What the...... Me thinks Tony Magee, over at Lagunitas has finally lost it.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102341790
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102341790
Copyright IPA?
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Haha wow! At least he retracted. I can't believe he thinks that bold "IPA" on an label can only be used on his brand and his alone!
Have you listened to the most recent episode of The Session on the brewing network? Interview on there with MaGee (I think it was mainly before this really broke) and they are talking about trademark, and how laguanitas got its start.....blah, blah, blah...... but he is praising sierra nevada and sort of contradicting the whole "legality" things, and how you don't need lawsuits, etc..... Kind of weird.
starts in almost right away around 10 minutes or so with some of it in regard to "trademark protection"....
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/1167
starts in almost right away around 10 minutes or so with some of it in regard to "trademark protection"....
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/1167
MacOne
Member
Can't really see the case on this one. It's identifying a style not poaching on the brand. On the other hand these guys had more of a case.....
http://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2014/05/jack-daniels-drops-popcorn-sutton-lawsuit/
http://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2014/05/jack-daniels-drops-popcorn-sutton-lawsuit/
I read his book recently and in it he says when he was starting up and looking for his niche beer he decided against a pale ale as not to compete with sierra nevada. So he went with IPA, which is the beer that sold most and made most of his money (I'm paraphrasing here) . From the book I get the idea he feels like he's been doing the IPA thing for so long and he stayed out of sierra nevada's way so they should do the same.
I never liked lagunita's beer and from reading his book and sierra nevadas book it further reinforced my dislike for lagunitas, even before this stuff.
I never liked lagunita's beer and from reading his book and sierra nevadas book it further reinforced my dislike for lagunitas, even before this stuff.
seigex
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Last thing the craft brew industry needs at the burgeoning of the industry is the start of bitter rivals. a long as it's not blatant theft of intellectual property, leave the rivalries for when the market saturated..right now its anybody's game and there's no end in sight for growth.
JordanKnudson
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I'm sitting here drinking a Lagunitas Hairy Eyeball as I read this.
What a strange thing to sue over. I mean, in this situation specifically. The Jack Daniels suit that someone above mentioned makes sense, but this...
Still, though, it seems to me that stuff like this is inevitable as the craft beer market gets bigger and bigger. Kind of like in sports, I think that down the road the "storied rivalries" between the pioneers of craft brewing will be as much a part of the history as the beer itself.
What a strange thing to sue over. I mean, in this situation specifically. The Jack Daniels suit that someone above mentioned makes sense, but this...
Still, though, it seems to me that stuff like this is inevitable as the craft beer market gets bigger and bigger. Kind of like in sports, I think that down the road the "storied rivalries" between the pioneers of craft brewing will be as much a part of the history as the beer itself.
Herein lies the problem with the way IP laws stand. He has to defend his trademark, as does anyone who has one. That's just the way the law is - if you dont defend your trademark, it gets diluted and, eventually, you can lose it. Unfortunately, that means a lot of silly lawsuits, usually from really big companies against really small (mom and pop) ones. Quite honestly, I was shocked to hear he dropped it. My guess, and this is pure speculation, is they are working on (or reached) some sort of licensing agreement for use of the mark.
Magnus314
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Ummm... this category has been around for 40 years... not "burgeoning" and the market is ALREADY saturated.
Just ask yourself, "without eliminating anyone, where would my grocery store put the next most famous IPA?"
Answer = get rid of someone else.
seigex
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Ummmmm..... (what are we 5?)
Dictionary.com
burgeon [bur-juh n]
verb (used without object)
1. to grow or develop quickly; flourish:
Merriam-Webster
bur·geon verb \ˈbər-jən\
: to grow or develop quickly
intransitive verb
1 a : to send forth new growth (as buds or branches) : sprout
b : bloom
2: to grow and expand rapidly : flourish
Yes, the craft brew has been around for a long time, but you can't deny that it has grown rapidly within recent years, which is by definition burgeoning.
The craft brew industry is only saturated if you're stuck in a grocery store, using your example. However, tap rooms from big and small craft breweries alike, along with the growth of the brewpub industry and higher end craft brew bars are causing the industry to grow like crazy. A simple Google search will learn you of the growth of the industry.
I purchase about 75% of my craft brew from outside of the grocery store. And additionally stores are adding more and more craft brew than ever before, pushing other items out of the shelves. In my grocery store, not only did craft brew take over an entire fridge isle, but they are moving wines out and craft brews in.
Additionally, craft brew is also commanding a larger market share of the beer industry as a whole, taking it from established commercial breweries every year.
Magnus314
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Craft brew sales volume hasn't grown in years. It's an increasingly high percent of a smaller and smaller market as less people drink beer overall.
The DOLLARS per sale have - due to rising prices, and the definition of "craft" to include micro's owned by Macros has added confusion (if you consider Blue Moon a micro, well then, we disagree). That plus new vendors like Whole Foods, Trader Joes, World of Beer, etc selling increasingly large "micro brewer" offerings has led to the look of proliferation in a decreasing market,
Magnus314
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To be clear: Niki Minaj (spelling?) and Jay-Z have increased wine sales percentages of Moscato more than every singe american micro brewer has increased Pale Ale or IPA sales COMBINED since 2000.
seigex
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What's your definition of growth?
BREWERS ASSOCIATION ANNOUNCES 2013 CRAFT BREWER GROWTH
The Brewers Association (BA), the trade association representing small and independent American craft brewers, today released 2013 data on U.S. craft brewing¹ growth. As a primary driver of growth in the beer industry, craft brewers saw an 18 percent rise in volume², representing a total of 15.6 million barrels, and a 20 percent increase in retail dollar value.
In 2013, craft brewers reached 7.8 percent volume of the total U.S. beer market, up from 6.5 percent the previous year. Additionally, craft dollar share of the total U.S. beer market reached 14.3 percent in 2013, as retail dollar value from craft brewers was estimated at $14.3 billion, up from $11.9 billion in 2012.
“With this stellar year, craft has now averaged 10.9 percent growth over the last decade,” said Bart Watson, staff economist, Brewers Association. “Beer drinkers are excited about what small and independent brewers are offering and that is evidenced by the rising production and sales of the craft segment.”
Additionally, the number of operating breweries in the U.S. in 2013 totaled 2,822, with 2,768 of those considered craft, demonstrating that craft breweries make up 98 percent of all U.S. operating breweries. This count includes 413 new brewery openings and 44 closings. Combined with already existing and established breweries and brewpubs, craft brewers provided 110,273 jobs, an increase of almost 2,000 from the previous year.
...
http://www.brewersassociation.org/p...sociation-announces-2013-craft-brewer-growth/
State of the Craft Beer Industry 2013 (this one's a presention and graph heavy so you have to click on it to get the impact)
Whereas Beer as an industry has decreased at a CAGR of (0.3%)
from 2007 to 2012P, Craft has grown at 10% annually
– 13% Craft growth from 2010 to 2011 and 12% growth
projected from 2011 to 2012P
– After 3 years of industry decline, the overall Beer Industry
is expected to increase in 2012P
– AB InBev (47%) and MillerCoors (28%) together represent
75% of the U.S. Beer Industry
 Craft Beer is projected to represent nearly 15% of the Beer
Industry by 2020 at current growth rates
– Craft’s growth is driven by current beer drinkers drinking
more Craft as well as consumers of other beverage alcohol
trading into Craft
Despite U.S. Beer Industry Declines, Premium Beer Continues Strong Growth
...
http://demetergroup.net/sites/defau...ent/State-of-the-Craft-Beer-Industry-2013.pdf
Would you like to repeat your claim regarding growth?
BREWERS ASSOCIATION ANNOUNCES 2013 CRAFT BREWER GROWTH
The Brewers Association (BA), the trade association representing small and independent American craft brewers, today released 2013 data on U.S. craft brewing¹ growth. As a primary driver of growth in the beer industry, craft brewers saw an 18 percent rise in volume², representing a total of 15.6 million barrels, and a 20 percent increase in retail dollar value.
In 2013, craft brewers reached 7.8 percent volume of the total U.S. beer market, up from 6.5 percent the previous year. Additionally, craft dollar share of the total U.S. beer market reached 14.3 percent in 2013, as retail dollar value from craft brewers was estimated at $14.3 billion, up from $11.9 billion in 2012.
“With this stellar year, craft has now averaged 10.9 percent growth over the last decade,” said Bart Watson, staff economist, Brewers Association. “Beer drinkers are excited about what small and independent brewers are offering and that is evidenced by the rising production and sales of the craft segment.”
Additionally, the number of operating breweries in the U.S. in 2013 totaled 2,822, with 2,768 of those considered craft, demonstrating that craft breweries make up 98 percent of all U.S. operating breweries. This count includes 413 new brewery openings and 44 closings. Combined with already existing and established breweries and brewpubs, craft brewers provided 110,273 jobs, an increase of almost 2,000 from the previous year.
...
http://www.brewersassociation.org/p...sociation-announces-2013-craft-brewer-growth/
State of the Craft Beer Industry 2013 (this one's a presention and graph heavy so you have to click on it to get the impact)
Whereas Beer as an industry has decreased at a CAGR of (0.3%)
from 2007 to 2012P, Craft has grown at 10% annually
– 13% Craft growth from 2010 to 2011 and 12% growth
projected from 2011 to 2012P
– After 3 years of industry decline, the overall Beer Industry
is expected to increase in 2012P
– AB InBev (47%) and MillerCoors (28%) together represent
75% of the U.S. Beer Industry
 Craft Beer is projected to represent nearly 15% of the Beer
Industry by 2020 at current growth rates
– Craft’s growth is driven by current beer drinkers drinking
more Craft as well as consumers of other beverage alcohol
trading into Craft
Despite U.S. Beer Industry Declines, Premium Beer Continues Strong Growth
...
http://demetergroup.net/sites/defau...ent/State-of-the-Craft-Beer-Industry-2013.pdf
Would you like to repeat your claim regarding growth?
This is how bad it can get...
In NZ "Radler" got trademarked by the Singaporean and Dutch owned brewing company "DB". And their radler beer isn't even true to style...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/5284136/DB-wins-its-battle-over-Radler-beer
JordanKnudson
Well-Known Member
I'm not jumping in on either side of the argument here, but I'm curious about what you say about less people drinking beer overall. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case in my social circles (i.e. friends, family, coworkers, my college students, etc.). Admittedly, that's a limited sample, but it's no more limited than what anyone else would be looking at, so is it possible that you have a study of some sort that reflects this supposed change? Or is it a change that you are seeing in your own observations? Again, not being argumentative, just curious about the source of the information.
JordanKnudson
Well-Known Member
Ah, I see that seigex's post includes numbers for a slight decline in the overall beer industry from 2007-2012. I'd be curious if this is strictly a diminution in demand, or if there has been any reduction in supply, especially on the part of the big brewers (who would obviously create more significant changes to the numbers).
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
Exactly this. A hilariously small segment of the beer market. They went from one of every 16 beers to one out every 15 beers and they're crowing about it. AB/Inbev in laughing all the way to the bank...
And remember, IPA/Pale Ale is only a small percentage of that growth. So they're up LESS than 1.3% in sales by your own numbers, and they're suing each other over it!
Silentdrinker
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This entire threads is full of confusion.
First, it's over a TRADEMARK a not copywrite.
He's not suing over any beer. He's suing because he believes they copied his logo. He wouldn't win. In order to win it has to be within X % of the original logo. Even if Sierra used his logo as inspiration, they made plenty of changes on that logo to make a clear distinction between the two brands.
And last - laguanitas makes some solid freaking beers. It's clear from past issues, like the weed bust and how he responded to it, he likes to get free publicity. It seems to be a working business model thus far.
First, it's over a TRADEMARK a not copywrite.
He's not suing over any beer. He's suing because he believes they copied his logo. He wouldn't win. In order to win it has to be within X % of the original logo. Even if Sierra used his logo as inspiration, they made plenty of changes on that logo to make a clear distinction between the two brands.
And last - laguanitas makes some solid freaking beers. It's clear from past issues, like the weed bust and how he responded to it, he likes to get free publicity. It seems to be a working business model thus far.
seigex
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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You started off by dismissing my assertion that there's room to grow in the industry, so craft breweries shouldn't be fighting until it's saturated and they need to find another edge on each other, by saying that the industry is saturated and there's absolutely no growth, then you move on to trying to prove how small of a market share they have and how unsaturated the market is by craft brew. Also, I never mentioned a specific style of craft brew in my original point, so that's irrelevant.
Yes relatively craft brew is currently small, but it's growing, or burgeoning. There's been a big spate of growth in the last decade (and much more so in the last 5 years), a small time frame in the grand scheme, keeping in mind that ABInben/MBC/ has been around since the 1850's, and Coors the 1870s. And the steam is starting to pick up. This proves the point of my original post. If the craft brew is only commanding 7.8%, up from 6.5% the previous year, 1.3% increase (a huge number relative to the entire beer industry), then they still have 92.2% to grow. This will increase exponentially as craft continues to gain interest of former BMC drinkers.
And I don't think AB/Inbev is laughing all the way to the bank. They're still making profits, but those profits are decreasing, hence their answer to craft brew with some of their recent offerings (remember Budweiser American Ale?) and others. I think they're scared as they see their once mighty kingdom starting to crumble from under them.
Remember it's not just craft brew, but the food industry is going through the same thing right now with the growth of higher end gastropubs and the like and the growth of the foodie/food blog industry.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
Everything you're saying here is emotionally true for us homebrewers, and proves my point.
Lagunitas IPA cannot grow their market share more than 1.3% per year without lowering some other IPA's growth the same.
And while craft beer is doing "ok" as a category (10% growth with 4.9% inflation is not amazing), "Beer" as a whole is doing poorly, with cheap beer doing the best and formerly expensive beers like imports made in Connecticut and "premium" lagers made om factories all over doing less well.
But the point of this thread is Lagunitas IPA having a tredemark (or copyright) to a big "IPA" logo on there bottles, and suing Sierra Nevada over an alleged knock-off of it.
Silly, really, with any historical look back, even Google.
And on top of that, it suggests that Lagunitas has basically NO historical knowledge, not even as far back as the late '80's early '90's when about 90% of microbreweries went out of business last time through this exact same ride.
seigex
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Proves what point? And what's "emotionally?" I gave you hard numbers of growth in the industry in 2013 and disproved your saturation and lack of growth points.
This would assume that there are nobody out there who don't drink IPA's, nobody is turning 21, people aren't living longer, people's expendable cash flows aren't growing, and there aren't a whole bunch of people who are not currently drinking craft brew and IPAs (a mainly Southern California beer), and won't be introduced to it through friends, homebrew, interest, and successful marketing. That's a lot of assumptions. They can absolutely increase growth of their share in IPAs while not decreasing another craft breweries own offerings. Craft brew is not a zero sum game.
Are you kidding me? 10% subset growth and 1.3% GROWTH out of the ENTIRE $100B industry is amazing, especially in an industry that's seeing a net loss as a whole, shared amongst roughly 2200 craft breweries (without looking back at the numbers) is $500,000 in growth PER BREWERY. That's not chump change, any industry would like to have 10% growth. Keep in mind my point was SPECIFIC to the craft brew section of the brewing industry.
I also wouldn't say a $100B industry is "doing poorly" .. there's a 1.6% loss in the industry as whole, which is a bump in the road. You can't on one hand saying a 1% drop is "doing poorly" while the capturing of a 1.3% increase of industry by a growing subset is just meh.
We're not arguing the point of this thread, we're arguing your reply to my thread that there's room to grow and shouldn't be infighting since there's still enough market share to go around as craft consumes BMC. I stand by my original post.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
40 years to get to LESS than 8% of the existing market is NOT:
I believe this is exactly the (missed) point of this thread: micro's are turning on each other at increasing rates because as they grow they are starting to realize they are fighting for the same market share no matter WHERE they are in the country.
It's fun and games to play nice when they sell everything they can make. Then one day they upgrade and get cut throat when they can't max out sales anymore, and it all turns to suing each other and all the tactics emotional homebrewers want to believe are for "A-Hole" Macro's only.
I believe this is exactly the (missed) point of this thread: micro's are turning on each other at increasing rates because as they grow they are starting to realize they are fighting for the same market share no matter WHERE they are in the country.
It's fun and games to play nice when they sell everything they can make. Then one day they upgrade and get cut throat when they can't max out sales anymore, and it all turns to suing each other and all the tactics emotional homebrewers want to believe are for "A-Hole" Macro's only.
seigex
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Again, burgeoning, and the same point I've made several times, means NEW growth, spurt of growth.. follow the conversation.
What don't you get? Let me remove the double negative. Not everybody drinks IPAs. Even though you seem to think so, there are MANY people in this country who have never had an IPA before. Therefore that would be potential gains to the IPA portion of the craft brew market, and hence (wait for it) there's still room to grow.
If you're going to tell me it's not, then don't just tell me to check any financial website, but provide numbers. I just googled a few and I see no drop since 2008 in disposable income per capita, only increase. And that doesn't include anecdotally seeing the increase in higher priced food, cars, beer, etc.. etc.. etc..
American IPA is a Southern California thing. And it's not "IMPERIAL" pale ale, it's "INDIA" pale ale, there are two distinct styles of IPA, American IPA from Southern California, and the English IPA which has a history dating back to troop movements in india and transfer of beer. They are NOT the same thing. Learn your beer history before you trying to be a smartass. (and yes I do know IPAs are on the East coast and elsewhere in the country, but it's not as popular as IPAs are in California)
Numbers? Do you speak for the people who are to be introduced? The rate has already been increasing, hence the GROWTH in the industry. I'm trying to keep this civil, but I'm really starting to think you're dense.
They is HE, Lagunitas Guy, and HE is a *******.
Again you speak for THEY/HE? It's not a zero sum game my friend. A customer gained for one, is not a customer lost for another. Be it by craft industry customer acquisition, or by customers expanding. Or other methods as I mentioned earlier.
A 6.5% to 7.8% jump in one year, when AS YOU SAID, they've been around for 40 years and hadn't captured 2% prior to 2000, by your numbers that means that in 30 of the previous 40 years, they had only managed to get and maintain 2%, but in the last 10, they have jumped an addition 5.8%. THAT IS THE EXACT DEFINITION OF BURGEONING.
Again, my posts have countered the point you're trying to make here. The micros are not turning on eachother, Lagunitas Guy is just an *******, doing what ******** do. And honestly their beer sucks (IMHO). He's getting up in years, and Lagunitas has run out of ideas and has topped out and they themselves aren't growing in an otherwise growing industry with all the new options out there. He's not trying to get rid of SN's IPA, but wants to stake his claim as the CREATOR OF THE IPA!!!!111!11!1!oneone!1
Calichusetts
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Mike_kever_kombi
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seigex
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Sadly, I had this exact conversation with SWMBO last night when she asked why I was ignoring her. FML
fuzzy2133
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My thought on the whole thing was simply MaGee taking steps to protect his trade mark. Yes it appeared to be a slam dunk loss for him however in the long term it serves as proof that he has been protecting his labels.
I can not stand all the FB comments about people looking down on Laguintas and not drinking their product again. They are just clue less with what has happened with DFH and others getting attacked by large brewers.
I can not stand all the FB comments about people looking down on Laguintas and not drinking their product again. They are just clue less with what has happened with DFH and others getting attacked by large brewers.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
When I typed "Imperial Pale Ale" I forgot the word "India"... my mistake, typing at 2AM, and it makes the whole thing senseless...
Anyway, as a Brewery Lagunitas knows they need to grab shelf space from someone to sell more of their beer. And they are going to alienate a good bit of their core audience if they keep hammering other micro's with lawsuits and making wild claims.
Anyway, as a Brewery Lagunitas knows they need to grab shelf space from someone to sell more of their beer. And they are going to alienate a good bit of their core audience if they keep hammering other micro's with lawsuits and making wild claims.
Silentdrinker
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threat today; hippocrate tomorrow.
Clonefan94
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This is interesting, because it was a similar situation to what led us to this point in brewing history. There were a lot of local breweries, all selling to a select group. Some of these wanted to expand and go national. At that time buying them out was easier than suing, so I wonder if we will ever see that side again outside of AB InBev. lagunitas just built a brewery in Chicago. Locally I see a lot more Revolition beers on tap than I do Lagunitas. Eventually something is going to have to give to gain market share here. Does anyone think these medium sized independent breweries will start looking to buy out locals?
On the other hand, to say there is no growth potential outside of the existing beer market, really isn't true. Wine pulled it off. Brewers just need to find a way to get those people who don't drink beer. There are a lot of those people out there. I know a lot of wine drinkers who wouldn't touch the stuff 10 years ago. Most of them were stolen from the beer market. May only be a select amount of space on beer shelves, but what if they started looking to the wine shelves? Most grocery stores have a lot more space for wine then they do for beer, at least in my area.
The craft industry as a whole almost needs to get a PR firm to start working for them to attract drinkers who don't drink beer. Over all, beer still seems like a working man/sports watcher's drink. I know there are a lot of women who drink craft beer, but I'd still say, over all the female market for beer is the one I'd be going after. Even at brewpubs I go to, sure most of the guys have a beer, but I still see at least half the women either drinking wine, mixed drink or a soft drink.
There is huge potential outside of the existing beer market, they just need to find a direction to tap into it without alienating the classic beer drinking group.
Hell as someone said above, get pop stars to start singing or rapping about drinking an IPA.
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fuzzy2133
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Sadly true.
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Competing IPAs..., bitter rivals..., pun intended?
seigex
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Damn, nice catch. I wish I could say it was...errr uh I mean yes, yes, intended.
Troutchaser
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That is so ridiculous. First the labels don't look anything alike. Second I don't think seirra Nevada wants to be confused with Lagunitas because they make way better beer.
In my opinion, Little Sumpin Sumpin and Brown Shugga are better than anything SN puts out, and I'm a big fan of SN. I also don't think the labels are similar enough to be confused.
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