Critique/ feedback requested on experimental recipe before I brew

[TkmLinus]

I am attempting to make a clone of "Orange U an IPA" brewed by Urban Tree Cidery. From their description it is "Fermented with sweet orange peel, coriander and citrus hops" and I believe some apple juice is added post fermentation for extra sweetness. I was wondering if any of the ingredients seem way out of proportion(Particularly the orange peel, hops, and coriander). Thanks in advance for any feedback. Recipe I put together below:

1.25 gallon batch

(For first 2 weeks)
1 gallon Apple Juice
55 grams sugar
Juice A38 Yeast
pinch of yeast nutrient

(1 week before kegging)
6 grams Citra
11 grams sweet orange peel that has been soaked in 1 oz vodka for 2 days
5 grams crushed fresh coriander

(keg day)
additional 1/4 gallon apple juice(chill immediately to prevent additional fermentation and force carb)

 

[bernardsmith]

Interesting recipe. Gotta ask what the value is of adding 55 g of sugar to the apple juice.
No idea what "Juice A38 Yeast" might be.
You might want to consider adding
1. Pectic enzyme to help ensure a clearer cider.
2. Wine tannin. If you are using commercially made "apple juice" it's likely to be tannin poor. If you can get tannin, great. If you cannot, you might simply add a tea bag (black tea)
3. Malic acid. Again, commercially made apple juice for the soft drink market is not likely to include very acidic (cider) apples. Malic is the main acid found in apples.
If you use apple juice to back sweeten (and it would seem that you don't intend to stabilize the cider first so if you don't drink the entire gallon plus the yeast are likely to treat that added juice as for them to ferment) then you are going to be decreasing the final ABV by that volume of "water". Why would you want to do that? Why not either freeze this extra juice and allow it to gently thaw while collecting the liquid as it thaws. You will reduce the amount of H2O you add while still collecting 100% of the flavor and the sugar. OR you might simply add table sugar to back sweeten to the precise level you want (bench test).
4. Hops You will want to taste constantly after about 7 days to see if the flavor is still hoppy or has become grassy.
5 Are you adding the orange peel or the tincture made from the vodka? Cannot see the benefit of adding the peel if you've made a tincture but I might allow the tincture to extract the essential oils from the ZEST (not the peel - you do not want any pith) for a few weeks and not just 2 days. Do you make limoncello? Two days is hardly enough time for the zest to get wet.

 

[TkmLinus]

Interesting recipe. Gotta ask what the value is of adding 55 g of sugar to the apple juice.
No idea what "Juice A38 Yeast" might be.
You might want to consider adding
1. Pectic enzyme to help ensure a clearer cider.
2. Wine tannin. If you are using commercially made "apple juice" it's likely to be tannin poor. If you can get tannin, great. If you cannot, you might simply add a tea bag (black tea)
3. Malic acid. Again, commercially made apple juice for the soft drink market is not likely to include very acidic (cider) apples. Malic is the main acid found in apples.
If you use apple juice to back sweeten (and it would seem that you don't intend to stabilize the cider first so if you don't drink the entire gallon plus the yeast are likely to treat that added juice as for them to ferment) then you are going to be decreasing the final ABV by that volume of "water". Why would you want to do that? Why not either freeze this extra juice and allow it to gently thaw while collecting the liquid as it thaws. You will reduce the amount of H2O you add while still collecting 100% of the flavor and the sugar. OR you might simply add table sugar to back sweeten to the precise level you want (bench test).
4. 6 g of hops? Sounds like overkill. If you are using hop pellets then you will want to taste constantly after about 7 days to see if the flavor is still hoppy or has become grassy.
5 Are you adding the orange peel or the tincture made from the vodka? Cannot see the benefit of adding the peel if you've made a tincture but I might allow the tincture to extract the essential oils from the ZEST (not the peel - you do not want any pith) for a few weeks and not just 2 days. Do you make limoncello? Two days is hardly enough time for the zest to get wet.

A38 Juice yeast is just an Ale yeast made by Imperial Labs commonly used for hazy IPA's. The 55grams of sugar is to increase the ABV and compensate for the dilution that results from adding the extra apple juice at the end(at least that's how I thought to use it). Never thought to freeze the juice and collect the dripping as it thaws. Sounds interesting.

The original is quite hazy so I will skip the pectic enzyme(picture of the original below).

I have added 6 grams of Cascade hops in a gallon of cider and dry hopped for a week, which I liked the flavor. The Cascade was at about 6% Alpha, while the Citra I have is at 12.8%. For what it's worth Urban Tree states that it has 95 IBU's but I can't figure out how that may have been calculated, so possibly start with less or does the 6 grams seem fine If I taste as it goes along?

As for the sweet orange peel, I am going to use the same sweet orange peel commonly used for Belgian wit beers. The plan was to soak and add vodka and peel to the fermenter.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[bernardsmith]

Aha.. No expert on brewing but I think you obtain the acidity from hops when you boil them for about 60 minutes. When you dry hop you are obtaining "nothing more" than their aromatics. When you boil hops for 10 minutes or so you extract flavor. So each stage of boiling extracts first, aroma, then flavor, and then finally acidity. And it really doesn't matter if the nominal IBUs of the hops are up the wazoo, if you add hops to liquid at room temperature or thereabouts you extract aroma and zero IBUs. (of course, if you are making 5000 gallons of cider and you dilute that with a few gallons of boiled water with a few kilos of hop pellets then the dilution is unnoticeable and the IBUs can be right in your face but that may not be anything you can do effectively when your total volume is about 1 imperial gallon.
What you may want, then, if you are looking for IBUs is for pre-made hop teas or tinctures. Not sure what they are called but I know my LHBS sells test tubes of these. I don't brew much beer and so have not had any interest in these things.

 

[madscientist451]

Never heard of it, can't go to the cidery, but it looks interesting, so I'm going to try it.

Here's on online review I found:
Orange U an IPA?: Hazy light orange hue. Low carbonation. Smells of citrus & hops. Semi-dry to semi-sweet. Light to medium bodied. Low tartness & acidity. Hints of bitterness. No sourness, funk, or tannins. Notes of orange and hops with hints of herbs and lemon. Low apple flavor. Moderate flavor intensity and complexity. Low to moderate hops. High sessionability.
source:
https://cidersays.com/2021/02/08/ur...heat-haze-orange-u-an-ipa-and-wild-on-cherry/
My version:
I've got 3 gallons of cider already fermented that came out somewhat "blah" so I'll use some of it in my version:
1.5 gallon batch
Start with 1 gallon of cheap big box store apple juice or reconstituted juice from frozen concentrate.
Boil 60 minutes, adding 1 oz Meridian hops at start of boil (its what I have) IBU should be about 95.
Add 8.5 grams crushed coriander last 5 minutes.
Take some of the liquid and make a strong tea with orange herb tea or something similar for the orange flavor
At flameout add another 1 oz of Meridian
Let it cool and add the boiled juice w/hops to 1 gallon of previously fermented cider.
Target volume is 1.5 gallons
Taste it and see if it needs dry hop or any more adjustments.
I'll probably do some simple blending trials before I dump all the hopped juice in to see if I'm on the right track with this
Keg/Carbonate and drink before the sugar in the apple juice starts fermenting.
Hopefully I'll get this done in a few days and report back.

 

[TkmLinus]

Never heard of it, can't go to the cidery, but it looks interesting, so I'm going to try it.

Here's on online review I found:
Orange U an IPA?: Hazy light orange hue. Low carbonation. Smells of citrus & hops. Semi-dry to semi-sweet. Light to medium bodied. Low tartness & acidity. Hints of bitterness. No sourness, funk, or tannins. Notes of orange and hops with hints of herbs and lemon. Low apple flavor. Moderate flavor intensity and complexity. Low to moderate hops. High sessionability.
source:
https://cidersays.com/2021/02/08/ur...heat-haze-orange-u-an-ipa-and-wild-on-cherry/
My version:
I've got 3 gallons of cider already fermented that came out somewhat "blah" so I'll use some of it in my version:
1.5 gallon batch
Start with 1 gallon of cheap big box store apple juice or reconstituted juice from frozen concentrate.
Boil 60 minutes, adding 1 oz Meridian hops at start of boil (its what I have) IBU should be about 95.
Add 8.5 grams crushed coriander last 5 minutes.
Take some of the liquid and make a strong tea with orange herb tea or something similar for the orange flavor
At flameout add another 1 oz of Meridian
Let it cool and add the boiled juice w/hops to 1 gallon of previously fermented cider.
Target volume is 1.5 gallons
Taste it and see if it needs dry hop or any more adjustments.
I'll probably do some simple blending trials before I dump all the hopped juice in to see if I'm on the right track with this
Keg/Carbonate and drink before the sugar in the apple juice starts fermenting.
Hopefully I'll get this done in a few days and report back.

This will be fun to compare versions. I'm interested to hear how the boiled juice turns out. My yeast was pitched 2 days ago, so I still have a few weeks to go.

 

[madscientist451]

So after a few drinks and more pondering, I've decided against boiling apple juice with the hops and instead will make a "hop tea" with just water and hops; after adding the hop tea, I'll add frozen apple juice concentrate to taste and I'll be able to dial in the back sweetening.

 

[TkmLinus]

So after a few drinks and more pondering, I've decided against boiling apple juice with the hops and instead will make a "hop tea" with just water and hops; after adding the hop tea, I'll add frozen apple juice concentrate to taste and I'll be able to dial in the back sweetening.

MadScientist, Have you had a chance to sample your version yet? Mine came out quite tasty but it is missing some body. It is nowhere near as hazy as the original, it just has a light haze. The orange and citrus flavors came through quite good, the sweetness is just about right as well. So while the flavor is almost there the haze and body are missing. Regardless, my GF is in love with it and requested a 5 gallon batch, so I consider it a success.

 

[Sessionz]

I’ve made a hopped white peach cider that turned out excellent. I actually just heated 1/4 gallon of fresh apple juice to 150f and steeped 1/2oz amarillo hops in that for 30 min. Still pulls some alpha acids and added a fantastic aroma and hop flavor. I don’t go over 150f to prevent a pectin haze in the juice. I let that cool, then added it to 5 gallons of fermented cider in a carboy. I let that added sugar from the juice ferment out for about 3 weeks then kegged it.

 

[TkmLinus]

I’ve made a hopped white peach cider that turned out excellent. I actually just heated 1/4 gallon of fresh apple juice to 150f and steeped 1/2oz amarillo hops in that for 30 min. Still pulls some alpha acids and added a fantastic aroma and hop flavor. I don’t go over 150f to prevent a pectin haze in the juice. I let that cool, then added it to 5 gallons of fermented cider in a carboy. I let that added sugar from the juice ferment out for about 3 weeks then kegged it.

I will try warming the applejuice next time. I just started a new batch and added the hops 24 hours after pitching like a NEIPA.

 

[Sessionz]

I will try warming the applejuice next time. I just started a new batch and added the hops 24 hours after pitching like a NEIPA.

That sounds interesting too! I brew a lot of NEIPA’s, but have never tried bio transformation in a cider ferment. Only thing I’d be worried about was vegative flavors from keeping it on the hops for too long, I usually only dry hop my ciders for a week max, but what you’re doing could be very tasty! Please keep me posted on the results!

 

[TkmLinus]

That sounds interesting too! I brew a lot of NEIPA’s, but have never tried bio transformation in a cider ferment. Only thing I’d be worried about was vegative flavors from keeping it on the hops for too long, I usually only dry hop my ciders for a week max, but what you’re doing could be very tasty! Please keep me posted on the results!

This batch turned out quite tasty, it tastes like tart green apple with orange though it lacks juicy hop flavors. The GF loves it. Not as much hop flavor as my first batch. I used some turbinado sugar and it fixed the body issue. This next batch I am going to do 2 dry hops(one at 24 hours, second at 5 days before kegging) and see what happens.