Crazy efficiency stovetop partial mash!?

[Jakemo]

Hello everybody!

Just got done brewing a saison. Used the following:
4# Pilsen DME
3# Vienna
8oz White Wheat Malt
2oz Caramunich I
Calc OG: 1.054 from 2 different recipe calculators

For my partial mash, I have to use my oven and fudge the temperatures a little bit.

I started with 1.5 qts/lb @133 for 30 minutes. Over the course of 30 min it rose to 140. Then I added another 1.5 quarts of boiling water to get it up to about 150 for 60 min. It stayed close to 150 for the first 25 min, then I changed the oven temp and it slowly rose to about 158 by the end of 60 min.

Anyway, boiled, cooled, topped off, aerated, then I took a gravity sample at 76 degrees. I measured 1.060 with my hydrometer. With temperature correction that would be 1.063 OG. That means I got >90% efficiency. Is this right??? What could this mean for the finished beer?

I want it to finish dry, and I'm hoping this will help it get there.

 

[Yooper]

I don't have a calculator in front of me, so I can't double check your figures. But keep in mind that you will always get 100% from the extract. You figure the efficiency BEFORE you add water and before you add extract. You want your mash efficiency, not the extract efficency.

 

[Jakemo]

Gotcha. Well even if I can't check my actual efficiency now, what's with the 10 point OG discrepancy? And I promise the numbers have been checked several times.

 

[Jakemo]

does the higher-than-calculated og indicate a thinner/more fermentable wort? I appreciate the clarification on efficiency, but I am more curious about what the results will be.

 

[Jakemo]

Hello? Anybody? Anything?

 

[Fletch78]

It's possible your final volume is slightly lower than your intended volume, that would throw off your efficiency calculation considerably.

 

[Fletch78]

Whether it finishes dry/crisp or not is really a separate issue involving many factors. Efficiency has nothing to do with it.

 

[BigJerk]

I did this same thing on my first partial mash, and my program gave me an efficiency of 100.9%! I realized later that I measured the post mash-preboil gravity AFTER I added the extract! D'oh! I had to manually back out the extract and I had around a 65% efficiency, about what I expected for a first timer. My last batch had an efficiency of ~80% which was way more than the 70% i planned for, so this one will be a bit stronger than expected.

 

[Jakemo]

Huh... I filled my carboy up to 5 gallons like usual, not any more or less than the last few times. Could be though.

I guess I'll check out the efficiency calculations. I just am not really sure why my OG is so much higher than calculated.

I'll just let it ferment out, I just didn't plan on having a 7% saison, a bit more than I bargained for.

 

[Jakemo]

Seriously, the question I'm asking is not how to calculate efficiency, I'm trying to figure out where the 9 point disparity in my OG came from.

I can tell you more detail about my (partial) mashing procedure, etc, if need be.

Can anybody help!?

 

[Yooper]

Seriously, the question I'm asking is not how to calculate efficiency, I'm trying to figure out where the 9 point disparity in my OG came from.

I can tell you more detail about my (partial) mashing procedure, etc, if need be.

Can anybody help!?

There has to be an error. Either you used more malt extract or grains, or less water. But to really figure mash efficiency next time, take the OG before adding extract and topping up. The extract will always be 100% efficiency. That skews the reading of a PM efficiency.

 

[Jakemo]

Thanks Yooper. For some reason (maybe bc it's Monday) my brain is dumb and I can't remember the math to figure out the math to calculate top-off water as a function of gravity.

As in, if I wanted to figure out how much water to add to drop the OG to it's originally calculated value... can ya help me out?

Thanks all, I appreciate the help

 

[Jakemo]

Figured it out... G1*V1=G2*V2
Wow...that says that I poured 2/3 cup less topoff water than I needed. Crazy, didn't realize it had that much of an effect.

So, can I just (gently) pour in 2/3 cup boiled, sanitized water and be fine?

 

[Jakemo]

Is that right? Anybody able to double-check my math?

 

[Boleslaus]

I don't think 2/3 of a cup can drop your gravity 10 points

 

[Jakemo]

I had a hunch, but I can't seem to find the math anywhere to give me a better answer.

Anybody have the equation I can use to compare volumes and gravities?

 

[Jakemo]

I tried another:
(Gravity points)x(Volume)=Total points.

54*5=270 points.

63*(vol)=270pts -> 4.29 gallons.

That sounds more realistic, but I filled up to the 5 gallon line on my carboy.

Yooper- any thoughts? Quintuple-check the numbers I've already checked 4 times?

 

[Boleslaus]

Did you buy your grains at your LHBS. Its possible they just measured out too much.

 

[Jakemo]

As simple of an answer as that is, it is indeed possible. It was my first visit to a different brew store and they measured the grains for me. I don't have a recipe calc in front of me, how much vienna and/or white wheat would it take to raise OG 9 points?

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

i saw another thread about different water measuring devices being way off from each other, perhaps your 5 gallon line is actually less than 5 gallons.

 

[Jakemo]

It would have to be almost 3/4 of a gallon off. And being that it fills up a 5 gallon carboy to the 5 gallon line, I don't think that's the case.

 

[lordbeermestrength]

Well, most of your gravity pts are coming from the extract. Even with 100% efficiency from your grain, you could only be at 1.0604 with a 5 gal final volume. (according to my rough calculations). A measurement is off. Don't know what, but something is wrong. It makes the most sense to me that you got more extract than you thought. Just a guess.

 

[redcoat_or_rebel]

It would have to be almost 3/4 of a gallon off. And being that it fills up a 5 gallon carboy to the 5 gallon line, I don't think that's the case.

that exactly what he was off, check it out

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/i-cant-measure-5-gallons-crazy-248688/

 

[luke2080]

I'll give you my thoughts...I can't guarantee this is right, but here it is anyway.

What was the system efficiency for the recipe you were working with? (Don't have my software here to figure it out) I know all of the recipes, whether Partial or All Grain, in the recipe magazine I use is written assuming a system efficiency of 68%. This was about what I was at when I started with AG, but then using a PH stabalizer alone kicked up my efficiency 10% and I was startled with my high OG for a Cream Ale.

So regardless of what you did, if you plan to brew the same way, once you brew a few times you should figure out what your efficiency, know the efficiency for the recipe, and recalculate what you want to do.

I would think you'd have a good efficiency since you did a protein rest and multi-step mash. Since you had such a high efficiency, I am also assuming the PH in your mash pot was right where one would want it.

Now, you will have an even higher ABV% if you used a highly attenuating yeast. With a low attenuating yeast, and your rest temperature step up to 158F (depending how long it was over 153F in the last 30 minutes) you'll get the extra body, without going too overboard on ABV - but you may not get the dry finish you were looking for.

My last 2 beers both dropped to about 1.005 FG, adding a full 1% ABV to both. But I need a new mash tun - we were having trouble keeping our mash temp over 150 (so all fermentable sugars) - however, this is what you want with the Saison.

So in short, I'm assuming you are using a yeast meant for a Saison, and it will finish fairly dry. But next time, for this beer, kick down the ingredients based on what the efficiency the recipe was written for compared to your system efficency - and next time pay attention to measure your mash efficiency (which based on your process looks good) Also for the Saison, I wouldn't do a mash temp over 150. That'll keep your to all fermentable sugars, high attenuation, and a crisp finish.

 

[brewhokie]

Anyway, boiled, cooled, topped off, aerated, then I took a gravity sample at 76 degrees. I measured 1.060 with my hydrometer. With temperature correction that would be 1.063 OG. That means I got >90% efficiency.

Did you mix well after you topped off with additional water. My first brew I made this mistake, my OG reading was 10 points low with extract which had me scratching my head.

 

[Jakemo]

What was the system efficiency for the recipe you were working with? (Don't have my software here to figure it out)

I calculated using both beercalculus.hopville.org and BeerSmith, for 75% efficiency. The one question I have about both of those is whether they inadvertently let efficiency adjustments affect extract (off topic)

So regardless of what you did, if you plan to brew the same way, once you brew a few times you should figure out what your efficiency, know the efficiency for the recipe, and recalculate what you want to do.

I would think you'd have a good efficiency since you did a protein rest and multi-step mash. Since you had such a high efficiency, I am also assuming the PH in your mash pot was right where one would want it.

Agreed on all points. When I get around to brewing a saison again, I'll adjust the recipe for what I experienced this time.
Talking to another couple homebrew buddies more experienced than I, I learned that it was definitely the multi-step mash w/protein rest that led to such a higher OG. And yeah, experimentally, one would guess that my pH was right where is shoulda been, which is great news since I used Brita'd tap water.

Now, you will have an even higher ABV% if you used a highly attenuating yeast. With a low attenuating yeast, and your rest temperature step up to 158F (depending how long it was over 153F in the last 30 minutes) you'll get the extra body, without going too overboard on ABV - but you may not get the dry finish you were looking for.

My last 2 beers both dropped to about 1.005 FG, adding a full 1% ABV to both. But I need a new mash tun - we were having trouble keeping our mash temp over 150 (so all fermentable sugars) - however, this is what you want with the Saison.

So in short, I'm assuming you are using a yeast meant for a Saison, and it will finish fairly dry. But next time, for this beer, kick down the ingredients based on what the efficiency the recipe was written for compared to your system efficency - and next time pay attention to measure your mash efficiency (which based on your process looks good) Also for the Saison, I wouldn't do a mash temp over 150. That'll keep your to all fermentable sugars, high attenuation, and a crisp finish.

I don't have the most control-friendly equipment just yet. I do stovetop partial mash ala DeathBrewer, and stick it in the oven to control temps. Of course, this is a bit tricky when the lowest setting on the oven is 170... I can adjust the mash temp up pretty easily with the oven, with ballpark accuracy.
I don't remember exactly what compelled me to bring the temp over 153, I think it was an "authoritative misinformation scare." The guy who sold me the ingredients, when he found out it was for a saison, suggested I "mash high for a very long time." So I did some crash-course info checking and found some info on efficiency v temp v time and went with the listed mash schedule....

Obviously it worked better than I expected, and yes, I used WLP565. It already passed high krausen a day and a half ago (75F throughout), but I stuck a heating pad on it yesterday and it is sitting at 81 now and still consistently bubbling away.

I do think it will attenuate nicely, below 1.010, since the mash was below 153 longer than it was above. If not, hey, it's still beer.

Definitely a learning experience, and a fun one at that! Lots of new information about my process that I will use to balance future recipes. Thanks for all of the great info!

 

[Jakemo]

Did you mix well after you topped off with additional water. My first brew I made this mistake, my OG reading was 10 points low with extract which had me scratching my head.

Haha yeah, I mixed this one very well. I've grown accustomed to extract OG measurements being low, too.

 

[Jakemo]

that exactly what he was off, check it out

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/i-cant-measure-5-gallons-crazy-248688/

That thread is nuts; I never would've guessed. I use a measuring cup (obviously no guarantee of accuracy) for mash, a depth stick in my brewpot, and a line on my 6gal BB primay. Thank jeebus I never used the bucket ro measure!

 

[BelgianKing]

you could have taken a gravity reading from a concentrated part of the wort. You stated you topped off and aereated, which means you could of either got a watered down OG or a concentrated OG. I had this happen with my first Bock. I was 11pts higher than expected. So I let it settle for a day before I pitched and found out I took a reading from a concentrated part of the wort due to not mixed very well. Just a thought.