Convoluted Counterflow Stainless Steel 99$

[poptarts]

Stainless Steel Convoluted Counter-flow Wort Chiller for 99$

Okay so I was going to buy these and resell them but I feel kinda dirty about it and its a lot of work for 40$ each so enjoy my discovery. 108 shipped with their shipping. There are 14 available. Too bad I just built a new chiller or I would be all over this too.
Happy brewing guys, this is a solid deal since the copper ones sale for twice that amount.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/stainless-steel-convoluted-counter-flow-wort-chiller.html

 

[ImNoExpert]

WOW! Thanks! I'm considering this is a sign that I am meant to have one of these.

Purchased!

 

[tnlandsailor]

I can understand the allure of stainless steel, but it really makes a lousy heat exchanger. I suppose as long as your chill water is cold enough it will get your wort down to temp, but it's going to take a lot more water. Maybe copper is twice the price, but it's definitely 20x more conductive than stainless steel. Just sayin'...

I just finished a write up on chillers here for a more in-depth discussion.

 

[poptarts]

I can understand the allure of stainless steel, but it really makes a lousy heat exchanger. I suppose as long as your chill water is cold enough it will get your wort down to temp, but it's going to take a lot more water. Maybe copper is twice the price, but it's definitely 20x more conductive than stainless steel. Just sayin'...

I just finished a write up on chillers here for a more in-depth discussion.

20x maybe for electricity conductivity but not heat transfer. I didnt look up numbers or anything but if that was the case, say a copper immersion chiller takes 20 mins to cool a batch you are claiming that stainless steel immersion chiller takes 6.3 hours? If that's the case they would be making insulation out of the stuff. Will it be slower than copper? yes. Does an extra 2 minutes cooling time ought weigh the fact that it is stainless and wont grow toxic green stuff and its got way more bling bling make it better than copper? Probably for most people yea.

 

[augiedoggy]

20x maybe for electricity conductivity but not heat transfer. I didnt look up numbers or anything but if that was the case, say a copper immersion chiller takes 20 mins to cool a batch you are claiming that stainless steel immersion chiller takes 6.3 hours? If that's the case they would be making insulation out of the stuff. Will it be slower than copper? yes. Does an extra 2 minutes cooling time ought weigh the fact that it is stainless and wont grow toxic green stuff and its got way more bling bling make it better than copper? Probably for most people yea.

copper chiller that are used frequently are constantly cleaned by the wort.
I used a copper immersion chiller for a year about once or twice a month and it never tarnished.... any slight discoloration was removed quickly once set in boiling wort to sterilize...
I agree that stainless chillers are no where near 20x or even twice as ineffective as copper.
But if you have green oxidation on your chiller than you have likely cleaned or stored it improperly for a long time...

A lot of older commercial brewery tanks are made of copper....
Now that I have my duda plate chiller I will never go back... its like going from a bicycle to a motorcycle

 

[Spellman]

I don't want to get too far off topic, but plate chillers use stainless plates to exchange heat, works for them.

I ordered one of these and got it a couple days ago. The wort pipes are .60" OD, not sure if that is within range of 5/8 compression fittings or not. I think I am going to try and silver solder some male 1/2" npt fittings on the ends. Some of the other SS ones I have seen on the net had listed that they were not convoluted. This one said it was, but lets be honest, there was not much information about this chiller on the add. I shined a flashlight down the wort pipe and could see up until the bend, but did not see any of the convoluted section. I don't have any experience with the copper ones, does anyone know if they can see the convoluted parts or if it happens later in the pipe after the bend? If it is indeed not convoluted I'm going to guess this is not going to work very well with such a short run and wide piping. I haven't had time to test this out yet and may not be able to until next week or so. My fingers are crossed this is the chiller I've been waiting for.

Also thought I should mention the odd brass fittings on the water in/out. One is 3/4 and the other is 1/2. Kind of odd to have different sizes, would have made my life easier if they were both 1/2 as I have converted garden hoses to 1/2 camlock, but no biggie.

 

[Spellman]

Ended up having a little extra time today and just ran a water test... not really impressed. My tap water just read 40*, should make for a pretty easy chill you would think. First I tried running boiling water through with the pump. Coming out was 130*+, slowing it down to just a trickle I could get it down to 70. Just using gravity wide open it was about 90, and closing the valve halfway brought it down to the 70's. Not very impressive given the ground water temp. I'm now convinced this is indeed not convoluted inside as advertised. My homemade garden hose cfc beats the pants off this, and I'm not really that happy with it either. It works well in the winter, but the summer months my water gets to about 65 and it has trouble with that. I'm also getting tired of the burnt rubber smell that fills my brewery from the hose while recirculating. I would really like the option of saving the waste water to the hlt for another batch, but prefer my beer without that first wort tire addition.

I'm sure someone will chime in and tell me I need to get a big plate chiller like a therminator or comparable, but I don't really want the hassle of keeping them clean (I've got more important things to do than flush, back-flush, bake in oven, flush, back-flush, repeat when you keep finding crud coming out).

Anyone have experience with the copper ones that can attest to their experiences? Anyone else try their SS ones yet and have different results? I'm thinking I'm going to be calling Midwest tomorrow.

 

[augiedoggy]

If you do a good job of filtering the solids out of your wort BEFORE pumping it through the plate chiller theres not much cleaning needed.... plus you have the benefit of less trub in your fermenter and clearer beer .

 

[Spellman]

I already have a 300 micron stainless basket from Arbor Fabricating that I use and that's good to hear. Maybe I will go that direction after all. I'm ok with flushing them with warm water but just can't stand the idea of adding on an hour to my brew day just to clean the chiller.

 

[rgauthier20420]

I already have a 300 micron stainless basket from Arbor Fabricating that I use and that's good to hear. Maybe I will go that direction after all. I'm ok with flushing them with warm water but just can't stand the idea of adding on an hour to my brew day just to clean the chiller.

I will add to the plate chiller as a better method. I've got the B3-23A 20 from Duda and it's a beast and at only $104 + shipping it's awesome. I know it's winter, but I can chill a 5.5 gallon batch in about 4 minutes using my March 809 and this thing. Whatever chiller you decide, remember bigger plates are more important for chilling times than more plates.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I can understand the allure of stainless steel, but it really makes a lousy heat exchanger. I suppose as long as your chill water is cold enough it will get your wort down to temp, but it's going to take a lot more water. Maybe copper is twice the price, but it's definitely 20x more conductive than stainless steel. Just sayin'...

I just finished a write up on chillers here for a more in-depth discussion.

The conductivity of the metal, in this application, is pretty close to negligible. The overall heat exchange coefficient is the inverse of the sum of the inverses, sort of like adding resistors in parallel. Or...

U = 1/(1/h1 + 1/h2 + 1/k), where:

h1 = convective coefficient of one of the fluids
h2 = convective coefficient of the other fluids
k = conductive coefficient of the metal.

As thin as the metal is compared to the diameter of the tubing, it can be neglected without introducing much error. This is standard in the design / analysis of heat exchangers. Standard enough that it is officially referred to as the thin-wall assumption.

Here's another interesting fact. The flow through both tubes (unless you are flowing REALLY slowly) is turbulent. I.e., the 'turbulence enhancing' properties of convoluted chillers probably isn't impactful. It does give you a bump in surface area though, which is good. If can also slow down max flow rates, due to more surface area / skin effect, which is bad. If you are using a march pump, probably not a huge issue.

I've been thinking of writing up an article for HBT about heat exchanger designs (using actual science and math) and the dynamics of HERMS systems. Think there would be interest in that?

 

[ImNoExpert]

I'm sure there would be. A lot of people like to know more and about every tiny detail about the process.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I'll start thinking about what to write up. I'd guess the thermal design would be its own article, while the dynamics of the HERMS would be separate.

My hope is to show how to come up with estimates of thermal mass, losses, and heat xchange coefficients, and then show how to use those to design the HERMS system. You can actually calculate what the steady-state temp difference between HLT and MLT is, ramp times, chilling times, etc, with a little engineering. It would, of course, be more accurate to build and experiment. That isn't always possible / feasible though.

 

[augiedoggy]

I already have a 300 micron stainless basket from Arbor Fabricating that I use and that's good to hear. Maybe I will go that direction after all. I'm ok with flushing them with warm water but just can't stand the idea of adding on an hour to my brew day just to clean the chiller.

I use the same basket...but I found it actually works better if I use a muslin bag and put that in the basket...otherwise the screen plugs quickly and the hops dont break down into the beer as well (less noticable hop flavor).

 

[augiedoggy]

I will add to the plate chiller as a better method. I've got the B3-23A 20 from Duda and it's a beast and at only $104 + shipping it's awesome. I know it's winter, but I can chill a 5.5 gallon batch in about 4 minutes using my March 809 and this thing. Whatever chiller you decide, remember bigger plates are more important for chilling times than more plates.

I have the same chiller and use a little 12v pump turned down a bit to cool mine to 60degree last night in under 5 minutes (5.5gallon batch) I agree longer plates are bteer than more shorter ones..actually twice as easy to keep clean too as there is less turns and nook for things to possibly accumulate..

 

[rgauthier20420]

I have the same chiller and use a little 12v pump turned down a bit to cool mine to 60degree last night in under 5 minutes (5.5gallon batch) I agree longer plates are bteer than more shorter ones..actually twice as easy to keep clean too as there is less turns and nook for things to possibly accumulate..

I've got the same pump and used it last batch for chilling. The time was a bit slower simply because it pumps slower, but still worked perfectly.

 

[augiedoggy]

I've got the same pump and used it last batch for chilling. The time was a bit slower simply because it pumps slower, but still worked perfectly.

which one? the tan or the topsflo?
the hose I use is a mini canvas style one the kinks instead of bending so my cold water flow is very restricted... with that being said I dial my topslfo down to about 1/2 speed and I still can cool all 5 gallons in less than 5 minutes....

 

[rgauthier20420]

which one? the tan or the topsflo?
the hose I use is a mini canvas style one the kinks instead of bending so my cold water flow is very restricted... with that being said I dial my topslfo down to about 1/2 speed and I still can cool all 5 gallons in less than 5 minutes....

I have the tan one. I run it full blast while I'm circulating with my RIMS and when I'm chilling. I have some extra elbows on my RIMS arm to slow the speed down when it goes back into the MLT. Works like a champ.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

Anyone have experience with the copper ones that can attest to their experiences? Anyone else try their SS ones yet and have different results? I'm thinking I'm going to be calling Midwest tomorrow.

We have done extensive testing on several types and brands of wort chillers, including the copper convoluted CFCs. The best way to utilize this convoluted type of chiller is with recirculation.

This is true for two reasons:

1) There is not enough overall tubing length in a convoluted wort chiller for adequate heat transfer to take place for chilling your wort in a single pass (without using over 60 gallons of water and taking half an hour to chill 5 gallons)

2) The inner tubing diameter of a convoluted design itself is too large for a slow flow of chilling water to exchange heat with the wort in an efficient manner in a single pass

That being said, to ensure that you get the best possible results from your convoluted CFC, make sure that all of your fittings and valves are 1/2" I.D. (hose barbs need to be 5/8" O.D.) or larger. Also, you need a March 815 or Chugger pump for best results, because of the head pressure they can provide. Below is a table of chillers that compares their features, chilling times, and costs. http://jadedbrewing.tumblr.com/image/75818814081

 

[CulturalNonsense]

We have done extensive testing on several types and brands of wort chillers, including the copper convoluted CFCs. The best way to utilize this convoluted type of chiller is with recirculation.

This is true for two reasons:

1) There is not enough overall tubing length in a convoluted wort chiller for adequate heat transfer to take place for chilling your wort in a single pass (without using over 60 gallons of water and taking half an hour to chill 5 gallons)

2) The inner tubing diameter of a convoluted design itself is too large for a slow flow of chilling water to exchange heat with the wort in an efficient manner in a single pass

That being said, to ensure that you get the best possible results from your convoluted CFC, make sure that all of your fittings and valves are 1/2" I.D. (hose barbs need to be 5/8" O.D.) or larger. Also, you need a March 815 or Chugger pump for best results, because of the head pressure they can provide. Below is a table of chillers that compares their features, chilling times, and costs. http://jadedbrewing.tumblr.com/image/75818814081

Would you mind sharing your methods for chilling 5 gallons in 3 min with an immersion chiller? I go from 200+* > 70* with IC but it takes me about 45min to 1hr depending on the season. I am not using a model you have listed, but 3-4 min with an IC seems incredible. I am also noticing you didn't say you were whirpooling/pumping the wort at the same time with IC, like you were with plate/cfc. This isn't a doubt, i just want to know so I can work on my workflow to obtain much better results. thanx

 

[poptarts]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/50-5-8-whirlpool-immersion-chiller-462405/index2.html#post5977504
This is my whirlpool chiller and using cold water in the winter it will drop temp to 60s in 6 minutes on 6 gallons. So Im sure their hydra will do the same if you have a whirlpool attachment, they sell one too. key is to keep everything moving and more surface area the better. They also take the extra step and make several short runs of copper to keep the flow rate of cold water really fast threw the entire chiller.

 

[JaDeDBrewing]

Would you mind sharing your methods for chilling 5 gallons in 3 min with an immersion chiller? I go from 200+* > 70* with IC but it takes me about 45min to 1hr depending on the season. I am not using a model you have listed, but 3-4 min with an IC seems incredible. I am also noticing you didn't say you were whirpooling/pumping the wort at the same time with IC, like you were with plate/cfc. This isn't a doubt, i just want to know so I can work on my workflow to obtain much better results. thanx

Sure! Here are the keys:

1) Stirring/agitating the wort. This keeps the wort from temperature stratification and will maximize the cooling capacity of the chiller by maintaining the highest temperature differential.

2) Turning the chilling water all the way on. This will make the entire length of the chiller as cold as possible and transfer the most heat to the chilling water.
Use a garden hose spigot. Kitchen sinks are limited to a maximum of 2.2 GPM by the EPA and can’t supply enough water to fully utilize the chilling capacity of any standard chiller. A utility sink is better, but it still can’t supply enough water for most chillers.

3) Use short connection hoses. Every foot of tubing/hose will add friction that the water pressure has to overcome. Any unnecessary hose length will only serve to lower the flow of the chilling water and not add any additional chilling power or efficiency.

The potential ability of a chiller to remove heat from wort is the exact same for every chiller that is of similar construction (all 3/8” 25’ chillers are potentially capable of the same chilling speed). Therefore any variation in chilling speed is due to differences in using the chiller and chilling water temperature (Although, if there is a kink or blockage it could cause chilling times to increase). If you are still not getting the desired results after using the above steps, send us an email and we can have you check a few things that might be limiting your chilling speed.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I'll start thinking about what to write up. I'd guess the thermal design would be its own article, while the dynamics of the HERMS would be separate.

My hope is to show how to come up with estimates of thermal mass, losses, and heat xchange coefficients, and then show how to use those to design the HERMS system. You can actually calculate what the steady-state temp difference between HLT and MLT is, ramp times, chilling times, etc, with a little engineering. It would, of course, be more accurate to build and experiment. That isn't always possible / feasible though.

I am a little late to this party, but YES! I would love to read about that. I wish I would have been a 3rd generation ME, but nope, I thought forestry was a good idea.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

I'll start putting something together. I'm in the process of designing a counterflow exchanger to be used for both HERMS and chilling, and so I did the math to figure out what length of chiller I need to get a certain overall heat transfer coefficient that would work (spoiler alert, about 12' will do the trick). CFC's are a heck of a lot easier to calculate than immersed coils, but I'll see if there are some approximations that can be made.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Sweet! You must be quite bored then, eh? Any offers from your open house the other day?

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Not yet, have some more showings tomorrow though. We aren't in a huge hurry, so it is priced pretty optimistically


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Accepted an offer, now its time to get back to brewing.

Keeping that place clean was killing me, so fingers crossed the closing goes through without a hitch

 

[MikeInMKE]

My mom's house is on the market, I'm the one taking care of it, and I can see from the salty footprints (on hardwood floors!) that no one is wiping their feet on the rugs I've placed near the doors. You can see the footprints go right around the rugs.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

yeah, people suck. I've come back to find every door unlocked, and I'd been gone all day so as to not interfere with showings. Granted, its in a nice neighborhood but I still don't want it unlocked all day. I should have counted the beers / measured the kegs. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody helped themselves.

Glad it is all done

 

[poptarts]

 

[UofMontanaAlum]

I had a plate chiller and recently sold it. I was tired of worrying about plugging it up. I was surprised to see this chiller on sale at Midwest the day I sold the plate chiller so I immediately pulled the trigger and ordered it. Before it delivered I came across this thread and read the discouraging "reviews" of stainless counterflow chillers, I was concerned about my purchase. I brewed Sunday with the new chiller and, in my opinion, it works fantastic. It was able to cool from boil to 70 degrees in 5 minutes. That's not bad in my book. Certainly not as fast as the plate chiller but I also don't have to worry about plugging it up. I'm happy.

 

[Spellman]

I'm glad you were able to get yours to work, could you tell us any details on how you got it to work so well? Did you recirculate back into the kettle? What was your batch size? I want to be able to do a one pass into the fermenter, but my test was showing that not to be an option.

 

[Eugenio]

Just got mine and it's built like a tank, will def replace my home made one. Now to get a pump so i can recirculate.

Also, with my order came "brew like a monk". Good purchase!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Spellman]

I had a plate chiller and recently sold it. I was tired of worrying about plugging it up. I was surprised to see this chiller on sale at Midwest the day I sold the plate chiller so I immediately pulled the trigger and ordered it. Before it delivered I came across this thread and read the discouraging "reviews" of stainless counterflow chillers, I was concerned about my purchase. I brewed Sunday with the new chiller and, in my opinion, it works fantastic. It was able to cool from boil to 70 degrees in 5 minutes. That's not bad in my book. Certainly not as fast as the plate chiller but I also don't have to worry about plugging it up. I'm happy.

You didn't happen to have a shirron that was on craigslist did you? And if so, how well did it work?

 

[fearwig]

Ended up having a little extra time today and just ran a water test... not really impressed. My tap water just read 40*, should make for a pretty easy chill you would think. First I tried running boiling water through with the pump. Coming out was 130*+, slowing it down to just a trickle I could get it down to 70. Just using gravity wide open it was about 90, and closing the valve halfway brought it down to the 70's. Not very impressive given the ground water temp. I'm now convinced this is indeed not convoluted inside as advertised. My homemade garden hose cfc beats the pants off this, and I'm not really that happy with it either. It works well in the winter, but the summer months my water gets to about 65 and it has trouble with that. I'm also getting tired of the burnt rubber smell that fills my brewery from the hose while recirculating. I would really like the option of saving the waste water to the hlt for another batch, but prefer my beer without that first wort tire addition.

I'm sure someone will chime in and tell me I need to get a big plate chiller like a therminator or comparable, but I don't really want the hassle of keeping them clean (I've got more important things to do than flush, back-flush, bake in oven, flush, back-flush, repeat when you keep finding crud coming out).

Anyone have experience with the copper ones that can attest to their experiences? Anyone else try their SS ones yet and have different results? I'm thinking I'm going to be calling Midwest tomorrow.

Wow dude, that is not food safe, especially at heat, unless it's one of the expensive ones advertised as such. Lead and everything else awful goes into garden hoses.

 

[poptarts]

Wow dude, that is not food safe, especially at heat, unless it's one of the expensive ones advertised as such. Lead and everything else awful goes into garden hoses.

im sure its a copper tube inside a garden hose, the wort never touches anything but copper. Look up DIY counterflow chillers to get a picture.

 

[fearwig]

My mistake, I read "rubber smell" and figured he'd gone DIY insane.

 

[Spellman]

The smell was from the copper pipe inside having boiling wort recirculating through it heating up the hose around it. No part of the wort touches the hose, but on the flip side no part of the cooling water may be used for brewing. It is a high temp garden hose, but they are only rated for 150* I think. Either way no it is not nsf at any temp. My debate is do I see about returning the ss cfc, maybe exchange for a plate, or keep what I have with the diy garden hose one. I'm guessing I'll have to eat some shipping either way. I am stuck right where I never wanted to be with having a few things that kind of work, but nothing that is an end all solution. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. All I wanted was a low maintenance highly efficient chiller that doesn't break the bank (don't we all!). I've already made some considerable upgrades to my system and I'm getting low in my brew budget. I had hoped this ss chiller would be the deal I had been waiting for.

 

[augiedoggy]

The smell was from the copper pipe inside having boiling wort recirculating through it heating up the hose around it. No part of the wort touches the hose, but on the flip side no part of the cooling water may be used for brewing. It is a high temp garden hose, but they are only rated for 150* I think. Either way no it is not nsf at any temp. My debate is do I see about returning the ss cfc, maybe exchange for a plate, or keep what I have with the diy garden hose one. I'm guessing I'll have to eat some shipping either way. I am stuck right where I never wanted to be with having a few things that kind of work, but nothing that is an end all solution. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. All I wanted was a low maintenance highly efficient chiller that doesn't break the bank (don't we all!). I've already made some considerable upgrades to my system and I'm getting low in my brew budget. I had hoped this ss chiller would be the deal I had been waiting for.

You can make this a simple choice if you look at it logically,
Everybodys system is different... is your wort clear and trub free? if so I would recommend a plate chiller as they simply work better in this case (longer ones work better than shorter ones with more plates ) If you dont filter your wort well somhow before it enters the chiller than I would stick with the CFC as they work better than MOST IC setups and are much easier to keep clear of trub than plate chillers... There are exceptions to every rule and then there's pride and exaggeration to add to that which really has a tendency to cloud up the facts.

my B23-20 duda plate chiller was only like $110 and worth every penny... twice as much cooling capability as the 10 plate $100 shirron at my LHBS.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

Ended up having a little extra time today and just ran a water test... not really impressed. My tap water just read 40*, should make for a pretty easy chill you would think. First I tried running boiling water through with the pump. Coming out was 130*+, slowing it down to just a trickle I could get it down to 70. Just using gravity wide open it was about 90, and closing the valve halfway brought it down to the 70's. Not very impressive given the ground water temp. I'm now convinced this is indeed not convoluted inside as advertised. My homemade garden hose cfc beats the pants off this, and I'm not really that happy with it either. It works well in the winter, but the summer months my water gets to about 65 and it has trouble with that. I'm also getting tired of the burnt rubber smell that fills my brewery from the hose while recirculating. I would really like the option of saving the waste water to the hlt for another batch, but prefer my beer without that first wort tire addition.

I'm sure someone will chime in and tell me I need to get a big plate chiller like a therminator or comparable, but I don't really want the hassle of keeping them clean (I've got more important things to do than flush, back-flush, bake in oven, flush, back-flush, repeat when you keep finding crud coming out).

Anyone have experience with the copper ones that can attest to their experiences? Anyone else try their SS ones yet and have different results? I'm thinking I'm going to be calling Midwest tomorrow.

This is a week old, but I wanted to reiterate what JaDeD said. A short, fat tube CFC is best utilized by recirculating it through (and I believe that the convoluted is 5/8" tubing). Sounds like you have a pump, so that should be an option for you. Just a single run through is either moving too fast, or at just a trickle isn't touching most of the side walls. Pumping through and recirculating at full bore should get you chilled in short order.

A DIY CFC probably has 3/8 tubing on the inside, and so you are able to run slower while still getting good contact. The smaller tubing means you can't flow as fast as with a larger tube, which makes the DIY not as well suited for recirculating.

Also, not to imply that you made this mistake, but running the xchanger in parallel vs counterflow makes a huge difference.

Also, recirculating makes for a nice compact pile of trub, hop crud, and cold break in the kettle. Plus, you get to use whirlpool hops, which is a neat handle to have.