Critique my Black IPA

[HOPtuary]

Looking for some comments or thoughts on this new recipe i put together.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: The Emperor Ver. 3
Brewer: 5-Hole Brewing
Asst Brewer:
Style: Black IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.80 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.80 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.057 SG
Estimated Color: 31.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 86.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs 6.3 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 80.1 %
1 lbs 1.4 oz Munich Dark (BestMälz) (12.7 SRM) Grain 2 7.6 %
1 lbs 1.1 oz Carafa III (Weyermann) (525.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.5 %
10.7 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.7 %
0.54 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 16.5 IBUs
0.54 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 8.9 IBUs
0.54 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 7 10.6 IBUs
0.54 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 m Hop 8 8.4 IBUs
0.81 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 5.4 IBUs
0.81 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 10 6.4 IBUs
0.81 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 11 5.0 IBUs
0.81 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20. Hop 12 8.1 IBUs
0.81 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 13 9.7 IBUs
0.81 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 14 7.7 IBUs
1.1 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 15 -
1.08 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
1.08 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.08 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Hop 18 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge (60 min)
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 3.5 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 4.69 gal of water at 164.1 F 148.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 2.84 gal of water and heat to 168.0 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 3.22gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

In before someone says skip the crystal malt.

I think the recipe looks great and the munich malt will probably be a great addition. When I re-brew my black IPA again I was going to add 1-1.5lbs of munich malt since the judges knocked me for the low to no malt character.

I would only say more hops... But that's what I will always say to an IPA recipe simply because more late additions will never hurt it.

 

[HOPtuary]

I was wondering about ditching the C60. I could add some more munich or some Melanoidin in its place. Also didnt mention I was planning on adding the Carafa III with about 10 minutes to go in the 60 minute mash so I get a little roast and mostly flavor. As for the hops, Id like to keep things under 100 IBUs. But i can def add more at 5, FO and DH.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I was wondering about ditching the C60. I could add some more munich or some Melanoidin in its place. Also didnt mention I was planning on adding the Carafa III with about 10 minutes to go in the 60 minute mash so I get a little roast and mostly flavor. As for the hops, Id like to keep things under 100 IBUs. But i can def add more at 5, FO and DH.

For clarity, your hops are probably perfectly fine in terms of amounts. I was mostly joking about adding more hops since I hate to be the guy that uses the "go spend more money and your beer will be better" advice.

I don't think that 10oz or so of C60 would really completely kill the beer as long as it fermented down nice and dry, then it won't come off as sweet but will have that malty backbone. On the other hand more munich is always good too, so its probably a horse a piece in this case.

 

[HOPtuary]

Sounds good. Supposed to be almost 60* friday in Chicago so im going to take advantage of it.

For clarity, your hops are probably perfectly fine in terms of amounts. I was mostly joking about adding more hops since I hate to be the guy that uses the "go spend more money and your beer will be better" advice.

I don't think that 10oz or so of C60 would really completely kill the beer as long as it fermented down nice and dry, then it won't come off as sweet but will have that malty backbone. On the other hand more munich is always good too, so its probably a horse a piece in this case.

 

[HOPtuary]

Thinking of pulling the C60 out and replacing it with CaraMunich.

 

[joshesmusica]

I always say for ipas and any variants thereof: keep it simple!
For an ipa you might have something like 85% pale malt, 5% Munich, 5% wheat malt, and 5% simple sugar. So in this case do the same thing except add about 4-5% carafa 3. Do exactly as you planned with adding it in the last 10 mins. I wouldn't personally do any crystal malts of any kind, and change that dark Munich to regular Munich. You still want this to taste like an ipa with a little bit of roast in the background and a nice dark color that will also make the brain think thicker and richer. You don't want this to become a hoppy porter or stout.

As far as the hops, why the weird measurements for each addition? Did this get scaled from a different recipe? Again, keep it simple. It will make the brew day a lot less stressful. I would personally keep all your 15 min additions to .5 oz, then change all the other additions after that to an even 1 oz. Then for I would be aiming for about 75 ibus total.

 

[HOPtuary]

Revised recipe...

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 9.55 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.80 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.059 SG
Estimated Color: 34.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 89.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.1 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
1 lbs 12.0 oz Munich Dark (BestMälz) (12.7 SRM) Grain 2 11.7 %
12.0 oz Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
12.0 oz Midnight Wheat (550.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.0 %
8.0 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SR Grain 5 3.3 %
0.50 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 15.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 8.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 8 10.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 m Hop 9 7.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 6.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 11 8.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 12 6.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15. Hop 13 8.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 14 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 15 7.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 16 -
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Hop 18 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Hop 19 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 5.69 gal of water at 167.4 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 6.66gal) of 168.0 F water

 

[radwizard]

I like your updated recipe. Wheat makes a lot of sense to me in a BIPA. I would brew that and see how stouty it comes out. I've had a difficult time with BIPA's coming out to Stout-like. I do a Hoppy Stout that is one of my favs, but I have always wanted to get the BIPA to come out more like an IPA. I'm moving towards using more cane sugar, which I was recommended to try through brewers on this site.

 

[HOPtuary]

I completely forgot about Midnight Wheat until I went to get my grains last night so I revamped everything. Im still leaning towards adding the Carafara in the last 10 minutes of the mash or just cold steeping it and adding it to the boil.

I like your updated recipe. Wheat makes a lot of sense to me in a BIPA. I would brew that and see how stouty it comes out. I've had a difficult time with BIPA's coming out to Stout-like. I do a Hoppy Stout that is one of my favs, but I have always wanted to get the BIPA to come out more like an IPA. I'm moving towards using more cane sugar, which I was recommended to try through brewers on this site.

 

[Gavin C]

Way too much black stuff. Not needed or wanted in a black IPA.

20oz including the midnight wheat and the Carafa in you recipe.

As an example here is a 5.5 gallon batch of Dunkel with 5oz of Carafa III special dehusked. It came out too dark.

 

[HOPtuary]

Im targeting a stout colored dark as night color low to mid 30s for SRM

 

[m00ps]

Im pretty surprised Gavin was able to get that brown color form 5oz of CIII. Nice work dude

I've started mashing most of my de-bittered black malts just for mashout to get the color, without the roasty flavors. Usually 4-8oz in the actual mash, and another 8-12oz at mashout and its jet black, even held up to the sun. I dont account for the mashout grains in my OG calculation. They probably to add a bit though but I dont care enough

 

[HOPtuary]

Id like to get a little roast in this beer. Do you get some roast with your experience using your method.

Im pretty surprised Gavin was able to get that brown color form 5oz of CIII. Nice work dude

I've started mashing most of my de-bittered black malts just for mashout to get the color, without the roasty flavors. Usually 4-8oz in the actual mash, and another 8-12oz at mashout and its jet black, even held up to the sun. I dont account for the mashout grains in my OG calculation. They probably to add a bit though but I dont care enough

 

[Gavin C]

Im pretty surprised Gavin was able to get that brown color form 5oz of CIII. Nice work dude

I've started mashing most of my de-bittered black malts just for mashout to get the color, without the roasty flavors. Usually 4-8oz in the actual mash, and another 8-12oz at mashout and its jet black, even held up to the sun. I dont account for the mashout grains in my OG calculation. They probably to add a bit though but I dont care enough

Just for context here is the grain-bill

Predicted SRM was ~20 but I think it's darker than that. Granted the Munich 9 and 15 will have contributed considerably to the color but I find Carafa III to be very potent when it comes to color.

Anyway, no worries OP. Sounds like you have a plan. I'd be concerned re the mash pH without mashing thinner +/- some needed alkali in the mash.

 

[joshesmusica]

My opinion is that, even with the updated grain bill, this is still closer to a hoppy stout than a black ipa.

 

[m00ps]

Id like to get a little roast in this beer. Do you get some roast with your experience using your method.

I got very little from doing it this way. Im considering trying to only use mashout blackening malts, but I fear that is may not taste like a Black IPA. I dont like much roast in mine, but I feel a bit is essential for the style. I've found most commercial black IPAs to be awful to my tastes and I sometimes cant finish them.

But the last Black IPA I did was a bit too much. Not on the roast, but the late chinook additions. Tasted like I added a glass of clorox for the first 2 weeks it was kegged, but it calmed down. Other HBTers I sent it to loved it, but I would definitely recommend keeping the chinook in check. The amounts you've got now are totally fine

edit: to differentiate it as much as possible from a hoppy stout, I always try to use a decent amount of sugar in black IPAs to get a thin body. Especially given the amount of specialty malts you need to use to get it black

 

[HOPtuary]

Ok thanks for the input. I think im going to stick with the late mash/mashout addition for the Carafara III.

I got very little from doing it this way. Im considering trying to only use mashout blackening malts, but I fear that is may not taste like a Black IPA. I dont like much roast in mine, but I feel a bit is essential for the style. I've found most commercial black IPAs to be awful to my tastes and I sometimes cant finish them.

But the last Black IPA I did was a bit too much. Not on the roast, but the late chinook additions. Tasted like I added a glass of clorox for the first 2 weeks it was kegged, but it calmed down. Other HBTers I sent it to loved it, but I would definitely recommend keeping the chinook in check. The amounts you've got now are totally fine

edit: to differentiate it as much as possible from a hoppy stout, I always try to use a decent amount of sugar in black IPAs to get a thin body. Especially given the amount of specialty malts you need to use to get it black

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

From personal experience midnight wheat is an *extremely* mellow roasted malt. I was knocked a point on my black IPA because they wanted a bit more roast chocolate/coffee, and that's with 16oz of midnight wheat malt in the mash for the full 60 minutes with a pretty fine grind (BIAB so I am getting slightly chunky flour). I don't think you'll have problems with it being overly roasty. Simple sugars to drive attenuation will prevent the stout from rearing its head in your BIPA, I think though that eventually all BIPAs when the hops age out turn into stouts regardless of what we do.

The only other two things that held my BIPA from scoring higher was low malt character, which additions like Munich or caramunich would counter. The other was hop complexity, they thought it was a tiny bit one dimensional which I could see when it was basically all Citra and Cascade. So the two major things that held back my BIPA at competition you are addressing in your recipe, as long as you get good attenuation and serve it fresh it'll be a pretty boss BIPA.

 

[HOPtuary]

Great! Thanks for the tips and sharing your experiences. I think this is locked in at this point for friday. Im going to either spin up 001 or 007 tonight for this.

From personal experience midnight wheat is an *extremely* mellow roasted malt. I was knocked a point on my black IPA because they wanted a bit more roast chocolate/coffee, and that's with 16oz of midnight wheat malt in the mash for the full 60 minutes with a pretty fine grind (BIAB so I am getting slightly chunky flour). I don't think you'll have problems with it being overly roasty. Simple sugars to drive attenuation will prevent the stout from rearing its head in your BIPA, I think though that eventually all BIPAs when the hops age out turn into stouts regardless of what we do.

The only other two things that held my BIPA from scoring higher was low malt character, which additions like Munich or caramunich would counter. The other was hop complexity, they thought it was a tiny bit one dimensional which I could see when it was basically all Citra and Cascade. So the two major things that held back my BIPA at competition you're addressing in your recipe, as long as you get good attenuation and serve it fresh it'll be a pretty boss BIPA.

 

[HOPtuary]

Any thoughts on water profiles out of Bru'n Water for this? Im on chicago water which is pretty good water.