- Cooling wort / No-chill / Botulism?

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zosimus

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Hello,

After reading some articles about the potential for botulism in a brew, it seems like pretty unlikely regardless of the method used, but I read an article indicating there is a slight chance if you use the no-chill method of cooling down your wort.

I am budget-friendly brewer and have avoided purchasing a whole setup (including a wort cooler) and have as of recently cooled using an ice bath.
The last batch though, I couldn't get to the right temp for pitching yeast fast enough so I threw it in my freezer. The fermenter sat in there for 1-2 hours before being the right temperature. Once that was right, I pitched the yeast and put in my cooling chamber.

My only worry is my fermenter wasn't completely sealed while in the freezer as it has a hole in the top and my airlock didn't fit in the freezer so I left it off.

So far no off-smells or anything and I am a sanitizing fanatic so I think everything is probably okay, but wondering about the communities experience? If anyone has done a half chill method and let the wort sit a little longer than 2 hours before pitching....??
 
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Lots of us started brewing before we knew what a wort chiller was, much less owned one. It used to take me at least a couple of hours to chill my extract brews in the kitchen sink with multiple changes of tap water and then ice water. Two hours before pitching shouldn't be a problem. Next time, cover the airlock hole with a piece of sanitized saran wrap.
 
Yeah I've gone down the botulism rabbit hole with homebrewing and to my knowledge the risk of it is pretty low unless you leave your wort to cool for more than 3 days and even then it's apparently not necessarily likely.

A non-zero risk is still present though... I guess the thing that makes it much less likely is a non-oxygen environment, so the toxin is more likely to be produced in cans than in wort or must that is exposed to the air to some extent.

I don't love that it is non-zero though, but I am more likely to get in a severe car accident then for botulism to grow in my brew.

Although after reading some more, I am a little bit more worried about ciders and fruits. Typically I use thawed fruit (from frozen) and I don't pasteurize anything. I just thaw the fruit and throw it in. Does anyone know if that increases risk?
 
I don't know anything about the botulism possibility when using no-chill. I'd like to read about it. Do you have a link to the article?

As far as your brew, my concern would be about the hole in the lid. Contaminated batch - maybe. But I have no idea about botulism.
 
I mostly brew dark beers, and occasional IPAs. I have never chilled my brews. Usually just seal the lid with the bung/trap in place and pitch in the morning, or a few hours later, whatever suits the time of day I started...
 
It's a risk with anything. But we minimize the risk by how clean and sanitary we keep everything we use while making beer. Or any food or beverage product for that matter. Even the room we brew in should be spotlessly clean. But I'm sure many of us get away with less than spotless brew rooms for our homebrew. But if you look at the commercial brewers, they are always cleaning and sanitizing everything. Including the rooms the brew in.
 
I don't know anything about the botulism possibility when using no-chill. I'd like to read about it. Do you have a link to the article?

As far as your brew, my concern would be about the hole in the lid. Contaminated batch - maybe. But I have no idea about botulism.
These are the 2 articles I read. Scientifically it is possible with unfermented wort although many people do get away with it and there have been no reported cases.
https://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2020/01/29/botulism-in-beer/

https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/botulism/
 
It's a risk with anything. But we minimize the risk by how clean and sanitary we keep everything we use while making beer. Or any food or beverage product for that matter. Even the room we brew in should be spotlessly clean. But I'm sure many of us get away with less than spotless brew rooms for our homebrew. But if you look at the commercial brewers, they are always cleaning and sanitizing everything. Including the rooms the brew in.
Yeah I do agree it's always best to be safer rather than sorry.
Cleaning/Sanitizing does kill a lot of bacteria, but that's the nasty thing about the bacteria spore that causes the botulism virus. It's known to survive a heck ton of cleaning solutions including bleach, acids and alcohol solutions(like in starsan). That is why the FDA requires manufacturers to heat canned goods to over 240 fahrenheit, because that is the only method to safely destroy the spores.

Albeit, you can theoretically 'wipe up' the microorganisms, but I wouldn't rely on that entirely
 
With no chill brewing you are transferring boiling to near boiling wort into a hot cube. Boiling = bad for bacteria. The hot cube is filled to max capacity or pretty darn close reducing O2 ingress. No O2 = bad for bacteria. Then you ferment the wort where the yeast consume O2 (still bad for bacteria) and produce alcohol. Alcohol = bad for bacteria. I haven't mentioned this in the previous discussion but I'm sure the hops aren't exactly friendly to bacteria either. The risk of botulism toxins forming are miniscule.
 
With no chill brewing you are transferring boiling to near boiling wort into a hot cube. Boiling = bad for bacteria. The hot cube is filled to max capacity or pretty darn close reducing O2 ingress. No O2 = bad for bacteria. Then you ferment the wort where the yeast consume O2 (still bad for bacteria) and produce alcohol. Alcohol = bad for bacteria. I haven't mentioned this in the previous discussion but I'm sure the hops aren't exactly friendly to bacteria either. The risk of botulism toxins forming are miniscule.
I do think you are right in that it is unlikely, but I should note that the bacteria that causes botulism does the opposite of most bacteria in that it needs close to zero oxygen to grow. Less than 1%, so it's better for you to have an oxygenated environment when it comes to this virus.
Additionally, the spores of the bacteria that causes botulism are notoriously difficult to destroy/kill and can withstand boiling temperatures. Which is why the FDA recommends pressure cooking at 15psi pressure which will get to temps that do destroy the spores (required 240 fahrenheit minimum).
The spores also withstand up to 6% alcohol before they become inhibited to grow (although importantly, they still exist, they just can't grow after 6% abv).
So although beer is inhospitable to most bacteria and pathogens, this is not one of them given circumstances (high pH and lower alcohol).
 
I've been playing the lottery for about 45 years and I'm still next to dirt-poor. I'd be more concerned with brewing outdoors or in a shed or garage:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/rabies-death-1.7341335
and here's a good soundtrack for looking at the world:

Seriously: Relax! This is well-meant, you are more likely to be killed by your own political process than by homebrew.
:mug:
 
With no chill brewing you are transferring boiling to near boiling wort into a hot cube. Boiling = bad for bacteria. The hot cube is filled to max capacity or pretty darn close reducing O2 ingress. No O2 = bad for bacteria. Then you ferment the wort where the yeast consume O2 (still bad for bacteria) and produce alcohol. Alcohol = bad for bacteria. I haven't mentioned this in the previous discussion but I'm sure the hops aren't exactly friendly to bacteria either. The risk of botulism toxins forming are miniscule.
There isn't much research on the antibacterial nature of hops, but it is possible and seen in some experiments.
There are basically 3 things that help you against this particular bacteria. Alcohol, acid and yeast. Yeast is only helpful when it's not dormant and eating because it basically 'competes' against the other bacteria.
C. Botulinum requires these conditions to grow:
Low acid (below 4.6pH)
Low oxygen (less than 1%)
Low sugar (less than 30%)
Low alcohol (less than 6%)
Low Salt
Temperature range (typically close to room temp to like 100 f)
A certain viscosity (water content)

Beer wort meets these conditions typically and even finished beer can meet these conditions.
I can't really explain to you why it hasn't been observed more (although the prison hooch cases was one of the largest breakouts in the US for a long time), but normal brewing conditions don't necessarily prohibit growth.
IPAs, pale ales and lagers are high pH and can often land above 4.6pH
Lagers often land under 6%
 
Beer's low pH (<4.6) is the protector against botulism.
Yeah that was what I was thinking, but then I was reading about pH of alcohol (and even tested a beer out of my fridge), and there are quite a few styles that end up at a higher than 4.6 pH.
Pilsner (4.1-4.9)
Blonde ale (5.1-5.4)
Brown ale (5.2-5.6)
Pale ale (5.3-5.4)
IPA (5.3-5.5)

That's the final pH, so as long as any of those are less than 6% alcohol, theoretically they're susceptible
 
2 botulism threads, oy vey
find me a case of a person who got botulism from homebrew. there are none.
i dont mean the prison hooch case in mississippi i mean like a homebrewer who gave themselves or someone else botulism.
 
2 botulism threads, oy vey
find me a case of a person who got botulism from homebrew. there are none.
i dont mean the prison hooch case in mississippi i mean like a homebrewer who gave themselves or someone else botulism
This isn't a confirmed case, as there was no testing done on the substance, but due to the fact that homebrew was involved, I think it is most likely.

https://www.jpeocbrnd.osd.mil/Media...he-real-world-importance-of-medical-counterm/

And if it can happen in prison hooch, it could happen in homebrew. Not saying it will, or even that it's likely. Just that it can happen.

Edit: Link was broken I just fixed
 
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This isn't a confirmed case, as there was no testing done on the substance, but due to the fact that homebrew was involved, I think it is most likely.

https://www.jpeocbrnd.osd.mil/Media...he-real-world-importance-of-medical-counterm/

And if it can happen in prison hooch, it could happen in homebrew. Not saying it will, or even that it's likely. Just that it can happen.
Pruno in a toilet.
it's possible; That an AI will ressurect the ghost of Danny Kaye who will tell you (again):
the vessel with the urine
is the basin with botulism
the kettle with the brew-bag
holds the brew that is true
Above I suggested a greater likelihood of being killed by your political process, and at risk of deletion I must say that you are doing right now, exactly what has made that possible:
PAFF_112116_misinformationPSPI_article-2864232682.jpeg

Seriously!! LET GO AND RELAX!
There are vastly more present and likely dangers in life! I do feel your suffering and empathize, but digging your heels in will only spread unfounded panic and misinformation.
haveahomebrew.jpg
 
With no chill brewing you are transferring boiling to near boiling wort into a hot cube. Boiling = bad for bacteria. The hot cube is filled to max capacity or pretty darn close reducing O2 ingress. No O2 = bad for bacteria. Then you ferment the wort where the yeast consume O2 (still bad for bacteria) and produce alcohol. Alcohol = bad for bacteria. I haven't mentioned this in the previous discussion but I'm sure the hops aren't exactly friendly to bacteria either. The risk of botulism toxins forming are miniscule.
Depends on the bacteria....

botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium, meaning it can only grow in the absence of oxygen. Foodborne botulism occurs when C. botulinum grows and produces toxins in food prior to consumption.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/botulism#:~:text=botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium,in food prior to consumption.

But in general for the reasons you stated, the risk is minimal. The way we and the food industry mitigate the food borne illnesses that bacteria and other things can give us is by cleanliness and sanitation. Certainly the near boiling liquid poured into cubes and even those disposable bags made for no chill brewing, minimize the risk to nearly zero. But of course things sometimes get through as evidenced by food recalls and such. And in most of those cases, it gets back to someone not doing the proper cleaning and sanitizing procedures.
 
Pruno in a toilet.
it's possible; That an AI will ressurect the ghost of Danny Kaye who will tell you (again):
the vessel with the urine
is the basin with botulism
the kettle with the brew-bag
holds the brew that is true
Above I suggested a greater likelihood of being killed by your political process, and at risk of deletion I must say that you are doing right now, exactly what has made that possible:
View attachment 859473
Seriously!! LET GO AND RELAX!
There are vastly more present and likely dangers in life! I do feel your suffering and empathize, but digging your heels in will only spread unfounded panic and misinformation.
View attachment 859474
You're right, I don't want to discourage anyone from homebrewing or drinking beer!

My mental anguish is my own and I want iterate that I am still going to drink beer and homebrew because it is very unlikely as you stated.
But also, it's always a good idea to keep things sanitized and clean to reduce risks. And if you do no chill, it's good to at least know the risk is there (however unlikely).
Also don't put potatoes in your brew...
 
Talking sanitation on here is preaching to the choir...I really do feel for you so here's a suggestion:
You're clearly scientific minded so take a day or two of immersing yourself in recreational probabalistic math and then read (or re-read) The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy.

:mug:
 
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Talking sanitation on here is preaching to the choir...I really do feel for you so here's a suggestion:
You're clearly scientific minded so take a day or two of immersing yourself in recreational probabalistic math and then read (or re-read) The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy.

:mug:
Truth😂. Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds relaxing and will do
 
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I like to do a lot of canning at home, and I strictly follow the USDA guidelines. There's a slew of information on safe practices and how to avoid botulism. One thing that's incredibly useful for this discussion is that in order to prevent botulism, one must know the pH of what is to be canned. The important number is 4.6. If it's higher than that number, it must be pressure canned to destroy botulinum spores. If it's lower than 4.6, it can be safely run through a water bath process. The acidity below 4.6 either kills the spores or hinders them from growing. After all, the toxins are produced when the spores begin to grow in an anaerobic environment. The presence of the spores and/or bacteria cells themselves won't cause any illness. Since finished beer has an average pH of 4.0-4.2, you're well beyond the safe acidity range to prevent botulism, so long as you pitch yeast in a reasonable time frame. If you're aerating/oxygenating your wort, the spores won't have the environment necessary to create toxins.
 
the bacteria that causes botulism does the opposite of most bacteria in that it needs close to zero oxygen to grow
Anaerobes are not exactly rare, and plenty of bacteria are facultative - able to survive and grow in both high and low oxygen environments.
due to the fact that homebrew was involved, I think it is most likely.
Again, he wasn't the only person at the party and it's unlikely that he was the only person who drank the homebrew. But he was the only person who got sick. So I think it's actually quite unlikely.
 
This isn't a confirmed case, as there was no testing done on the substance, but due to the fact that homebrew was involved, I think it is most likely.

https://www.jpeocbrnd.osd.mil/Media...he-real-world-importance-of-medical-counterm/

And if it can happen in prison hooch, it could happen in homebrew. Not saying it will, or even that it's likely. Just that it can happen.

Edit: Link was broken I just fixed
haha . thats hilarious. that is not a case of homebrew causing botulism. thats a case of botulism. thats all. you have absolutely no reason to believe that he got the botulism from the homebrew more than anything else he ate. foodborne botulism is real and most likely his food had toxin on it. maybe it was a bad can of peaches. but i doubt it was the homebrew. and it was very unlikely the homebrew.

this reminds me of when a patient comes into the ER with nausea and vomiting and blames the food at the wedding the night before , not the 18 alabama slammers he downed with the groomsman.
 
Anaerobes are not exactly rare, and plenty of bacteria are facultative - able to survive and grow in both high and low oxygen environments.

Again, he wasn't the only person at the party and it's unlikely that he was the only person who drank the homebrew. But he was the only person who got sick. So I think it's actually quite unlikely.
I agree with a lot here.
One thing though, I do think it's more likely than the food because everyone ate the food at the wedding. It seems most likely to me that there was one bottle of homebrew beer that he drank that no one else did. A standard 12-16oz bottle wouldn't be shared with anyone else, so my guess is that one such bottle was contaminated which to me would make the most sense since it was only him who got sick. Everything else at the party was likely shared to some extent, so a single bottle of homebrew makes the most sense.
Also considering it was a party, I'm assuming there was lots of other beer people brought that was not homebrewed and that may have been selected by party goers instead of the unmarked bottles that. But yeah it does seem unusual no one else got sick.
 
It seems most likely to me that there was one bottle of homebrew beer that he drank that no one else did.
Based on what? The linked article says he "enjoyed a weekend of fun and tradition with friends the weekend of September 22, 2018, enjoying a variety of delicious catered food, drink, and, admittedly, a fair amount of homebrewed beer and wine." Who brings one bottle of homebrew to a wedding and doesn't share? And who would call one bottle of beer "a fair amount"? It's just as likely that someone brought a five gallon keg (or two) to the wedding.
 
I like to do a lot of canning at home, and I strictly follow the USDA guidelines. There's a slew of information on safe practices and how to avoid botulism. One thing that's incredibly useful for this discussion is that in order to prevent botulism, one must know the pH of what is to be canned. The important number is 4.6. If it's higher than that number, it must be pressure canned to destroy botulinum spores. If it's lower than 4.6, it can be safely run through a water bath process. The acidity below 4.6 either kills the spores or hinders them from growing. After all, the toxins are produced when the spores begin to grow in an anaerobic environment. The presence of the spores and/or bacteria cells themselves won't cause any illness. Since finished beer has an average pH of 4.0-4.2, you're well beyond the safe acidity range to prevent botulism, so long as you pitch yeast in a reasonable time frame. If you're aerating/oxygenating your wort, the spores won't have the environment necessary to create toxins
I haven't tested these beer styles, but from what I can tell from my research, there are quite a few styles that end ph above 4.6 including pale ales, IPAs, lagers (sometimes), brown ales, blondes. If pH was the only concern, breweries would likely be required to pressure can their IPAs.
 
Based on what? The linked article says he "enjoyed a weekend of fun and tradition with friends the weekend of September 22, 2018, enjoying a variety of delicious catered food, drink, and, admittedly, a fair amount of homebrewed beer and wine." Who brings one bottle of homebrew to a wedding and doesn't share? And who would call one bottle of beer "a fair amount"? It's just as likely that someone brought a five gallon keg (or two) to the wedding.
I'm not saying he brought a single bottle. For awhile, I didn't own a keg, so I bottled all my beer. I would imagine whoever brought the homebrew also brought bottles. I am only saying that it would seem only a single bottle of that homebrew was infected..this would make the most sense being that only one person got infected. Wedding food is typically shared or on plates and such so it's unlikely to me that that's where the botulism came from. I also think that if the guy had eaten food that historically has had botulism (like canned vegetables/meats/fruit), it probably would be something they suspected as the culprit and also mentioned in the article.
The most likely place for the botulism bacteria to grow is in a non-oxygenated environment over periods of time so a beer bottle. Also since a 12-16oz beer bottle is for a single person, it could be the bacteria only grew in one or so bottles. Not all of the bottles would need to be infected which corresponds with the fact that there was only one confirmed case.
In other words, just because the conditions are right, doesn't mean the bacteria will grow or that the spores were present. So not all of the bottles had to be infected.
If it came from food, it would seem unlikely due to the fact this was party food, unless the event was handing out canned peaches to each guest.

Additionally, some forms of Botulism are milder than others so you could have mild food poisoning and never go to the doctor meaning it was never reported
 
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Hello,

After reading some articles about the potential for botulism in a brew, it seems like pretty unlikely regardless of the method used, but I read an article indicating there is a slight chance if you use the no-chill method of cooling down your wort.

I am budget-friendly brewer and have avoided purchasing a whole setup (including a wort cooler) and have as of recently cooled using an ice bath.
The last batch though, I couldn't get to the right temp for pitching yeast fast enough so I threw it in my freezer. The fermenter sat in there for 1-2 hours before being the right temperature. Once that was right, I pitched the yeast and put in my cooling chamber.

My only worry is my fermenter wasn't completely sealed while in the freezer as it has a hole in the top and my airlock didn't fit in the freezer so I left it off.

So far no off-smells or anything and I am a sanitizing fanatic so I think everything is probably okay, but wondering about the communities experience? If anyone has done a half chill method and let the wort sit a little longer than 2 hours before pitching....??
After reading and participating in your other thread about botulism, I'll let others comment on the safety of your chilling methods.

I'll be happy to comment and hopefully help if you ever get to the point your home brew career when you get concerned if chilling method is affecting DMS levels in your brew. A more realistic danger, even though not at all fatal.
 
I happen to be a microbiologist who is also a homebrewer. And I'll just say that you seem to believe quite a few things about botulism that aren't actually true.
What things have I said that are untrue about botulism? Please correct me
 
Yeah that was what I was thinking, but then I was reading about pH of alcohol (and even tested a beer out of my fridge), and there are quite a few styles that end up at a higher than 4.6 pH.
Pilsner (4.1-4.9)
Blonde ale (5.1-5.4)
Brown ale (5.2-5.6)
Pale ale (5.3-5.4)
IPA (5.3-5.5)

That's the final pH, so as long as any of those are less than 6% alcohol, theoretically they're susceptible
I haven't tested these beer styles, but from what I can tell from my research, there are quite a few styles that end ph above 4.6 including pale ales, IPAs, lagers (sometimes), brown ales, blondes. If pH was the only concern, breweries would likely be required to pressure can their IPAs.
The pilsner might be correct but I think you may be finding mash pH not final. Link to or cite where you found those numbers.
 
I think you may be finding mash pH not final. Link to or cite where you found those numbers.
Those numbers are all over the internet, probably all cribbed from a single original source. Not sure I buy them though. Fermentation lowers pH. Carbnonation lowers pH. Dry hopping raises pH.

I did find and old thread here where members compiled some numbers. Scanned it quickly and didn't see anything above 5. Worth noting that while the rule for home canning without pressure is 4.6, inhibition of germination is reported to start at 4.9. Also found an article from Scott Jaenisch that may be worth a look.
 
The pilsner might be correct but I think you may be finding mash pH not final. Link to or cite where you found those numbers.

Here are a few... It appears more hoppy beers (ones done with dry hops especially) also raise the pH level.
I could be wrong, but I did test a few beers (pilsner and stout) I had in my fridge and noticed they were closer to 5pH (using a pH strip test so maybe less accurate

I would be curious to see more experiments though and from looking just now, there isn't a whole lot of data on finished beer pH I can find. Still looking though.

https://www.oculyze.net/the-beer-acidity-chart/
https://scottjanish.com/a-look-at-ph-in-hoppy-beers/
https://atlas-scientific.com/blog/ph-of-beer/
 
Those numbers are all over the internet, probably all cribbed from a single original source. Not sure I buy them though. Fermentation lowers pH. Carbnonation lowers pH. Dry hopping raises pH.

I did find and old thread here where members compiled some numbers. Scanned it quickly and didn't see anything above 5. Worth noting that while the rule for home canning without pressure is 4.6, inhibition of germination is reported to start at 4.9. Also found an article from Scott Jaenisch that may be worth a look.
Yeah read that dry hopping article too! 😅
Interesting. I am wondering where those numbers are coming from
It does appear people who brew IPA shoot for. 5.0pH post boil and add acid knowing that dry hopping will increase pH. But the range for pale ales seems to be closer to 5 for finished
 
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Those numbers are all over the internet, probably all cribbed from a single original source. Not sure I buy them though. Fermentation lowers pH. Carbnonation lowers pH. Dry hopping raises pH.

I did find and old thread here where members compiled some numbers. Scanned it quickly and didn't see anything above 5. Worth noting that while the rule for home canning without pressure is 4.6, inhibition of germination is reported to start at 4.9. Also found an article from Scott Jaenisch that may be worth a look.
I bought a nicer pH meter so I might do some testing just to see what I can see from finished beer
 

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