Dallas Water Analysis and Question

[asdtexas]

For you Dallas AG brewers, I just spoke with the city and they gave me the following all in parts per million (ppm)

Ca 22-54
Mg 1-12
Sodium 10-17
Sulfate 28-121
Chloride 31-105
Bicarbonate estimated to be 45 but have a call in with City Chemist
PH levels average 8.1-9.2

Two questions:
1. This suggests to me fairly alkaline water that is best suited for copper colored ales, up through porters and stouts; however, the general lack of calcium also suggests adding about a tsp of gypsum per 5 gallon batch

2. How will this water report impact brewing lighter colored beers in terms of making adjustments?

 

[desertbronze]

I entered the average of your numbers into Palmer's water spreadsheet. Your water is optimum for beers around 6 to 11 SRM. That water is not particularly alkaline, in my opinion. I have well water with bicarbonate around 289 ppm - I would trade for your water anytime.

As you noted, your water should be good for copper colored ales. I would add some calcium carbonate for porters and stouts. Maybe a little Epsom salt to raise the magnesium levels. I would add calcium chloride for malty beers and gypsum for hoppy beers. I would dilute with 20-50% distilled water for very pale beers.

This section from How to Brew explains recommended mineral levels for brewing. The link to the spreadsheet is at the end ofthe section.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

You might also check with other all grain brewers in your area regarding their recommendations for treating the local water.

 

[tealio]

Wow, old thread. Still here asdtexas? I'm still looking for other posts on this subject here on the border of Dallas / Richardson / Garland.

A) If I'm in Dallas county, does that mean I surely have Dallas water?

B) Do you think the levels change seasonally or are affected in periods of "severe droughts" like right now?

C) I use a refrigerator filter that I hook up to the hose bib outside with a goal to remove particles and rust, but does that affect any other levels? It is a cylindrical filter, not unique to a certain fridge,and reports it is good for 500 gal.

Come on back to the post!

 

[DeafSmith]

If you are in Richardson or Garland, you are probably getting water from the North Texas Municipal water district. See this link for a list of member cities and customers (scroll down to the bottom of the page):
http://www.ntmwd.com/watersystem.html

and this link for the water reports (use the Wylie report):
http://www.ntmwd.com/water_quality.html

I still haven't figured out why they report the same number for both bicarbonate (mg/L) and total alkalinity (mg/L as CaCO3) - they used to have a 61/50 ratio in reports from earlier years, which is what I would expect.

 

[jbsg02]

I got the water report for garland a couple of months ago, I can post it when I get home

 

[tealio]

Thanks local brewers!

I pay the City of Dallas for my water, have Dallas trash etc. - seems kind of stupid, but does that mean I have Dallas water? I live near Centennial and Plano Road.

I'm still trying to get around to do the WardLabs water test, so thanks for the info on the local water.

 

[DD2000GT]

I am in Garland and have gotten the water report a few times directly from the Garland Water Department (great folks there). I have found my water profile is great for Browns/Porters/Stouts, but not so much for the lighter and wheat ales without adding minerals. Luckily, I like browns.

Anyway, their email is on their main website and they are really accommodating to homebrewers who need this info. The report they send has more info than you would ever need.

 

[jbsg02]

I am in Garland and have gotten the water report a few times directly from the Garland Water Department (great folks there). I have found my water profile is great for Browns/Porters/Stouts, but not so much for the lighter and wheat ales without adding minerals. Luckily, I like browns.

Anyway, their email is on their main website and they are really accommodating to homebrewers who need this info. The report they send has more info than you would ever need.

I too am in Garland and got a report from April 2011, my bicarbonate is 113, is that pretty close to the reports you have been getting? Is that the main reason the dark beers come out so well, the alkalinity?

 

[DeafSmith]

I too am in Garland and got a report from April 2011, my bicarbonate is 113, is that pretty close to the reports you have been getting? Is that the main reason the dark beers come out so well, the alkalinity?

That's the same number as in the April, 2011 report from the North Texas Municipal Water District (Wylie):

http://www.ntmwd.com/water_quality.html

I wouldn't be surprised if your other numbers are also identical.

 

[DD2000GT]

I too am in Garland and got a report from April 2011, my bicarbonate is 113, is that pretty close to the reports you have been getting? Is that the main reason the dark beers come out so well, the alkalinity?

I got the report at home, I'll check and post up later, but that sounds about right from what I saw on my last report. To be honest I am not a pro at water evaluation - got the Palmer book and was using his cheat sheet chart to determine what style beers work best with my water profile.

 

[BetterSense]

I live in Richardson very near Garland; can someone share the Garland water report? And also tell me what it means because I have no idea...

 

[DeafSmith]

I live in Richardson very near Garland; can someone share the Garland water report? And also tell me what it means because I have no idea...

I believe Richardson and Garland (and several other towns, but NOT Dallas) all get their water from the North Texas Municipal Water District and I suspect the reports will all be the same as the NTMWD reports I have linked in my earlier posts above. As for what it means, it is a complicated subject - a good starting point is to read the chapter in "How to Brew" by John Palmer. If you don't have the book (3rd edition), the first edition is online - the water chapter is here:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

There are some who don't completely agree with the mineral levels that Palmer lists as desirable. For another viewpoint, see this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[DeafSmith]

I got the report at home, I'll check and post up later, but that sounds about right from what I saw on my last report. To be honest I am not a pro at water evaluation - got the Palmer book and was using his cheat sheet chart to determine what style beers work best with my water profile.

I'd be interested to know if your report lists the same number for bicarbonates (mg/L) and total alkalinity (mg/L as CaCO3) like the North Texas Municipal Water District reports do - I would expect a 61/50 ratio between the two numbers.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I live in Keller. Our water is worse than Dallas but definitely better suited for dark beer than lighter beers. Our biggest issue is the high level of chlorine/chloramine that has to be dealt with.

 

[DD2000GT]

Sorry for the delay. My report shows bicarbonates at 112, MG at 6.51, CA at 52.1, and total alkalinity at 91.9 mg/l as CaCo3. This is the treated numbers not the raw. According to my report, if I did not modify the water at all, it puts my base PH at 5.8 and about a 20 SRM color brew for the best type (Brown) based on Palmer's handy dandy chart. Luckily, that is my favorite style.

 

[DeafSmith]

Sorry for the delay. My report shows bicarbonates at 112, MG at 6.51, CA at 52.1, and total alkalinity at 91.9 mg/l as CaCo3. This is the treated numbers not the raw. According to my report, if I did not modify the water at all, it puts my base PH at 5.8 and about a 20 SRM color brew for the best type (Brown) based on Palmer's handy dandy chart. Luckily, that is my favorite style.

I don't know when you got your report, but those numbers are very close to the online NTMWD numbers for June, 2011 in the link I posted earlier. Those numbers are: HCO3 = 106, Mg = 4.17, Ca = 50.5, Total Alk. as CaCO3 = 106 (I believe this one is wrong - it should be 50/61 (106) = 87 if the HCO3 number is correct).

 

[Jimbob]

I just moved into Dallas from Austin, I'm off of Mockingbird and Greenville. I'm planning on brewing this or next weekend glad I found this post on the water I've been having fits trying to get through to someone at the city of Dallas to ask what the mineral counts are. Thanks for the help (without me even having to as)!!!

I'm planning on sending a couple of samples off to Ward Labs in the next week or so. Once I get the results back I'll post them up.

Jimbob

 

[asdtexas]

i am still here if it helps i live in university park

Using the numbers that i reported, the brown beers do best but we need to boost calcium i have had great luck with pale lagers by adjusting around the report and feel it is close enough to dial in your water
hope this helps

 

[Jimbob]

i am still here if it helps i live in university park

Using the numbers that i reported, the brown beers do best but we need to boost calcium i have had great luck with pale lagers by adjusting around the report and feel it is close enough to dial in your water
hope this helps

asdtexas
We should get together and hangout. I would really like to find some folks to share my beer with and possibly do some brew days together. Drop me a PM and lets see if we can work something out.

 

[tealio]

Jimbob-

Were you able to complete that ward labs water test a few months ago ?

Would love I check it out before I send in my own.

 

[Gavin C]

What are brewers in the DFW area adding to the water for ales. I have done stouts and browns up till now but completed NB Dead Ringer IPA last weekend. Added 1.5TBsp of 5.2pH to my 8G of strike water (5gal BIAB batches), in addition to half a Campden tablet and a charcoal filter on the tap water (Camco filter) to remove Chlorine. I am in the Las Colinas area and am waiting to hear back from the city of Dallas. This is my water source. Want to explore more about water chemistry but in the interim wanted to pick the brains with more know-how on this forum. I guess this is an old thread but didn't want to start a new one. New to the forum.

 

[asdtexas]

You need to get your calcium up. For ales I use 1 tsp of calcium sulphate. For lagers 1tsp of cacl

 

[Gavin C]

Thanks for the info. Is that the amount needed for 5gal batches?

 

[Gavin C]

I received a water analysis report from the city of Dallas. Three different taps were tested. The average for home water supply should be used (as per the provider's instructions). I am unable to attach the file (never tried on this forum before so not sure why) The mean values (pH non-arithmetic mean) are below

Results are
pH 8.53
Ca 2+ 43
Mg 2+ 7
Na+ 33
Cl- 38
SO4 2+ 83
Total Hardnes (CaCO3) 135

 

[Bassman2003]

I am in Arlington but the water is not that far away from Dallas water. The second post in the thread nailed it. I generally always add Calcium Chloride and will mix in Gypsum for more hoppy styles. I add Campden and acidify my sparge water with about 3.5ml of Lactic acid. For 5 gallon batches I use 100% city water for everything up to copper color and substitute 2 gallons of Wal-Mart RO water in the mash only for lighter beers.

 

[Gavin C]

+1 on the CaCl with a view to reaching a balanced profile

Just brewed yesterday and added 1tsp of CaCl in addition to filtering the water with a Camco RV filter, 1/3 Campden tablet and 1 tbsp of pH 5.2 in my strike water. Let the water sit overnight primarily to speed my brewday along (early morning 6am start to brews have me finished cleanup of the kitchen and kit by noon.)

I assume the lactic acid is to reduce the hardness value?

 

[Bassman2003]

The lactic acid is to reduce the pH of the sparge water. Ideally, you want to have the kettle pH to be below 6.

 

[Nagorg]

Not sure how much I would trust the municipality report. It may be good enough but if you're really interested in YOUR water profile, get it tested by Ward Lab's. I think the price is reasonable but if you and a local buddy or two split the cost it's even cheaper!

I can attribute the increased quality of my beers to several process improvements, one of which is water treatment! Absolutely worth it IMHO!

 

[Gavin C]

I'm sure Ward Labs would give me more short term accuracy. My concern however is that with the wild fluctuations in surface water temp of the supplying lakes here in DFW it is likely the Ward report will be obsolete come the winter months.

Perhaps this concern is ill-founded.

By contacting the city I get free info that is constantly updated. They get monthly reports. Hopefully if I ask nicely come winter I can get another report.

They were very helpful providing me with 3 separate tap reports supplying my water.

My conclusions seem to mesh with other DFW brewers and LHBS advice although they did say that additions were not crucial in the area given our good water.




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[Nagorg]

You are right about fluctuations but those are generally due more to changing supplies. Where I live, you can tell when the source has changed in the summer because soap takes longer to rinse off.

As to water additions not being crucial, I guess that depends on the style you are brewing. If you are brewing a stout then you are probably fine but a pale ale would benefit from a lower mash pH.

I can tell you that I have noticed an improvement in my beers since I started paying attention to these things.

 

[Gavin C]

I agree. The water chemistry may not be crucial but the same is true of so many things. Part of the joy garnered from this new hobby is exploring all the interesting facets of brewing and applying the theory to ones practice. Be it the microbiology of yeast, water chemistry, fermentation temperature regulation, enzymatic activity etc. these and more are topics that excite one's inner nerd.

For the time being I will continue with my additions. Should be tasting the first couple if batches with water additions in 4-6 weeks so hopefully I will see improvements. Not sure if my palate is refined enough though.


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[Gavin C]

Nagorg. What additions do you currently use for your water. Would value your input. Are you in the Nirth Texas area too?


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[Nagorg]

The additions really depend a lot on the grist bill but generally include small amounts of Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate) and sometimes small amounts of acidulated malt if the beer is particular light in color. Darker beers generally don't require acidulated malt as this is really just used to lower mash pH without blowing the other mineral ratios out of whack.

It's been mentioned several times on this forum (and possibly in this thread) but a great tool is the "EZ Water Calculator" spreadsheet. It's the simplest tool I have found. I will say that while a little daunting at first, "Bru'n Water" is really good and debatably better. I actually use both at times and Bru'n Water alerted me that I needed to lower the amount of some additions a time or two.

 

[Gavin C]

I've been using the calculator in beer smith. Trying to be as minimal as possible with any additions.

Aside from carbon filtering the water and 1/4 to 1/2 Campden tablet I have added 1tsp CaCl and the recommended amount of pH 5.2. My BIAB efficiency rose 10 points on my last brew to near 75. Obviously I can't attribute the rise to the CaCl but that was the only chemical change to my mash from prior batches. I used a slightly longer mash than before also so that may have been a more important factor.

Thanks for the advice


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[texaviator23]

In case anyone was looking for this.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

Anyone here brewing in McKinney?