Converting All Grain to Extract

[mrgrimm101]

Hello,

Fairly new brewer here. I was wondering about converting all grain recipes to extract.

I know that there are simple conversion charts for most all grain malts to LME or DME, and I know that some malts cannot be converted to extract, as they cannot be steeped. I was wondering if there are acceptable substitutions for these malts.

Also, would I need to alter my hop schedule in any way, be it amount or time, considering the schedule was based off of an all grain brew?


Currently I am trying to find an extract recipe for Dark Horse's Crooked Tree IPA and have been quite unsuccessful. I found an all grain version and did the conversion to LME or DME, but I was wondering if the other grains need to be altered or substituted in any way. Do I need to change the hop schedule? Here is the basic recipe:


8.625 lbs LME or 6.9 lbs of DME (converted from 11.5 lbs Pale Malt (2row))
1 Lbs Crystal 10L
1 Lbs Munich Malt

1oz Chinook 45 Min
1oz Cascade 5 Min
1oz Centennial Dry Hop 7 days

Nottingham Yeast


Thanks for any tips or advice.

 

[Beernik]

Steep the grains at 150F for 45 minutes. The Munich will self-convert if you treat it like a mash. The crystal only needs a steeping.

Use 1.25 - 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Add more water if that's not enough for the grain to float freely.

 

[mrgrimm101]

The Munich will self-convert if you treat it like a mash.

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does this mean? I assume "treat it like a mash" is different than simply steeping it.

Use 1.25 - 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Add more water if that's not enough for the grain to float freely.

Again, excuse my lack of knowledge, but is this different than my current method? Currently I am doing 5 gallon batches so I use 3 gallons of water in my 5 gallon kettle and tie off my steeping grains in a muslin bag so it hangs above the bottom of the kettle but still all under the water.

 

[Beernik]

No problem. We all start somewhere. I did extracts & steep for a few years before partial mashing. I did that for a few more years before going to all grain.

You can think of a mash as a special kind of steeping. Certain enzymes in the malt will convert starches and proteins in the malt to sugars at specific temperatures. Between 140F and 160F you can convert starches to sugars.

Some malts have enough enzymes to convert their starches, some do not. For instance, Light Munich does but Dark Munich does not. Too many of the enzymes are killed in Dark Munich malt during the roasting of the grain.

Mashing is more efficient at specific ratios of water volume to grain weight. 1.25 quarts water to 1lb grain is fairly common.


Oh, and don't forget to have your grains milled.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Im trying to do all extract. I dont have any mashing equipment so all the crystal malt would be steeped. But if i get light munich i can steep that as well?

And i buy the grains from my LHBS so i assume its milled already...

 

[crazyirishman34]

You really can't just steep Munich malt it needs time to convert the starches to sugars. If you put it in a grain bag with the crystal malt and "steep" it in 150F water for 40 minutes. That will convert the starches to sugars. Really if you use a gallon of water to do your "steep" then top up to 3 gallons for your boil you will be fine.

 

[Beernik]

Im trying to do all extract. I dont have any mashing equipment so all the crystal malt would be steeped. But if i get light munich i can steep that as well?

And i buy the grains from my LHBS so i assume its milled already...

Like crazyirishman34 said, you can put the Munich and the Crystal malts in the same bag and steep them together at 150F for 40 minutes. That would be a brew-in-a-bag (BIAB) partial mash (PM). That's how I partial mashed.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Do i need to adjust the quantities at all from the original all grain recipe?

 

[crazyirishman34]

Nope I wouldn't change the amounts. I have never had that beer so I have to ask is it on the dry side or malty? On thing you might do is only replace half of the pale malt with DME. You would just "steep" the whole gist bill in a couple bags in the base 3 gallons at 150f. Then add the DME. If you really want you can do a full boil.

 

[gr8shandini]

I think you guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be for the OP and potentially confusing by saying "steep" (even in quotes) when you mean mash.

Just to be clear, Munich malt cannot be steeped; it must be mashed. Both involve soaking the grains in hot water, but for a mash, you need to be precise about holding a temperature range for at least 30 minutes. You also need to keep your water to grain ratio (mash thickness) between 1 and 2 quarts per pound.

Partial mashing is a valid technique, but it's an unnecessary complication for this recipe. The main reason to do a partial mash is to include adjuncts like corn or flaked barley that you otherwise couldn't use in an extract batch. In this case, he could get what he's looking for using *ME and crystal malts. CaraMunich or crystal 40 would give you what you're looking for, but it's not a one for one. I'd try replacing the Munich with 1/2 a pound of C40 and converting the other 1/2 lb to *ME.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Definitely more sweet malty than dry.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Thanks so much for clarifying.

If i converted the 1/2 lb of munich to 1 lb crystal 40 would i still want to include the 1 lb crystal 10L?

 

[crazyirishman34]

I was just putting it in terms that he would understand and not be intimidated by. I have been an all-grain brewer since 1992 and it really isn't that hard or equipment intensive. I have to also say that using adjuncts isn't the only reason to start doing partial mashes or even BIAB all grain. You have more control over color, body, and fermentablity then if you are using extract as your base. This is true even if you are only partial mashing.

On to the recipe. If you use a good quality pale malt extract it has a certain portion of crystal malt in it from the factory. You might try using no or very little crystal malt in a batch. I am sure that you will still have plenty of sweetness.

Also you should really be worried more about how you ferment the wort into beer. You can have the best wort in the world but if you don't ferment it properly you will not have great beer. The things that you need to think about when you are fermenting your wort is tempeture control, pitching enough yeast and getting enough oxygen into the wort.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Were I to do an extract version, how does this look?

9 lbs pale LME (converted from 11.5 lbs Pale Malt 2row and 0.5 lbs Munich Malt)
1/2 lbs Crystal 40L (or 10L?)
*In 3 gallon water, steep grains at 150F for 40 minutes
Take off heat and stir in LME. Bring back to boil.
After hot break start hop additions:
1oz Chinook 45 Min
1oz Cascade 5 Min
1oz Centennial Dry Hop


Dang thats a lot of LME lol

 

[TexanRudeboy]

Why not just use some Munich LME? A lot of places carry it.

 

[Beernik]

Mashing and steeping are only vastly different if you are intimidated by all grain or look down your nose at extract. Sure one is just rinsing grain and the other is converting starches to sugars and then rinsing the grain. But for the most part, they both are just putting grain in water and killing time.

It's not a great mystical secret.

I switched to partial mashing mainly because it improved the body of my beers.

Mrgrimm101, try the partial mash. Don't let yourself get psyched out, it's really not that complicated.

 

[rhys333]

Mashing and steeping are only vastly different if you are intimidated by all grain or look down your nose at extract. Sure one is just rinsing grain and the other is converting starches to sugars and then rinsing the grain. But for the most part, they both are just putting grain in water and killing time.

It's not a great mystical secret.

I switched to partial mashing mainly because it improved the body of my beers.

Mrgrimm101, try the partial mash. Don't let yourself get psyched out, it's really not that complicated.

+1 on that. I went straight to partial mash and found it relatively easy once I wrapped my head around the brewing process. Its not really any trickier than extract, tastes fresher, and its cheaper. There are some really good tutorials on this site.

 

[NTexBrewer]

This is what I would do.

9lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light
1lb Liquid Malt Extract - Munich
1lb Crystal 10L

1.75 oz Chinock 11.6% Alpha Acid
1 oz Cascade 7.1% Alpha Acid
1 oz Centennial

Fill brew pot with 2 gallons of water heat to 155. Place Crystal malt in bag and place in water and cover pot and let steep for 30 minutes. Heat 1 gallon of water to 170. Rinse the Crystal Malt with the 170 degree water. Using a colander is the easiest way.

You now have 3 gallons in your brew pot. Bring to a boil. Turn off heat and add all Liquid Malt Extract. Return to a boil and start timer at 60 minutes.

Add 1.75 oz of Chinook Hops at 45 Minutes
Add 1 oz of Cascade Hops at 5 Minutes

Cool to 70 degrees. Add to fermenter and top off to 5 gallons.

Pitch 2 packs of Nottingham Yeast. Maintain fermentation temperature between 65 and 70 degrees.

When Hydrometer Testing show fermentation is complete rack beer into a secondary vessel.

Using a hop sock add 1 oz Centennial Hops for 7 days.
Rack to bottling bucket. Prime with 1oz priming sugar per gallon of beer.

OG 1.072
FG 1.017
ABV 7.32%
IBU 40.35
SRM 7.63

I plugged the All grain recipe into Brewer's Friend Recipe software. Then with that recipe, I created an extract with grains recipe that matched the OG and IBU. If you only boil 3 gallons of water you get less hop utilization with your bittering hops. That is why my recipe is showing to use more for bittering. The 5 minute addition should stay the same because you are really just getting aroma. Same for the dry hopping.

Hope this helps.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I think ill try a version of NTexBrewers advice and then down the line try the partial mash version

 

[mrgrimm101]

1.75 oz Chinock 11.6% Alpha Acid
1 oz Cascade 7.1% Alpha Acid
1 oz Centennial


OG 1.072
FG 1.017
ABV 7.32%
IBU 40.35
SRM 7.63

That IBU seems lower than I'd like it. Crooked Tree is about 50 IBU I believe. I wonder if increasing the bitter hops to from 1.75oz to 2 oz would help increase that slightly

 

[NTexBrewer]

That IBU seems lower than I'd like it. Crooked Tree is about 50 IBU I believe. I wonder if increasing the bitter hops to from 1.75oz to 2 oz would help increase that slightly

Yes. I think it will increase it to around 45.

Something I thought about last night is that special liquid malt like Munich is usually sold in 3.3lb containers. I'm not sure how easy it is to save unused malt extract. Possible options is to use 3.3 lbs of Munich and reduce the amount of Light LME. This would probably make a slightly maltier beer. Or do as others have suggested and mash 1 lb of Munich Malt with the 1 lb of Crystal.
45 minutes at 150 should be enough time. Still use 2 gallons of water and rinse with 1 gallon of 170 degree water.

 

[mrgrimm101]

I've reused pale LME that had sit about a month or so, it seemed to keep fine. Chances are I'd use the leftover Munich LME again soon enough.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I will make this beer sometime this summer and will be sure to post methods and results for all those who are interested.

Thanks again

 

[gr8shandini]

I was just putting it in terms that he would understand and not be intimidated by. I have been an all-grain brewer since 1992 and it really isn't that hard or equipment intensive. I have to also say that using adjuncts isn't the only reason to start doing partial mashes or even BIAB all grain. You have more control over color, body, and fermentablity then if you are using extract as your base. This is true even if you are only partial mashing.

On to the recipe. If you use a good quality pale malt extract it has a certain portion of crystal malt in it from the factory. You might try using no or very little crystal malt in a batch. I am sure that you will still have plenty of sweetness.

Also you should really be worried more about how you ferment the wort into beer. You can have the best wort in the world but if you don't ferment it properly you will not have great beer. The things that you need to think about when you are fermenting your wort is tempeture control, pitching enough yeast and getting enough oxygen into the wort.

Not disagreeing with anything here. But the OP asked how to convert that recipe to extract and instead of that, he got a suggestion to do a mini-mash. Yes, it's not that much more difficult, but it's not necessary for this beer and seems to be more than he's looking to tackle at the moment.

I'm an all-grain brewer myself, so I know it's not nearly as intimidating as a lot of new folks think. However, whatever extra control you have over the wort goes out the window if you don't start with a good idea of what's going on in the mash. If the OP wants to get into all-grain, I suggest looking over the Bobby M's excellent introduction

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/all-grain-primer-article-videos-228699/

and also the section on all-grain in How to Brew.

And a big +1 on keeping your fermentation under control. The difference between a fermentation at 65 degrees and one at 75 can be the difference between an award winning beer and a barely drinkable one.

 

[mrgrimm101]

Not disagreeing with anything here. But the OP asked how to convert that recipe to extract and instead of that, he got a suggestion to do a mini-mash. Yes, it's not that much more difficult, but it's not necessary for this beer and seems to be more than he's looking to tackle at the moment.

Thank you I could not have said it better myself. I've only been brewing for a few months and only have a few batches under my belt, so I was looking for a simple extract conversion. I feel that I have found that, thanks to several suggestions from people on this post. And when I am ready to try a partial mash version, I have also found that thanks to this post.

I really have no temperature control right now. The buckets sit in my guest bedroom and I have a thermometer in the room so I try to make sure it's between 65-70ish. The room seems to stay pretty consistently around 68-70.

 

[gr8shandini]

Keep in mind, though, that fermentation is exothermic. During the first couple of days, the temperature of the beer can be 5 to 10 degrees higher than the ambient air temperature. You may want to find a bucket large enough to hold your fermenter and a decent amount of water. Then you can use ice or frozen water bottles to cool it down as needed. Also, the larger thermal mass minimizes any temperature swings which yeast tend not to like.

After the first 3-4 days of vigorous fermentation, you can relax a little as a slight temperature rise (within reason) helps keep the yeast active and cleaning up their byproducts.

 

[mrgrimm101]

I have my buckets in a large tote tub that is big enough to fit 2 buckets side by side. I can easily use that tub to put ice in if needed.

I live in Michigan so it hasnt gotten too hot yet outside, and my house is kept around 65-70 anyway.

I need to get a fermometer as well. I had one but it came off when I washed my bucket the first time