Danish Farmhouse Ale - 2 recipes from 1868

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

The_Antikveik

Wort maker's alter ego
Joined
Dec 28, 2021
Messages
62
Reaction score
55
I'd be interested in what was done to limit attenuation to 40%. I can't see any yeast willingly leaving that much sugar behind, assuming it was mostly fermentable.

The frequent skimming for the smoked superlight ale is probably to limit yeast/fermentation, to promote a 'stuck fermentation'. I guess the ale was consumed fairly quickly rather than being stored for any length of time. Being so light and nutritious it probably went off in no time; like genuine liquid bread, best consumed on the day!
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
4,311
Location
Bremen
I'd be interested in what was done to limit attenuation to 40%. I can't see any yeast willingly leaving that much sugar behind, assuming it was mostly fermentable.

The frequent skimming for the smoked superlight ale is probably to limit yeast/fermentation, to promote a 'stuck fermentation'. I guess the ale was consumed fairly quickly rather than being stored for any length of time. Being so light and nutritious it probably went off in no time; like genuine liquid bread, best consumed on the day!
There are yeasts that only ferment up to a real low amount of alcohol, but obviously, as soon as they give up, other yeasts take over and continue to ferment.

I'm also curious what they did to the barrels to stop the fermentation. My guess is also that they drank it rather quickly and that it was stored as cold as possible. Probably also more of a winter thing for them.
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Yes, it's written those beers were meant to be consumed very fresh, ready in a week after the brewday. Very sweet and lightly hopped, they were indeed prone to spoiling. Although, I see there was a style where the spoilage was expected and valued: the Gammeltøl, which they added sugar to when drinking, to balance out lactic and acetic sourness.
I've read the cask part finally, what I understand is that they filled the fermentation cask in such a way that every time it was tapped the pressure extruded a part of yeast (so, the suggested barm skimming emulates this process in a way). It seems like a proper technique to stall fermentation, I wonder why S. Wrisberg (the author) himself didn't manage to recreate the super low attenuation. Need to try that myself. I like sweet beers, and I don't expect them to be cloying with such a low OG.
 

monkeymath

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2019
Messages
575
Reaction score
594
Based on what I've read, if you just take "any random yeast from the wild", then more likely than not it attenuates poorly and cannot deal with alcohol. Modern beer yeast is the result of a long history of selection by humans. And most strains that we use today derive from just a few common ancestors that were apparently shared and distributed.
So if there was a farmhouse brewing culture secluded from commercial/industrial operations, relying on their own yeasts, then I'd vaguely expect such poor attenuation. If lactobacillus gets in on the fun, which again: I would expect, and sours the wort early on, then that'll make it even harder for the yeast.

But I would like to emphasize my knowledge on yeast is practically negligible.

(And yes, I know Lambic is made from wild organisms and it's dry AF, but it takes several years and a rather elaborate process.)
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Need to note, it's not really farmhouse practices that's described in the book. Rather it's full-fledged 19th century industry, before the advent of pilsners. Those beers in question were produced by breweries, not by homesteads.
 

McMullan

wort maker
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
1,365
Ethanol production is a wild type trait for our favoured yeasts. It's of great ecological importance for yeast in that it gives them a competitive advantage in the wild. Even before commercial/industrial operations were engineered ethanol was always the desired product for brewers, for that 'spiritual high'. So I'd say Danish farmhouse brewers in the 19th century, and much before then, were more likely pitching effective brewer's yeast comparable to what we use today, as evidenced by the description of the superlight smoked ale. The challenge to produce a light nutritious ale seems to have been restraining what appear to have been highly active, top-cropping yeast.

Edit: Based on it actually being a 19th century industry (in 'rural' Denmark) we can assume, with even more confidence, they were pitching proper brewer's yeast, I'd say.
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Yes, there's no doubts they used proper brewers yeast and not some other bugs to ferment their beers (though bugs, like Lactos, were sometimes also employed in addition). The author says those low-attenuating strains have long been lost and suggests the lowest-fermenting modern yeasts (WLP002, S-33 etc.) as substitutes.
 

McMullan

wort maker
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
1,365
There are yeasts that only ferment up to a real low amount of alcohol, but obviously, as soon as they give up, other yeasts take over and continue to ferment.

The phrase 'wild yeast' often refers to mixed microbial communities in environmental samples, not necessarily just yeast as such. Compared with a well-pitched brewery fermentation, spontaneous fermentations are usually much slower processes, depending on what's being consumed as fermentable sugar source and what's consuming it. However, Saccharomyces species typically have quite high ethanol tolerances. Although it's true that in most cases ethanol levels in nature are low, about 0.5% or so, this has more to do with constraints on yeast cell density and limited access to sugars, e.g. in intact fruits, not low ethanol tolerance. Although fermentation of a brewer's barley wort is a controlled, artificial environment, in nature it isn't unusual to find patches of overripe fermenting fruit containing in excess of 8% ethanol. I doubt there's ever been a lack of decent fermentation yeasts, since the dawn of human civilisation.
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
4,311
Location
Bremen
The phrase 'wild yeast' often refers to mixed microbial communities in environmental samples, not necessarily just yeast as such. Compared with a well-pitched brewery fermentation, spontaneous fermentations are usually much slower processes, depending on what's being consumed as fermentable sugar source and what's consuming it. However, Saccharomyces species typically have quite high ethanol tolerances. Although it's true that in most cases ethanol levels in nature are low, about 0.5% or so, this has more to do with constraints on yeast cell density and limited access to sugars, e.g. in intact fruits, not low ethanol tolerance. Although fermentation of a brewer's barley wort is a controlled, artificial environment, in nature it isn't unusual to find patches of overripe fermenting fruit containing in excess of 8% ethanol. I doubt there's ever been a lack of decent fermentation yeasts, since the dawn of human civilisation.
Why did you quote me? I do not see a connection between the quoted text and your answer.
 

ba-brewer

I'm not Zog, I'm Leroi
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
14,894
Reaction score
8,271
Location
sf Bay Area
Do I have some that I sent to @Protos earlier. They are the most interesting of them all. They are in Danish but in ( ) I provide some clarifying termology and suggestions for substitution. If you don't like what you see just tell me and I will add a few more in here for you and others to pick from.

25 LITER RABESHAVE LAGERØL
3,4 kg Toradet malt (two-row. You can sub it out with Pilsner malt.)
2,3 kg Seksradet malt (six-row. Note: This is a pretty special thing in Denmark, as 6-row is unavailable here for homebrewers, it is only used as feed barley for pigs here)
57 gram Humle (the hops refered to is either Saaz, Spalt or Mittelfrueh. Pick your favourite)
Original gravity 1055
Final gravity 1023 (high FG because it was probably transfered into a lagering vessel to carbonate)

25 LITER THOR LAGERØL
4,2 kg Lagermalt (lagermalt was a danish malt that is not made anymore. You can substutite it with a 50/50 of Light Munich and Pilsner malt)
0,4 kg Karamelmalt (Low-to-Mid colour caramel malt, pick your favourite really)
7,5 gram Farvemalt (a roasted malt or barley)
50 gram Humle (same as above)
Original gravity 1042
Final gravity until fermentation stops. (No final gravity was provided in the recipe)

25 LITER WIIBROE PILSNERØL
4,7 kg Pilsnermalt
120 gram Engelsk malt (this English malt is not disclosed, but it is very likely a brown malt or a dark caramel malt)
21 gram Hallertauer humle (Mittelfrueh specifically)
22 gram Ausha humle (this is a hop variety which is extinct and no information is provided by the author, but some literature refer to Ausha as a Danish variety bred from a British hop, so try use a UK hop)
Original gravity 1042
Final gravity 1015

PROCESS
A little note before the process description: Danish "Bavarian" (e.i. Lager) breweries did decoction mashing for their beers. However if you want to skip decoction I recommend adding 4-5% of Melanoidin Malt, to compensate.

Regarding mashing, you can decide on either doing a traditional decoction mash or a modern step mash. If you are trying to recreate these recipes I would not use a single infusion as it would be far from how most Lager and Pilsners are being brewed nowadays here in Denmark.
If you plan on decocting, follow your favourite decoction method (single, double or triple, all three have been used in Danish brewing). If it is your first time decocting I recommend reading Meanbrews Premium Czech Pilsner procedure on decocting. He explains it pretty well.
Mashing Schedule:
  1. Optional: Acid Rest @ 40C for 40 mins.
  2. Protein Rest @ 50C for 30 mins.
  3. Alpha Rest @ 62-65C for 60 mins.
  4. Mash out @ 72C for 15 mins.
In terms of boiling, traditionally it was a 2 hour boil, but you can easily do a standard 1 boil and adjust your hops to fit with the bitterness.
Hop Schedule:
  1. Full Hop dose @ Beginning of boil.
  2. For Wiibroe: Ausha Hops as Dry Hop.
Fermentation for Danish Lagers and Pilsners has changed a lot since its inception but I will provide the traditional schedule and vessels used. A fun note, I used finished my education at a large Danish Brewery (for Danish standards it was large) and they still fermented at the traditional temperatures even thou they had pressure vessels and modern yeast to work with. Just to show that breweries tend to be conservative in their production method and it was really cold in winter there!
Fermentation schedule:
  1. Primary Fermentation @ 8-9C for 8-12 days or until fermentation is done.
  2. Optional: Diacetyl Rest @ 14C for 2-3 days.
  3. Cold Crash @ 4C for 2-4 days.
  4. Rake into Lagering Vessel (to get it off the yeast).
  5. Lagering Rest @ 4C for 3-5 months (taste along the way and begin to drink it when you think it is in its prime).
My recommendation here is to do a open fermentation. As it is the most traditional way and it is a fun thing to do. I love watching the krausen grow and smelling the fermentation. You can easily do this in a large soup pot that is 5l larger then your aimed batch size. You clean the soup pot with some lye or caustic soda followed with an acid rinse and a disinfectant at the very end.
Open vessel cleaning schedule:
  1. Caustic Clean: Make a 1% solution of Lye or a 2% solution of Caustic Soda @ 80C and let it soak for 30 mins (In some countries Lye and Caustic Soda can be the same thing, but often Lye has some added chemicals that are more aggressive. 1% solution means 1ml to a 100ml. If you have a water boiler you can reach the 80C easily).
  2. Rinse out with hot water.
  3. Acid Clean: Make a 2% solution of your favourite Acid CIP product with cold water and let it soak for 20 mins (I use Distilled Vinegar, it is cheap and effective. However other ones on the market are Chemipro CIP, Five Star SaniClean, etc.).
  4. Rinse out with cold water.
  5. Soak with your favourite sanitiser product (StarSan, Oxi, etc.).
  6. Optional: If your favourite sanitiser requires a rinse, do a rinse.

I hope this provides with a potential recipe, otherwise as written at the very top just ask for some more recipes.
Thanks again for the detailed reply and recipes.

I brewed the RABESHAVE LAGERØL yesterday. I went the melanoidin route but did do a stepped mash process starting with a protein rest. I had a good boil-off so my gravity was a bit high at 1056 but close enough. Color was a very light gold.

I will not do an open ferment but I will transfer the wort to a keg prior to final gravity to naturally carb while doing a diacetyl rest.

This was my grain bill for 4 US gal and 70%BHE, was suppose to be 1054 and ~20IBU
5lb Viking Pilsner
3lb Canada Malting 6row
6oz melanoidin malt
30gm hallertau MF 60min
WY2042 Danish Lager Yeast
IMG_3673 - Copy.JPG
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Could be nice to compare our Lagerøls here after they're ready!

UPD: Ah, I see, we've brewed different Lagers: yours from Rabeshave and mine from Thor. Anyway, a nice idea to post here our results when we have them ready!
 
Last edited:

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
Thanks again for the detailed reply and recipes.

I brewed the RABESHAVE LAGERØL yesterday. I went the melanoidin route but did do a stepped mash process starting with a protein rest. I had a good boil-off so my gravity was a bit high at 1056 but close enough. Color was a very light gold.

I will not do an open ferment but I will transfer the wort to a keg prior to final gravity to naturally carb while doing a diacetyl rest.

This was my grain bill for 4 US gal and 70%BHE, was suppose to be 1054 and ~20IBU
5lb Viking Pilsner
3lb Canada Malting 6row
6oz melanoidin malt
30gm hallertau MF 60min
WY2042 Danish Lager Yeast
View attachment 757259
What a beautiful wort you have there! I really love the look of it.
I cannot wait to see tasting notes from all you guys. :)

I am happy to see the recipe notes were useful.
Sorry I haven't been on or replied lately, I have been at a brewer course, which I passed.
 

ba-brewer

I'm not Zog, I'm Leroi
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
14,894
Reaction score
8,271
Location
sf Bay Area
What a beautiful wort you have there! I really love the look of it.
I cannot wait to see tasting notes from all you guys. :)

I am happy to see the recipe notes were useful.
Sorry I haven't been on or replied lately, I have been at a brewer course, which I passed.
Congratulation on your success passing the brewers course.

The beer got kegged on day 5 when it was at ~90% attenuated and has been spunding at 20psi for 6 days now. It is finally starting to slow so I will let it go a few more days before I lager it. Once I tap the keg in 6 or 8 weeks I will post a pic and comments.

I bought enough grain to do the RABESHAVE LAGERØL and THOR LAGERØL so I will be doing the Thor recipe soon while I still have fresh yeast from the first one.
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Congratulations, Knox!

Meanwhile, my Thor Lager and Wiibroe Pilsner are lagering, and yesterday I brewed Vestindisk Skibsøl 1899 (Rauchmalz + MJ M10 Workhorse, never thought such a combination was ever possible!), and Dobbelt Bitterøl stands in line.
If I ever figure out how to gain a 20-40% attenuation (Lallemand says it's possible if I mash at 80-85°C, I struggle to believe that, but as long as that comes from no other than LALLEMAND, I gonna try), I'll brew Hvidtøl and the weaker Skibsøl from the book as well. This thread is definitely going to have a lot of new postings from us!
 
Last edited:

J.Miller

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
26
Reaction score
7
Location
Wisconsin
Thanks all, for a great thread!
I'm soon going to brew the Dobbelt Bitterøl, or another Bitterøl recipe provided. Any suggestions for a water chemistry profile? I plan on using RO water, or RO diluted well water from my home, and added minerals depending on the profile.
When I read this: "Danes have always preferred sweeter beers with more of a mouthfeel", I was convienced to do this. After all, I am part Danish!
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
Thanks all, for a great thread!
I'm soon going to brew the Dobbelt Bitterøl, or another Bitterøl recipe provided. Any suggestions for a water chemistry profile? I plan on using RO water, or RO diluted well water from my home, and added minerals depending on the profile.
When I read this: "Danes have always preferred sweeter beers with more of a mouthfeel", I was convienced to do this. After all, I am part Danish!
Danish water is famously chalky and minerally. Here is a table of an average Danish water composition. I sometime use my tap water here for brewing because we don't use chlorides in water treatment. It often makes for pretty hoppy and dry beers.

So I would recommend use a malty water profile, historically Danish brewers did a lot of tricks to get a favourable water profile. :)
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Great source, Knox, thanks!
J. Miller, when I was searching for water profiles for my Danish Beers, I found a great collection of water profiles from different countries at Brewer's Friend. I use one of the listed Copenhagen profiles.
It closely matches my own tap water profile without the need of adding any salts. I just boil it.
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Here is my report on brewing one of the recipes kindly provided by Knox in this thread.

WIIBROE PILSNERØL 1939.
My brewing volume is non-standard, so I'd rather provide percents and IBU instead of weights.

wiibroe.jpg


OG: 1.042, FG: 1.007
ABV: 4.6%, IBU: 12+
Water profile: Bru'n Yellow Dry (Ca 50, Mg 10, Na 4, SO 106, Cl 44)

Fuglsang Pilsner (DNK) - 98%
Simpsons Dark Crystal (GBR) - 2%

Hallertauer Mitelfrüh α4.3 (DEU) - 12 IBU @90'
Golding α4.3 (GBR) - dry hop, same weight as H. Mf. for the last 7 days of Lagerization.

Fermentis S-23 yeast, sprinkled dry

Double decoction mash: 30'@50°C - 60'@62°C - 15'@70°C
Primary 14 Days @12°C
Lagering 2 Months @0°-4°C
Carbonation 2.2v

I didn't expect much from this beer that looked like a sort of German Helles with an English touch, buy boy what a beer I've got now! All the good descriptors standardly applied to an excellent Lager are totally applyable here. Crisp. Light. Grainy-sweet. Aromatic. Neutral: not acidic, not bitter, not cloying. Balanced and perfect. It's also my only Lager of the season where S-23 gave a slight and pleasant Sulphury flavour (I weirldly love a Sulphur whiff and won't mind there was a bit more of it). A perfect Lager to my taste, period.
This winter I brewed no more no less than 25 different Lagers (brewing smaller batches greatly helps to maintain diversity in your beer cellar), a third of them being Light Lagers in the wein of Pilsner or Helles. This Wiibroe Pilsner is one of my two personal winners among them (another one being my Suidwestafrikanisches Helles, inspired by a Windhoek Special Lager clone from the Szamatulski's book, hopped with South African hops that surprisingly turned out to be as good as German).
I was surprised that I liked very much such a low hopping rate: almost twice as low as in my lowest-hopped Helles. I think in my next brews I might want to explore and reconsider my hopping preferences.
I had great expectations regarding my German and German-type Pilsners (to the making of which I dedicated much more effort than to this one), but this brew is definitely superior to them. During my next tasting / brewlog analyzing sessions I gotta find out, why.


***
ANNOUNCEMENT
My next beer from the Danish Series: THOR LAGERØL 1933.
And even some more after it.
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
4,311
Location
Bremen
Here is my report on brewing one of the recipes kindly provided by Knox in this thread.

WIIBROE PILSNERØL 1939.
My brewing volume is non-standard, so I'd rather provide percents and IBU instead of weights.

View attachment 765187

OG: 1.042, FG: 1.007
ABV: 4.6%, IBU: 12+
Water profile: Bru'n Yellow Dry (Ca 50, Mg 10, Na 4, SO 106, Cl 44)

Fuglsang Pilsner (DNK) - 98%
Simpsons Dark Crystal (GBR) - 2%

Hallertauer Mitelfrüh α4.3 (DEU) - 12 IBU @90'
Golding α4.3 (GBR) - dry hop, same weight as H. Mf. for the last 7 days of Lagerization.

Fermentis S-23 yeast, sprinkled dry

Double decoction mash: 30'@50°C - 60'@62°C - 15'@70°C
Primary 14 Days @12°C
Lagering 2 Months @0°-4°C
Carbonation 2.2v

I didn't expect much from this beer that looked like a sort of German Helles with an English touch, buy boy what a beer I've got now! All the good descriptors standardly applied to an excellent Lager are totally applyable here. Crisp. Light. Grainy-sweet. Aromatic. Neutral: not acidic, not bitter, not cloying. Balanced and perfect. It's also my only Lager of the season where S-23 gave a slight and pleasant Sulphury flavour (I weirldly love a Sulphur whiff and won't mind there was a bit more of it). A perfect Lager to my taste, period.
This winter I brewed no more no less than 25 different Lagers (brewing smaller batches greatly helps to maintain diversity in your beer cellar), a third of them being Light Lagers in the wein of Pilsner or Helles. This Wiibroe Pilsner is one of my two personal winners among them (another one being my Suidwestafrikanisches Helles, inspired by a Windhoek Special Lager clone from the Szamatulski's book, hopped with South African hops that surprisingly turned out to be as good as German).
I was surprised that I liked very much such a low hopping rate: almost twice as low as in my lowest-hopped Helles. I think in my next brews I might want to explore and reconsider my hopping preferences.
I had great expectations regarding my German and German-type Pilsners (to the making of which I dedicated much more effort than to this one), but this brew is definitely superior to them. During my next tasting / brewlog analyzing sessions I gotta find out, why.


***
ANNOUNCEMENT
My next beer from the Danish Series: THOR LAGERØL 1933.
And even some more after it.
Sounds good to me, I love "underhopped" light lagers. I buy Coors from time to time.

How is the foam on this one? My low hop beats often suffer often from bad head retention...
 
Last edited:

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
On the pic, it's the second round poured slowly and cautiously into the wet glass, so the foam is low.
When I poured the first bottle into the dry glass the foam rose like 15 cm high and I had to slurp it out to make room for the beer.
In my book, foam is a very insignificant byproduct, so frankly I never make a notice how thick it is or how long does it last. Can say just that I didn't notice anything unusual with it.
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Here comes another result of the fruitful conversation in this thread:

THOR LAGERØL 1933.
My brewing volume is non-standard, so I'd rather provide percents and IBU instead of weights.

thor_resize.jpg


OG: 1.045, FG: 1.009
ABV: 5%, IBU: 25
Water profile: Ca 30, SO 28, Cl 32

Fuglsang Pilsner (DNK) - 57%
Viking Munich (FIN) - 34%
Ireks Karamell Eiche, which is Crystal 10°L (DEU) - 8.8 %
Weyermann Carafa Spezial III (DEU) - 0.2%

Hallertauer Tradition α6 (DEU) - 25 IBU @90'

Fermentis S-23 yeast, cake from the Wiibroe Pilsner above

Double decoction mash: 30'@50°C - 60'@63°C - 45'@72°C
Primary 14 Days @12°C
Lagering 2 Months @0°-4°C
Carbonation 2.3v. Foamy head noticeably weaker than in Wiibroe Pilsner.

If the Wiibroe Pilsner above was essentially a Helles with a slight English touch, this Danish Lager is a not-so-distant relative of Märzen. I love this beer. It's almost as good as Wiibroe Pilsner. The only thing that prevented it to be on-par with the Pilsner was my choise of hops: for unknown reasons I decided to hop it with Hallertauer Tradition instead of Saazer or Spalter or Mittelfrüh, as the recipe book suggested. Tradition is a nice hop with a lot of proper applications, but it's not an identical substitute to its noble ancestors Mittelfrüh and Saazer, and in this beer it tastes like a bit too clean and low in hop flavour. With the true noble hops, I'm used to have some hop flavour transferred to the final beer even from a single bitterning addition, while with Tradition that didn't occur: just bitterness remained (although a good smooth kind of bitterness). Even so, my another Danish Lager came out better than my German-style Lagery concoctions, again, and I wonder why. Danish malt being better than Weyermann's? Doubt it. I just don't know.
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
Great to see the results @Protos, I have long awaited them. I am happy you enjoyed my translations and interpretation of the beers.

Golding α4.3 (GBR) - dry hop, same weight as H. Mf. for the last 7 days of Lagerization.
That is my new favourite term! :)

I was surprised that I liked very much such a low hopping rate: almost twice as low as in my lowest-hopped Helles. I think in my next brews I might want to explore and reconsider my hopping preferences.
I have found that with noble hops, old American varities and classic British hops, low hopping rates often produce a more refined flavour. It is as if they intermingle better with the malts and the residual flavours the yeast might bring forth.

I must say that the Thor Lager does seem really good and beautifully clear!
Funny thing, I worked at the brewery that owns the brand for Thor. The brewery itself does not exist any more, it and a series of other breweries were closed down in the 90' and early 00'. Now Thor's lager is simply a variation of the brewery's main lager recipe.
As for the H. tradition hop choice, if I have to be honest, I think you picked a pretty representative hop that is appropriate of the time.

Looking forward to see some more beers from you! :)
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Thank you Knox! Your recipes and advices and your introduction of the Wrisberg's book has been a great contribution to this forum.
The Danish recipes turned out to be a fantastic alternative, extremely useful when I'm getting a bit tired (never for long though) of my usual English/German diet but don't feel like getting lost in the catpissed fragrant jungles of the New World.
At the moment, I have a Skibsol bottle-conditioning, a Hvidtol lagering, a weak Skibsol planned, and a slew or already-calculated recipes to brew the next autumn.

Lagerization
That was translated from French 😜

As for the H. tradition hop choice, if I have to be honest, I think you picked a pretty representative hop that is appropriate of the time.
I thought that Tradition was bred not earlier than in the 1990s? Wrisberg in his book recommends Mitt., Tett. or Saaz.
 
Last edited:

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
I thought that Tradition was bred not earlier than in the 1990s? Wrisberg in his book recommends Mitt., Tett. or Saaz.
I apologize for the late response! I didn't notice the question here at the bottom! You are right it was first commercially available in 1989, but I think the flavour and aroma profile is close to that of Saaz and Tettnanger, maybe a bit muted in comparison to the two of them. That is what I meant, the aroma and flavour profile is representative of the time. :)

Wow, just discovered this thread. Pretty awesome. Gonna have to get some Viking malt and have a try.

@Knox Really interesting posts!
Tell us which you want to try! :)
 

J.Miller

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
26
Reaction score
7
Location
Wisconsin
My Bitterøl brew ingredients and results: 48% Bestmalz Munich 6°L, 48% Bestmalz Pilsner 2°L, 4% Roasted Barley 550°L, 16 IBU of Spalter Select (60 min.), 3 IBU of Mittlefrueh (5 min.), 75ppm Ca, 3 Mg,
28 Na, 80 Cl, 85 So, 67 HCO, S-33 yeast. Mash: 152°F 60 min., 170°F 5 min. + sparge, mash pH 5.61. Boil: 60 min. , post-boil pH 5.47, O.G. 1.047. Fermentation: 58°F 8 days, 62°F 1 day, 65°F 5 days, 39°F 3 days, F.G. 1.017 apparent attenuation 63%, abv 3.9%, post-fermentation pH 4.48, SRM 21 to 25 (I guess), kegged at ±2.4 vol. co2, aged at about 58°F in keg for 4 weeks (ran out of room in my keezer) before tasting. Aroma and taste: roasted barley and munich aromas, very clear, slight head and lacing, I am really pleased with the medium body and mouthfeel (for 3.9% abv), medium roasty and medium malty sweet tasting. My taste perception is, well, I'll never be a beer judge, but I like how the Bitterøl turned out. I intended to brew a Dobbelt Bitterøl, but I'm ok with it.

Jeff
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
My Bitterøl brew ingredients and results: 48% Bestmalz Munich 6°L, 48% Bestmalz Pilsner 2°L, 4% Roasted Barley 550°L, 16 IBU of Spalter Select (60 min.), 3 IBU of Mittlefrueh (5 min.), 75ppm Ca, 3 Mg,
28 Na, 80 Cl, 85 So, 67 HCO, S-33 yeast. Mash: 152°F 60 min., 170°F 5 min. + sparge, mash pH 5.61. Boil: 60 min. , post-boil pH 5.47, O.G. 1.047. Fermentation: 58°F 8 days, 62°F 1 day, 65°F 5 days, 39°F 3 days, F.G. 1.017 apparent attenuation 63%, abv 3.9%, post-fermentation pH 4.48, SRM 21 to 25 (I guess), kegged at ±2.4 vol. co2, aged at about 58°F in keg for 4 weeks (ran out of room in my keezer) before tasting. Aroma and taste: roasted barley and munich aromas, very clear, slight head and lacing, I am really pleased with the medium body and mouthfeel (for 3.9% abv), medium roasty and medium malty sweet tasting. My taste perception is, well, I'll never be a beer judge, but I like how the Bitterøl turned out. I intended to brew a Dobbelt Bitterøl, but I'm ok with it.

Jeff
Hey Jeff,
Happy to see you tried out the Bitterøl, and hey, having a small beer is always great to have on tap. :p
To me Bitterøl have always felt a bit like a small bock mixed with a traditional stout.
 

kmarkstevens

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Feb 19, 2017
Messages
837
Reaction score
1,031
Long boring story short, my niece teaches in an international school in Lithuania. Whilst not able to acquire authentic Lithuanian farmhouse yeast, I got the next best thing being Lithuanian dry bread yeast. Seems to me it should be something decent to try with these Danish legacy recipes. What think you?

I just saw this recipe on MoreBeer for Finnish Sahti: Sahti Malt - Viking Malt | MoreBeer
What about using Viking Sahti malt for the Danish traditional recipes? Anyone tried that?

My Finland collogues had these comments tonight:
  1. I have too much experience on Sahti from my college years. it was cost efficient and fairly ok
    🙂
  2. There is a famous recipe known by the college students that is related to how to make Sahti taste ok. So you buy 6 packs of these: Amazon.com : 4 Boxes x 36g of Leaf Sisu Xylitol - Original - Finnish - Licorice - Pastilles - Lozenges - Drops - Dragees - Candies - Sweets : Grocery & Gourmet Food
  3. Really good Sahti is ok, medium quality beer is always better than best Sahti
  4. Lithuanian yeast could be almost the same, we share a lot with Lithuania when it comes to drinking habits
    🙂
:ban:
 
Last edited:

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
If you have connections with Lithuania, I may suggest to try to procure from there, besides local yeasts, another unique local thing: Lithuanian Red Fermented Rye Malt.
It's not like any other malt. Very strong Pumpernickel bready flavour, like Melanoidin malt on steroids, but not exactly the same flavour as in Melanoidin.
Up to 4% of it in any Roggenbier make wonders. And adding 8% to a 10% ABV Roggenwein (like I recently did) makes you immortal.
I think it won't be out of place in a Sahti too (though the Finnish Sahti Special Rye Blend is different from Lithuanian Fermented Rye).
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
4,311
Location
Bremen
Long boring story short, my niece teaches in an international school in Lithuania. Whilst not able to acquire authentic Lithuanian farmhouse yeast, I got the next best thing being Lithuanian dry bread yeast. Seems to me it should be something decent to try with these Danish legacy recipes. What think you?

I just saw this recipe on MoreBeer for Finnish Sahti: Sahti Malt - Viking Malt | MoreBeer
What about using Viking Sahti malt for the Danish traditional recipes? Anyone tried that?

My Finland collogues had these comments tonight:
  1. I have too much experience on Sahti from my college years. it was cost efficient and fairly ok
    🙂
  2. There is a famous recipe known by the college students that is related to how to make Sahti taste ok. So you buy 6 packs of these: Amazon.com : 4 Boxes x 36g of Leaf Sisu Xylitol - Original - Finnish - Licorice - Pastilles - Lozenges - Drops - Dragees - Candies - Sweets : Grocery & Gourmet Food
  3. Really good Sahti is ok, medium quality beer is always better than best Sahti
  4. Lithuanian yeast could be almost the same, we share a lot with Lithuania when it comes to drinking habits
    🙂
:ban:
Sounds disguuuuuuusting :D
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,786
Reaction score
4,311
Location
Bremen
If you have connections with Lithuania, I may suggest to try to procure from there, besides local yeasts, another unique local thing: Lithuanian Red Fermented Rye Malt.
It's not like any other malt. Very strong Pumpernickel bready flavour, like Melanoidin malt on steroids, but not exactly the same flavour as in Melanoidin.
Up to 4% of it in any Roggenbier make wonders. And adding 8% to a 10% ABV Roggenwein (like I recently did) makes you immortal.
I think it won't be out of place in a Sahti too (though the Finnish Sahti Special Rye Blend is different from Lithuanian Fermented Rye).
Wow that sounds super interesting. No online sources for that?
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
I don't know really if it's sold online, I got mine "offline". I think a very similar malt could be found in German baking stores, as Fermented Rye Malt is often used in baking Schwarzbrot. Don't know how it's called in German, though. In Lithuanian it's Fermentuotas Ruginis Salyklas.
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
Long boring story short, my niece teaches in an international school in Lithuania. Whilst not able to acquire authentic Lithuanian farmhouse yeast, I got the next best thing being Lithuanian dry bread yeast. Seems to me it should be something decent to try with these Danish legacy recipes. What think you?

I just saw this recipe on MoreBeer for Finnish Sahti: Sahti Malt - Viking Malt | MoreBeer
What about using Viking Sahti malt for the Danish traditional recipes? Anyone tried that?
I think the Lithuanian bread yeast would work fine in a gammeltøl or a daily beer as provided by Sørine. As long it doesn't provide too many banana-y flavours. I have read many notes from newspapers and brewing logs that banana aroma or flavour wasn't well recieved by the Danish public.

I was unable to find anything about the Sahti Malt, other then it is a malt blend. Do you know what it contains?
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
Sahti malt is actually a blend of a darker-shade Pale and I believe no more than 10-15% Dark Rye malt (toasted, not pre-fermented). I've tasted the real thing and tried to recreate it at home. Bleh, in both cases, to tell the truth.
Here's what I followed to make me some Finnish Dark Rye when I was blending my own Sahti malt: Toasting Rye Malt - Brewing Nordic
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
50
Reaction score
57
Sahti malt is actually a blend of a darker-shade Pale and I believe no more than 10-15% Dark Rye malt (toasted, not pre-fermented). I've tasted the real thing and tried to recreate it at home. Bleh, in both cases, to tell the truth.
Here's what I followed to make me some Finnish Dark Rye when I was blending my own Sahti malt: Toasting Rye Malt - Brewing Nordic
Sounds like they butched some batches and made a product out of it. Nothing too surprising, I have been to their Danish site and one of their production leads asked if I was interested in taking some 120 EBC munich (Not really munich at that point is it now) off their hands, their thermostate broke while kilning the malt, a full 30 ton batch :') I wonder if some of that went into that Sahti Malt? ;)
 

Protos

The Gulper
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
385
Reaction score
425
Location
Valle Lacrimarum
That well could be. Artisanal/rustic/farmhouse malts are such a thing: no established standards, no benchmarks to judge along, no experienced discernable customer base - so you may call "artisanal" any kitchensink mix and go well with it.
Nothing bad to say about the Viking Sahti malt itself, though: it's a nice cute little blend, if I get my hands on it again, I'd brew a Saison with it. In Sahti, I didnt like not the malt but the boozy cidery green flavour which the raw, unboiled, hop-less, bread-yeast-fermented raw ale had plenty. I don't know, maybe if I'd been drinking it since I was seven years old, I'd probably like it. Otherwise, it's an acquired taste, to say politely. YMMV.
 
Top