Dark grain/vorlauf question

[pennengr]

I'm planning to brew a recipe this weekend that calls for dark grain additions during the vorlauf rather than during the mash. I usually do a full volume mash and then raise the temperature to 168 for a mash out. Would it make sense to add these dark grains rights as I begin heating up to 168?

Thanks.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Dark grains at the end of the mash is an old weird homebrew community wisdom thing that just won't die. Just mash with them, it'll be fine.

 

[wobdee]

My last dark lager i added my Carafa III in the last 10 min of the mash before I pulled my basket and the beer turned out a little lighter colored than previous beers. Still waiting to taste it to see if it makes a difference.

 

[pennengr]

Thanks. I've done it the other way lots of times, but figures I would give it a shot based on Strong's recent book.

 

[MerlinWerks]

I'm reading that book now as well and he advocates holding off on any grains that don't require mashing until the end, so most notably crystal/roast.

I'm curious to try this too. Just trying to figure out the pH implications. If you get your base mash in the correct range then add crystal/roast grains for the last 20 - 30 minutes (I BIAB so no sparge or vorlauf time) will they end up driving the kettle pH too low?

 

[Yooper]

If you get your base mash in the correct range then add crystal/roast grains for the last 20 - 30 minutes (I BIAB so no sparge or vorlauf) will they end up driving the kettle pH too low?

Yes, that could happen.

 

[MerlinWerks]

Thanks Yooper.

Would the same thing be true using a traditional system with mash-out, vorlauf and sparge? If so, I wonder how Gordon manages his pH? I think he does his additions during vorlauf/sparge.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper.

Would the same thing be true using a traditional system with mash-out, vorlauf and sparge? If so, I wonder how Gordon manages his pH? I think he does his additions during vorlauf/sparge.

You know, I meant to ask him about that when I saw him but I was drinking (imagine!) and forgot totally about that.

But yes, adding the grains late means that while the mash pH may be spot on, the kettle pH could definitely drop. I believe that mabrungard and AJdeLange have spoken about that in the Brew Science area of the forum and give their opinions on it.

I don't add my dark grains late, but I make few stouts. I make quite a few beers with crystal malt, like American ambers, and the crystal grains and what little dark grains there are go into the mash and I target a mash pH of 5.4ish.

I know that Gordon makes fantastic beers, so I can't argue with him.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I did a light vanilla porter with late dark grain additions. The main purpose was to mellow out the roastiness of the dark grains (roasted barley, black patent, C80). I added them for the last 15 min of the mash along with some lime to balance the pH. The color ended up fine but initially the finished beer tasted a little watery. After a few more weeks, though, the flavors melded well and it was better. It mellowed the roastiness a little more than I wanted. I'll probably do 30 min next time. For pH adjustment, I entered everything into Bru'nWater as if it were all being mashed at once. This gave me the quantity if lime, which I then added with the dark grains. I monitored pH for the entire mash and it was fine.

 

[pennengr]

So I brewed Strong's Modern London Porter today, using the balanced brown water profile from Bru'nwater. I mashed the Maris Otter, Munich and Brown malts for 60 min at 153, added the Crystal and Chocolate malts, and ramped up to 168 for a 10 min hold.

pH's were 5.1/5.2 at 0 min, 5.3/5.4 at 55 min, and 5.2/5.3 after adding the dark malts.

 

[duelerx]

So I brewed Strong's Modern London Porter today, using the balanced brown water profile from Bru'nwater. I mashed the Maris Otter, Munich and Brown malts for 60 min at 153, added the Crystal and Chocolate malts, and ramped up to 168 for a 10 min hold.

pH's were 5.1/5.2 at 0 min, 5.3/5.4 at 55 min, and 5.2/5.3 after adding the dark malts.

Do you recommend adding everything into Bru'nWater as if it were all being mashed at once or just adding the base malts? I am still little confuse about ph when adding dark malts at vourlauf as Gordon Strong suggests.

 

[pennengr]

I've gone back to tossing it all in at once.

 

[Calichusetts]

I also keep them in the entire mash. Most of my darker beers I want pitch-black anyway (big stouts and imperial browns, etc) but I always though that you don't add them because of an added bitterness/roastiness. If that is the case, adjust the IBUs or use smaller amounts

Also, I'm not an over-the-top scientific brewer, but I do like to keep my mash within a certain ph range, and its just easier to add them at the start when I'm making recipes and predicting the ph.