Critique my Scottish ale please

[RodfatherX]

So, I decided I would try my hand at a Scottish ale. Kinda looking at other recipes and taking what I like as far a taste wise go and throwing something together. So.....be brutal


Scottish Export 80/-


Type: All Grain
Date: 6/16/2008
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Rodney
Boil Size: 6.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 73.22 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 10.46 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 7.85 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.23 %
4.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 2.62 %
1.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.63 %
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.75 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 22.7 IBU
0.25 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 6.8 IBU
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.22 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Bitterness: 31.2 IBU Calories: 236 cal/pint
Est Color: 18.3 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 9.56 lb
Sparge Water: 4.41 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 11.95 qt of water at 170.8 F 155.0 F

 

[ChrisKennedy]

Eh, that is a brown ale, not a Scottish Ale. Way too many hops and looks like too much roast. Probably good beer, but not really an 80 Schilling.

 

[RodfatherX]

Eh, that is a brown ale, not a Scottish Ale. Way too many hops and looks like too much roast. Probably good beer, but not really an 80 Schilling.

My guidelines on beersmith say I'm only 1 IBU and 1 SRM too high. For an 80 Schilling.

 

[Ølbart]

Yes, but you shouldn't have that much (if any) aroma hops, and certainly no dry hops. Keep the 60 minutes additions and drop the rest.

 

[devaspawn]

My understanding of a Scottish ale is that they used very few hops. They usually used only the hops that were grown in Scotland and because they were scarce enough, relatively speaking, they had to use them sparingly. Looks like yours would be a tasty beer but using 2 oz of hops in 5 gallon brew would have been considered extravagant and lavish.

I am a big fan of Scottish Ales. My recommendation would be to search out the origin of Scottish Ales. This will help you get an appreciation as to why the style came about and would help you craft your recipe. It's not all about the numbers. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but when I read about them for the first time it really opened my eyes. It also helped me recognize that for future brews that were of assorted styles that I should read up on their origination to better craft a recipe.

 

[jcb317]

My guidelines on beersmith say I'm only 1 IBU and 1 SRM too high. For an 80 Schilling.

Thats because the later hop additions contribute little as far as IBU calculations go, it will however impart a lot of flavor and aroma. I would also suggest keeping just the 60 min addition

 

[Poobah58]

I would drop all but 1 or 2oz of the roasted barley and drop the black malt. Add a little Victory or Biscuit. Also drop the 30 minute hops and but keep the 10 minute one (even bump to 1/2 oz) and DO NOT dry hop! Use Scottish yeast or WLP001.

 

[RodfatherX]

Ok here are the changes. I'm probably still gonna keep the 1056....because I get it free. I don't care if it is perfect in the guidelines either, but I think this will be closer according to everyone. The reason I had planned on dry hoping, was I had a lovely scottish ale that was cask conditioned and dry hopped and it was great. So I might split this into 2 2ndaries and dry hop one and not the other.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/16/2008
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Rodney
Boil Size: 6.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 74.95 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 10.71 %
12.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.03 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.35 %
1.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 0.64 %
0.5 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.32 %
0.75 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 22.9 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.14 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Bitterness: 26.1 IBU Calories: 236 cal/pint
Est Color: 13.3 SRM Color: Color

 

[niquejim]

If you truly liked the Scottish Ale on cask do yourself a favor and use Scottish yeast. You would not do a hefe with 56 why do you think it would work for a 80/

IMHO

 

[Brewsmith]

Drop all late hop additions. Use only a single 60 min addition. It should have no real hop flavor or aroma, just some bitterness to balance. I'd use just the Goldings and not Northern Brewer to about 20 IBU's.

 

[RodfatherX]

If you truly liked the Scottish Ale on cask do yourself a favor and use Scottish yeast. You would not do a hefe with 56 why do you think it would work for a 80/

IMHO

I wouldn't do a hefe at all, (I can't stand the banana bubble gum esters ) but I would do a witbier with 1056 or any another. And the bar I got the cask ale from actually uses 1056 on the scottish ale I had. In fact, thats where I get my free 1056 from. They use the 1056 with all of their ales. I really just did the 80 Schillin as a very general guidelines I just wondering really if this would be a tasty Scottish ale. Maybe I should call it a Bastardized Scottish Ale

I guess I should have just left out the guidelines part from BSmith.

But don't get me wrong either ......I'm taking all the replies into consideration.

And I greatly appreciate them.

 

[budbo]

I would add some Peated/Whiskey Malt to a Scottish ale.

 

[Orfy]

I don't think roasted barley or peated malt belongs in a standard scottish ale.
It's Malty and lightly hopped.

 

[Ølbart]

To quote Jamil Z. on Scottish ale: "While judging continues to improve, every now and then I still hear of judges asking brewers to add peat-smoked malt, which is completely wrong. Don't do it. Do not add peat malt to any of the beers in this category."

He does use 1056, though, and only a 60 minutes addition of EKG hops. There are links to his recipes here, along with links to the podcasts.

 

[Nate]

If you truly liked the Scottish Ale on cask do yourself a favor and use Scottish yeast. You would not do a hefe with 56 why do you think it would work for a 80/

IMHO

+1... absolutely agree. The Scottish Ale yeast contributes pretty heavily towards the characteristics that you're looking for. This includes the slight smokey flavor and, for this reason, I also agree that you do not need any peated malt.

Good luck.

 

[Bob]

Your recipe is a good one, and will make good beer. It is, however, needlessly complicated for what should be one of the most simple grists in existence.

First, please note that, stylistically, Scottish ales must emphasize the malt. They may have caramel notes. At no time should they have hops aroma, and "Hop flavor low to none" , according to BJCP.

You're using Maris Otter, one of the most flavorful of pale malts. Get rid of the everything else save a touch - say 2 oz - of the roasted barley, which is simply to give that lovely ruby shade. Instead of adding crystal or Munich or the overused CaraPils, mash on the high side. If you must have caramel notes, turn the burner on "High" as soon as you begin your runoff. Get your caramel flavors from kettle caramelization, not a complicated grist.

Ferment cool with a yeast that provides a restrained yet fruity ester profile at that lower temperature. Ringwood works well, as does Whitbread, so long as you're willing to deal with the low flocculation. 1056 will work in a pinch because it ferments quite cleanly, so use it if you've already got the smack-pack (and ferment ~60F). Otherwise, invest in a quality Scottish ale yeast or lower-attenuating English strain. In any case, ferment no warmer than 65F.

Use of a lower-attenuating yeast, with the dextrins produced by a higher mash temperature and the flavor precursors provided by the kettle caramelization, will combine to provide the levels of malty goodness you need in a Scottish ale, whether it's 60 Shilling or Scotch Ale.

Now, hops. I note in your second formulation that you're still using flavor hops. That's entirely up to you. I wouldn't, because I've never tasted a Scottish ale with flavor hops except homebrewed versions, and it never tastes "right" to me. I'm not fond of the practice. If you can't stop yourself from using flavor hops, your selection is appropriate - EKG are a good choice. The bittering hops variety is immaterial, so long as it's not one of those high-alpha types that get grapefruit flavor everywhere no matter how long you boil them (shudder); Northern Brewer works, though I prefer a lower-alpha variety like Fuggles.

Scottish ales are wonderful styles too often overlooked in today's climate of Bigger Faster Louder MORE! that exists in beer. I salute you for taking the time to brew one, and wish you the best of luck!

Cheers,

Bob

P.S. Noonan's Scotch Ale is a must-read. Check your LHBS.

 

[Nate]

Nice post Bob. Also agree on the complexity issue. Our Scottish Ales simply consist of a base malt (Golden Promise) and a small amount of both crystal and roasted malts. Both bittering and aroma hops are also very low.

 

[CBBaron]

Your recipe is a good one, and will make good beer. It is, however, needlessly complicated for what should be one of the most simple grists in existence.

Yes and No.
You can make a Scottish Ale with just MO, kettle scorching and Scottish Ale yeast. However at least according to Jamil Z., he has won many times with a more complicated recipe and WLP001 (very similar to US-56). According to his broadcast it is one of his favorite styles.

My take on this is that the traditional recipe was probably very simple and the clean yeast characteristics come from a low fermentation temp but it is easier to get good results using some specialty grains and a clean yeast.

To RodfatherX,
I think your current recipe should get you close to what you want. The rest will be in technique. This style of beer leaves less room for sanitation and fermentation issues than most styles.

Craig

 

[niquejim]

Yes and No.
You can make a Scottish Ale with just MO, kettle scorching and Scottish Ale yeast. However at least according to Jamil Z., he has won many times with a more complicated recipe and WLP001 (very similar to US-56). According to his broadcast it is one of his favorite styles.

My take on this is that the traditional recipe was probably very simple and the clean yeast characteristics come from a low fermentation temp but it is easier to get good results using some specialty grains and a clean yeast.

To RodfatherX,
I think your current recipe should get you close to what you want. The rest will be in technique. This style of beer leaves less room for sanitation and fermentation issues than most styles.

Craig

I posted this several months ago but it fits here. This comes from an experienced judge and homebrewer( who put 9 beers onto the 2nd round of the NHC)

I now understand why some people do well at comps and others don't (IMO), after reading this on another site

QUOTE
" I am a very active judge and I agree that the tendency is to score the more flavorful beers higher, particularly with the less experienced judges. I sometimes have to "reel in" an enthusiastic but misguided judge who is blundering down this path, particularly as we get deeper into a flight or flights. I see the results of this trend in the Best of Show round somewhat frequently, too, with beers that have big flavor but are way out of balance and simply not a harmonious brew.

That said, there is a possibility (probability?) that your beer is not going to be judged by an experienced team, and you may (will) be faced with this situation often. So, you can fret about it, or you can adapt your competition recipes to compensate.

One strategy that addresses your specific issue of "needs more" is to deliberately brew a caricature of the style. Let's say, for example, you were attempting to brew an American Amber, of which a typical commercial example might be reddish in color, have lots of caramel malt, and be moderately hoppy (less so than a Pale Ale). You might design a beer with LOTS of caramel malt (on the order of 15%), mash it cooler (~148F) or step mash it with a longer rest in the beta amylase range to compensate for the reduced fermentability, select a typical and easily-identifiable American hop (like Cascade) that any judge will recognize and then use it judiciously, and ferment it with a very clean yeast (WLP001, WY1056, Fermentis US05) so as not to generate a lot of fruity esters that might interfere with your malt and hop profile.

Another example might be a Bock. "You want Munich malt? "I'll give you Munich malt!" Two-thirds light Munich, one-third dark Munich, then an extra pound of Melanoidin malt. One charge of German hops for bittering only, preferably something like Tradition that is a little higher alpha to reduce the hop bulk and the possible vegetal flavors you get from that. Ferment with the cleanest possible lager yeast you can find, like WLP833 or 838. Now you have a true malt showcase with the appropriate German character with nothing to interfere or to detract.

I don't disagree with Bill's suggestion to brew towards the upper end of the style guidelines, but I would caution you to always keep balance and cleanness first and foremost in your brewing. I am reminded of the advice I received from my primary flight instructor lo, these many years ago: "Basic airwork is key. If you've got decent basic airwork, and you're smooth, you can goon it up to a certain degree and you'll still be OK." What he meant, parenthetically, is that nobody would notice you gooning it up a bit as long as you were smooth about it and trending towards a correction for the deviation. Same thing with brewing: As long as you are keeping harmony and balance in mind, while still featuring those characteristics that need to be featured in a particular style, you'll do well.

Bottom line? Clean, clean, clean. Avoid muddling up your recipe by throwing the kitchen sink in there. Select those features of the style that need to be featured, choose a few ingredients (traditional or not) that will do it, and brew away. Good luck and God bless."
End quote



This guy sent 9 beers on to the next round brewing on his stovetop in the kitchen. It's all in appealling to what the judges are looking for, and I like to brew for my own tastes.

So I guess no one will ever know my name like they know Jamil(22 beers to rd 2), but I like what I make, and I call my beers what they are. The recipe in the original post looks good, just not Scottish IMHO.

 

[RodfatherX]

Thx again for all the replies.....I'm at work right now, so no Bsmith, but I was thinking. What if I use half an ounce of northern brewer hops for 60 min and half an ounce EKG for say 40 or 45 min? I haven't seen a hop schedule like that before, but I was hoping that it would still give me some just a tad of the flavoring hops....That if you can't tell (I'm kinda hoping to keep) I still plan on splitting it into 2 2ndaries though and dry hopping one. I mash in a cooler, so I cannot do the kettle carmalization. And since I'm wanting to keep some of the flavor hops and have my IBUs on the higher side, do I not want to keep the Munich especially and probably some of the crystal?

 

[Bob]

What if I use half an ounce of northern brewer hops for 60 min and half an ounce EKG for say 40 or 45 min? I haven't seen a hop schedule like that before, but I was hoping that it would still give me some just a tad of the flavoring hops....

I think that would work quite well. The hops flavour would be there, but very restrained; more hinted at than actually tasted.

I mash in a cooler, so I cannot do the kettle carmalization.

Well, since kettle caramelization happens in the kettle, your mash tun isn't a concern. What I meant - forgive me if I wasn't clear - was to fire up the kettle the instant you start your runoff. That small amount of wort will caramelize while it's in contact with the hot metal.

And since I'm wanting to keep some of the flavor hops and have my IBUs on the higher side, do I not want to keep the Munich especially and probably some of the crystal?

Some of the crystal, sure, for balance's sake. I don't think the characteristics of Munich are appropriate for the style - you risk confusing it with Bock.

But hey, that's just one brewer's opinion.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[niquejim]

Thx again for all the replies.....I'm at work right now, so no Bsmith, but I was thinking. What if I use half an ounce of northern brewer hops for 60 min and half an ounce EKG for say 40 or 45 min? I haven't seen a hop schedule like that before, but I was hoping that it would still give me some just a tad of the flavoring hops....That if you can't tell (I'm kinda hoping to keep) I still plan on splitting it into 2 2ndaries though and dry hopping one. I mash in a cooler, so I cannot do the kettle carmalization. And since I'm wanting to keep some of the flavor hops and have my IBUs on the higher side, do I not want to keep the Munich especially and probably some of the crystal?

Remember it's your beer, so do it as you wish. Just call it a Scottish inspired beer.
As for the carmelization, just runoff the first gallon and boil it down to a qt or so then add the rest. Look at my Traq Air Owl recipe.

 

[RodfatherX]

Remember it's your beer, so do it as you wish. Just call it a Scottish inspired beer.
As for the carmelization, just runoff the first gallon and boil it down to a qt or so then add the rest. Look at my Traq Air Owl recipe.

hmm....on your Air Owl, I see you boil 8 gallons. So you run off 9 gallons total? Boil one down to a pint, then run off the other 8? Would it work ok if I just ran of 7? Boiled the 1st down to a pt or qt, then boiled 6 and some change? My kettle is only a 7.5g.

 

[RodfatherX]

Oh yeah and I forgot to ask bob another question also. Bob if I mash high at say 158F would I still do it for 60min. When I was playing around with BS last night, when I selected the full body mash it defaulted to 45 min at 158F

 

[Brewsmith]

I'd still mash for a full hour. You could probably get away with a shorter time, but what's 15 minutes.

As far as the grain bill goes, you are fine. If you read the Scottish Ale book and listen to the JZ podcast on the style, both sides of many of the discussed arguments are true. Traditional Scottish ales were made from base malt, and a little roasted barley and carmelized in the kettle. More modern versions have crystal and other specialty malts. The only thing I'd take out is the carapils. You will be fine with the high mash temp and a cool ferementation to leave enough body and sweetness.

With a bittering addition of low alpha hops, you will get some flavor that comes through, or at least more flavor than if you used a smaller addition of higher alpha hops. I'd still stick with a single 60 min addition.

- edit

Here's a link to my 80/- Scottish Ale. Pretty simple recipe and very nice. I got a 35 in this years NHC with this.
80/- Scottish Ale

 

[Nate]

I'm sitting here recovering from what appears to be the flu (in June?) and this thread is forcing me to draw a pint...

 

[niquejim]

hmm....on your Air Owl, I see you boil 8 gallons. So you run off 9 gallons total? Boil one down to a pint, then run off the other 8? Would it work ok if I just ran of 7? Boiled the 1st down to a pt or qt, then boiled 6 and some change? My kettle is only a 7.5g.

8 gallons total; 1st gallon boiled down and 7 other gallons

I'm sitting here recovering from what appears to be the flu (in June?) and this thread is forcing me to draw a pint...

Glad we could help

 

[RodfatherX]

ok here it is

I couldn't decide between 40 or 45 min for the EKG so I just did 43 min. I cut the crystal down to 12 oz and replaced the crystal 60L with 40L. Munich went bye bye as did the carapils.


The Rodfather's Bastardized Scottish ale


Type: All Grain
Date: 6/16/2008
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Rodney
Boil Size: 7.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.19 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 8.46 %
1.4 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1.01 %
0.5 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.34 %
0.50 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 16.4 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (43 min) Hops 8.7 IBU
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.93 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.95 %
Bitterness: 25.1 IBU Calories: 222 cal/pint
Est Color: 11.3 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 8.87 lb
Sparge Water: 5.54 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 11.09 qt of water at 174.4 F 158.0 F




Notes

Put 1 gallon of 1st runnings into kettle and boil hot down to 1 qt. Then run the other 6 gallons in.



Thank you very much everyone for your posts and suggestions.

 

[mysterio]

Many Scottish ales these days have a surprising amount of hop flavour and aroma. Theres a pretty standard one ubiquitous in Edinburgh, Caledonian 80/- that has a fair bit of Goldings flavour. I wouldn't worry about throwing in an ounce in the last 10 minutes if that's what you like.

I agree with other posts, keep it simple, just use some crystal and roast barley. The Edinburgh ale yeast from White Labs is very tasty and you can use it in your other ales.

I also prefer a lower gravity, say 1.040. Makes a good session beer.