Dances With WLP080 Cream Ale

[Black Island Brewer]

Okay, so this might be one of those threads that goes nowhere. Or it might actually amount to something. Check back in a year and see.

I was perusing the White Labs homebrew yeast strains, and came across the Cream Ale yeast, which says:
"This is a blend of ale and lager yeast strains. The strains work together to create a clean, crisp, light American lager style ale. A pleasing estery aroma may be perceived from the ale yeast contribution. Hop flavors and bitterness are slightly subdued. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, from the lager yeast."

When I looked over the list of beer styles it rated a "4" for, there were quite a few I enjoy drinking, and since I've never used this strain, I thought it might be enjoyable (and enlightening) to make a project of it.
I'm a hack when it comes to yeast. I do whatever Mr. Malty or Beersmith says to do. I've made slants, but since I don't yet have a microscope or a hemocytometer, I don't know what kind of cell counts I'm actually getting, nor do I know if I'm getting much in the way of mutations.

When I started poking around the interwebs to see what I could learn about WLP080, I found very little. So, needing a challenge (and an excuse to get even deeper down the rabbit hole) I decided to see what I could do with this "hybrid" strain.

Rather than yeast rinsing, I'm going to start the project by making a larger than needed starter, and decanting a portion of it to make my next starter. Using Brewer's Friend's yeast calculator (which uses Kai's data and gives me the ability to estimate cell counts beyond single step 2L starters). I'm going to see if I can keep one vial going all year.
Hopefully early next year I can afford to get a microscope and a hemocytometer so I can actually look for cell counts and mutations (which I still have to teach myself how to do), but for now estimations and results will be what I'm working with.

I'm starting by making a Vienna Lager using the AG version of a Vienna from Brewing Classic Styles. To suppress the esters I'm going to pitch a bit more than double the rate for an ale (closer to a lager rate) and pitch colder than the bottom of the recommended range and ramp up over 7 days - 62F to 67F. I'm also going to underoxygenate from my usual 2LPM for 2 minutes. Not sure how much under, yet - open to suggestions.

I typically brew twice a month (limited by having 2 ferm chambers) and plan to try as many styles as I can.

So tomorrow is Day 1, the starter is working, and hopefully I won't lose interest before a year goes by!

I'd love to hear what you've done with this strain, and any ideas or thoughts you have.

 

[aryoung1980]

Good luck! Vienna's are one of my favorite styles.

I have not used this strain before. I am interested in having house strains. One for lagers and one for ales. So far WLP940 Mexican lager is my favorite. Still playing around with ale yeasts. I thought WLP028 Edinburgh would be my go to but I haven't been too happy with it. It's a strong fermenter though. Maybe I'll try the WLP080 too and compare results with you.

I'll be following your adventure.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[crownsdown]

I just pitched this into a cream ale I made over the weekend. I'll post back once it's carbed up.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Okay, so my first report back on this experiment.

My first batch was a Vienna Lager. I used Kai's pitch rate calculator to guestimate my cell growth, and made enough to decant some of the starter into a canning jar for another starter, and pitched. I pitched this hybrid at lager quantities - 150m cells/ml. Fermented starting at 62 and ramped up to 67 over 4 days (96 hours) using the BrewsBySmith ATC1000+ controller. Oxygenated at 2LPM for 2 min. Krausen was learly present after 12 hours, fermentation was unremarkable. Bottled today, finsihed 2 points higher than the expected 1.011 (using BeerSmith to estimate). Flavor was very clean, never got the sulpher mentioned in reviews of this strain. After first check on gravity (after 7 days, 1.014) there was some astrigency, which I attribute to oversparging (run-off gravity was 1.005) from not watchng my pre-boil volumes - jumped to 1/2 gallon too much at the last minute, so I had to boil off extra.

Used the decanted yeast to make an estimated starter of 348B cells, decanted 0.5 liters for next starter, and pitched an estimated 236B cells into a 5.5 gallon batch of 1.059 pale ale. After 7 days at 65F, gravity dropped to 1.013 (estimated FG of 1.011), and hydrometer sample has pronounced sulpher notes.

Onward...

 

[The10mmKid]

Subscribed.

I contacted White Labs about this very yeast and how it will behave over multiple pitches.

I was told that after 4-5 generations, the 'blend' will change.

They kinda hinted that the environment it is used will have the greatest affect.

I.E. If you are repitching at ale temps, the ale portion will increase. Lager temps, the Saccharomyces pastorianus portion will start to dominate.

I also split the starters as you do so keep us informed on the results.

'da Kid

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Okay, so a couple more data points.
The second beer, the pale ale, cleaned up all the sulfur notes present at 1 week. Bottled today, it is just a clean flavor, without any significant esters, although the dryhopping with Azacca could cover up or be blended with the esthers.

The vienna (1st beer) is bottled and carbonated, and I'll be taking it to my club this weekend for some BJCP judge impressions. To me it is very clean, but I'm not the best evaluator. My wife likes it, and she is a Vienna fan. I'll report back on the esters they perceive.

The third batch is a Kolsch grain bill, and fermented at 62 after pitching an estimated 150m/ml. and making extra to save for the next started. It's been there for a week, and there is no sulfur present. It went from 1.046 to 1.010 in that time. Again, very clean with no esters, but again, I will have my judge friends give feedback when it is done.

Making the SWAGs on the cell count seems to be working, I get what appears to be about the same amount of yeast each time. This third starter, however. took longer to ferment out on the stir plate, probably due to my house being colder. Along with a microscope and hemocytometer on my with list, I want a dorm fridge to control the starter temps with.

Batch four with this yeast strain will be an American Wheat.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I just bought this yeast, only bc my LHBS was slim on selection. Does it really have a clean lager flavor?

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I need to update my results, but in answer to your question, yes, it's pretty clean in the first few generations.

 

[TastyAdventure]

This yeast totally sucked for me. I used it in a Maibock and an Octoberfest. Back to back, so I couldn't really analyze my results before re pitching on the Octoberfest. (Healthy level of pitching, good starters on both.)
For both strains I followed a similar fermentation schedule. Pitched at 59 F, held at 60 for 2 days, and VERRRRY gradually ramped up to 68-70. I mean like 1 degree F per 12-24 hrs. So a majority of the actual fermentation (days 1-4) occurred between 59-64 F).

The very first tastes of both beers (5-7 days in bottles) were pretty clean and I had high hopes. Then over the first 1 -3 weeks, they developed a flavor similar to a Hefeweizen. Clovey. Spicy. Very weird considering how this yeast was advertised.
I bottled with corn sugar at 68 F...
I won't be using this again sadly.

 

[VictoryAle]

Tasty Adventure, I used to have this happen often with my brews (even when using clean yeasts), and I think it came down to infection. Maybe it's worth another try?

 

[TastyAdventure]

Infections are usually (or eventually become) apparent by even more extreme off flavors or a pellicle, right?