could/should I mash roasted grain in sparge water?

[Jwin]

looking at doing 11g of the KTG clone recipe and gyling off of it. I dont want to gyle a porter/brown as I have 11g of porter crashing now. Would rather add a few #s 2row and do a long batch sparge while i boil the KTG wort. I had the thought of mashing/steeping my roasted grains in a seperate small mash, then using that as a mini sparge. That would keep the flavor down in the gyle, but allow(in theory) better utilization of the grain than just a short steep in the wort.
Any downside to this idea? Only thing I can foresee is pH issues in the mini mash.

 

[hottpeper13]

You don't have to mash dark grains as the enzymes are already denatured. In Gordon Strong's recipe book he does a cold steep overnite, like in a coffee press and just add it to the kettle. or just cap the mash with them and sparge,that's what I do.

 

[The_Bishop]

You would be steeping the roasted grains, not mashing them as there's nothing to mash and no enzymes to convert anything, anyhow.

I've done the Strong method for a stout and really didn't like the outcome. You lose a *lot* of the roasted grain presence. Turned the stout into more of a porter.

 

[Jwin]

Thanks for the replies and correction in semantics. Warm steeping in a mash tun at mash temps. Good thing I didn't mention Decoction.
So, here is my reasoning expanded:
1)able to make a 2nd non roasted beer off the 2nd runnings(thinking a bitter atm)
2)I have had some efficiency issues as of late, just got my own mill and hoping that fixes it BUT i want to take as many variables out of the equation as possible to determine if it has been crush all along of something in my process, i.e. pH issues resulted from several pounds of roasted grains
3)i would hope that by warm steeping the roasted grains separate in a mash tun at mash temperatures for the same duration as the mash i would extract all of their flavor potential with no ill effects.
3b)this is vs cold steeping(lack of flavor)
steeping in the wort BIAB/partial "mash" style(possible grain in the kettle as i would have to use a paint strainer, slow down the brew day, potentially less flavor contribution if not steeped long enough)

Anyhow, is there any issue with doing a warm steep in a mash tun at mash temps, namely pH/tannin extraction? Would pH buffer help prevent this? Any water adjustments I could blindly make to prevent tannin extraction? This is a huge grain bill and i would like to not muck it up and end with a good 2nd beer as well.

thank, jeremy

 

[Jwin]

just for clarification, it's 11g of this recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=217674
my bill:

40 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM)
2 lbs Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM)
1 lbs Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
1 lbs 4.0 oz Midnight wheat (744.0 SRM)
1 lbs 5.8 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM)
1 lbs 4.5 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
1 lbs Crystal Extra Dark - 120L (Crisp) (120.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Chocolate (Briess) (350.0 SRM)
7.3 oz Crystal 120, 2-Row, (Great Western) (120.0 SRM)
2.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]
1 lbs 8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
1 lbs Crystal, Maris Otter Heritage (Simpsons) (55.0 SRM)
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)
12.0 oz Roasted Barley (Muntons) (525.0 SRM)
3.00 oz Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 90.0 min
2.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 90.0 min
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
2.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min
2.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Aroma Steep 15.0 min

and i would be steeping in my hlt throughout the mash period

 

[Jwin]

Through google-fu it seems this isn't far fetched. Some say to watch pH in the steep, others say it doesn't matter. I think a 15-20 minute steep at 155-160 should be the way to go, keeping some baking soda on hand if needed. Any others ideas or concerns I should be looking at?

 

[hottpeper13]

You don't need to be concerned about pH because there is no conversion going on just extracting flavor. Because they are acidic grains your kettle pH will be affected,so keep an eye on that after adding.

 

[Jwin]

You don't need to be concerned about pH because there is no conversion going on just extracting flavor. Because they are acidic grains your kettle pH will be affected,so keep an eye on that after adding.

Thanks for the reply! Felt like i was talking to myself for a bit...
So there is no point at which pH will alter the flavors, namely harshness /tannins?
Also, if I batch sparge the main grain bed with the "roasted wort", is pH still not a concern?

The second question is one I've yet b to see addressed.

 

[hottpeper13]

As long as your mash pH was in range 5.2-5.6 your conversion went well, your good. Adding at vorlof or mashout at 170* the dark grains or steeped wort is acidic and will lower the pH going into the boil which is what you want.