Is 2-row all that has the enzymes for conversion or are there other grains that help? I like to give a 50/50 ratio for 2-row vs oats, rye, wheat berries, etc. but does anything else contribute to the conversion ability?
Conversion of Starches
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freisste
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Yes, there are others. What is nice about 2row is that it has more than 100% of the diastatic power that it needs, so it can lend enzymes to other grains that contain less. I believe wheat can self convert, but isn't good to lend any extra. Marris otter, 6row, pilsner and others also have their own enzymes. I'm sure someone can link to a chart of malt vs diastatic power.
As far as I'm aware, wheat has EXTREMELY high diastatic power (ability to convert not only itself but other grains as well). How much depends on the malt, but it's up there with 6 row and pilsner malt in being among the highest diastatic power available.
If I recall correctly it goes roughly like this, from highest ability to convert to lowest:
1. 6 row and wheat malt
2. Pilsner Malt
3. US 2 row malt and American styled base malts
4. Maris Otter and English styled base malts
5. Vienna, Munich, and other dark, more highly kilned base malts.
The first four are capable of self converting and converting other grains (within reason). The 5th can self convert, and can convert other grains too but may need some help in some cases.
Rye is also somewhere on that list, but I don't recall its diastatic level. I know it can self convert, but I don't know if it can convert anything else.
Kilning denatures the enzymes. That's why the conversion power seems to decrease with color (with the lightest Pils malt being highly diastatic, and Munich malt substantially less so). Once you're into the crystal and roasted malts, the diastatic enzymes are completely destroyed, so yes, they lose the ability to convert.
If it is MALTED it can convert. Both rye malt and wheat malt can self convert. But raw wheat or rye, or flaked wheat or rye, are not malted, and do not have any diastatic power as far as I'm aware..
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rodwha
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How about carapils/carafoam and such? These are very low lovibond, but I'm unsure of what process they have gone through.
I've read that 2-row has can convert just over an equal part of other grains, but I've just targeted a 50/50 ratio and wondered if anything else lends to the conversion.
I've been wanting to push the envelope on rye beer to find my threshold, but I also do partial mashes and rely on about 40% extract. I'm hoping I can try for over 30% rye. 20% just wasn't cutting it for me.
I've read that 2-row has can convert just over an equal part of other grains, but I've just targeted a 50/50 ratio and wondered if anything else lends to the conversion.
I've been wanting to push the envelope on rye beer to find my threshold, but I also do partial mashes and rely on about 40% extract. I'm hoping I can try for over 30% rye. 20% just wasn't cutting it for me.
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rodwha
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Is it a stretch to say that if it has a lovibond of under 80 it may lend to some form of conversion?
I often use crystal malts or others, which play into my overall % and so it makes it difficult relying on extracts too.
I often use crystal malts or others, which play into my overall % and so it makes it difficult relying on extracts too.
I don't know exactly what goes into Carapils/Carafoam, but as far as I know, despite the low color it has no diastatic power.
If you're worried about it, you can switch the 2 row out for 6 row. That's what 6 row is good for, providing diastatic power to adjunct-heavy grain bills to facilitate conversion. If you go half 2 row, half 6 row, you should be good to go. If your rye is rye malt, that's one less thing to worry about on top of that.
If you're worried about it, you can switch the 2 row out for 6 row. That's what 6 row is good for, providing diastatic power to adjunct-heavy grain bills to facilitate conversion. If you go half 2 row, half 6 row, you should be good to go. If your rye is rye malt, that's one less thing to worry about on top of that.
It's more complicated than color, but I'd be shocked to see anything above 10L having any diastatic power. Correlation, not causation. Only "base" malts have ability to convert.
Here's Cargill's figures (measured in degrees Lintner, the measurement of diastatic power): http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/diastatic.htm
And the difference between 2 row and 6 row is the kind of barley. 2 row usually has better flavor (most malts are 2 row) but 6 row has more enzymatic power, making it useful for high-adjunct grain bills (most light lagers use 6 row due to the high percentage of corn or rice, which have no enzymatic power at all)
Edit: Deleted the historical part, because it was wrong.
Edit: Deleted the historical part, because it was wrong.
I forget where I read it, perhaps it was in How to Brew.
2 and 6 row refers to the arrangement of the grain kernels on the stalk of barley.
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Yes, you do.
You really do need about "equal" amounts of two row to convert other grains, but if you use 6-row, you can do some quick and easy calculations to make sure you have enough DP to convert.
As was mentioned, the "rows" are simply the way the barley is. There are LOTS of two-row malted grains for sale- pilsner malt, maris otter, US pale malt, etc- those are all two-row.
Six row is less common, but is available. It has a higher DP, so it's useful in converting grain bills with lots of adjuncts like corn and rice, but the trade-off is that it has a definite "grainy" flavor
"cara" type malts are stewed before kilning, and have 0 diastastic power, and cannot convert without a base malt.
I can't think of any reason to use 6 row over 2 row outside of increased enzymatic power. You even get more sugar per weight out of 2 row. And even then, it seems that 6 row is more expensive. So unless you need to use 6 row to convert adjunct grains, I see no reason to use it. I use 6 row in my Cream Ale in addition to 2 row, but that's because I use a sizeable portion of flaked corn, which really needs the enzymatic help of the 6 row.
The number of rows refers to the physical construction of the plant. Not really relevant to anything brewing related other than the name. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/differences-2row-6row.html
The number of rows refers to the physical construction of the plant. Not really relevant to anything brewing related other than the name. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/differences-2row-6row.html
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rodwha
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I used too much honey malt in a blonde and had a rough gratingly taste. Is it something like that?
Does anyone use 6-row because it's what they're after or do they use portions of it due to its higher DP?
Does anyone use 6-row because it's what they're after or do they use portions of it due to its higher DP?
I don't know. I don't use honey malt, so I'm not sure what flavor you got (except sweet).
I use 6-row in some cream ales because it's higher in DP plus has this relatively "raw" grainy flavor that goes well in it.
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rodwha
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It didn't come across as all too sweet, but very grainy. It took months to mellow out. I used 1.5 lbs in a 4.5 gal batch.
I often used it to mix with low gravity wheat beers as it fermented out much deeper than the calculator said giving me ~6% instead of 5.2 as I figured.
I often used it to mix with low gravity wheat beers as it fermented out much deeper than the calculator said giving me ~6% instead of 5.2 as I figured.
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rodwha
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I must admit that it was Greek to me, but I noticed it stated 40 L was needed to convert the starches in a mash. Seeing how 2-row was ~120 it seems to my naive mind that it could convert three times the starches, and wouldn't need to be used in a near 50/50 fashion with unmalted rye or some such, though I know that isn't true as, at best, it seems to get through a 40/60 ratio of 2-row to unmalted grains.
I'm certainly attempting to grasp what all it is to mash, but must admit I get lost. Maybe I'll find all-grain brewers nearby in Austin when we move.
I'm certainly attempting to grasp what all it is to mash, but must admit I get lost. Maybe I'll find all-grain brewers nearby in Austin when we move.
It is Greek, but I will add that using the ratio and information that you mentioned, my primitive grasp on all this...
The 120 that 2 row has to offer (40 of which would be used to convert the 2 row itself) leaves roughly 80 Lintner left to convert other stuff.
So... 33% of the enzymes that 2 row has to offer is utilized on itself and the remaining 66% to convert other stuff.
40:60 ratio sound right now??? (again, this may be lack of sleep and rudimentary understanding of all this):cross:
patthebrewer
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What She said!!
I also use it in my pre-prohibition bushwick style pils, not only for it's diastatic prowess, but it's also the period correct malt, and completes the flavor profile I'm looking for
Smellyglove
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This is a noob question.
I thought that caramalts already were converted in the malting process, and that you just extract the sugars from it when you mash them?
I thought that caramalts already were converted in the malting process, and that you just extract the sugars from it when you mash them?
Yes. That is correct. That's why they can be steeped and do not have to be mashed. Although the extraction is better in a mash.
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