Controversy!!!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

daveooph131

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
34
Location
Dallas, TX
Ok so I went and made my final purchases today at a local shop...I'm going to brew my first batch this weekend.

When talking to the owner there were some things he said that contradicted what I’ve read in books or on this form. Can you help me clarify?
1) After cooling the wort he told me the “trub” will be on the bottom of the kettle and to siphon the wort into the primary until you just about hit the nasty pile up of cold break/trub/bad protein or whatever. (Thoughts / Opinions?)
2) The shop owner was against rehydrating the yeast….Apparently it is unnecessary and not that good for the yeast. (Thoughts / Opinions?)
3) He told me to purchase a kit. The kit was a Bavarian Hefenfeizen that has everything in a box. Hops/malt/adjunct/ect….Are kits like this good? Next time I think I want to purchase all the hops ect… separately.

Thanks – brew on
 

Shawn Hargreaves

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
344
Reaction score
7
Location
Seattle
1) It doesn't really matter. Some people like to keep the trub out of their fermenter. Me, I just pour the whole thing in. It'll settle out over the next couple of weeks and won't make it into the bottles, so I don't see much point worrying trying to avoid it earlier on (and siphoning hot wort is not my idea of fun, much easier just to pour it through a funnel :)

2) I've always heard that rehydrating dry yeast is a good idea, but that it will work even if you don't. This is just second hand, though: I mostly use liquid yeast these days, but did rehydrate every time I brewed with dry yeast.

3) It really depends on the kit. Assuming it's a good recipe, buying a kit that includes all the right ingredients already measured out for you is exactly the same as buying those same ingredients separately and measuring them yourself. Buying them separately gives you more flexibility if you want to tweak the recipe, but if you're just starting out, I would recommend you follow an existing recipe at least for your first couple of brews.
 

BigEd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
2,956
Reaction score
481
1) Unnecessary but it won't do any harm.

2) Modern dry yeast doesn't require rehydrating, just sprinkle it in.

3) Kits are fine as long as they are fresh. It's one less thing for a beginner to have to think about. Purchasing everything separately is great as long as you know what you are doing. My LHBS sells their own house kits rather than premade factory kits and I would suggest something like that if available.
 

McKBrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
8,186
Reaction score
43
Location
Hayden
1) Not a big deal
2) Some people say rehydrate, some don't. I personally just dump in dry yeast most of the time.
3) Nothing wrong with kits at all. 99.9% of kits are tried and true recipes developed by brewers.
 

Pharmguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
253
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
Welcome. I only have 5 batches under my belt but here is my take.
1) Some people poor it all in the primary, some siphon as you were told and some (like me) use a strainer to remove the coagulated protein/gunk. Dont know that it really matters because it will all settle to the bottom in the primary and will be left behind when you rack later on. I strain it because it will be less to deal with when I bottle.
2) have not rehydrated and fermentations have been great.
3) I think a kit is great for your first few batches just to get the process down.
Have fun!
 

GuitarBob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
145
Reaction score
1
Ok well I'm fairly new at homebrewing so take my advice for what it's worth.

1. I personally have never had trub at the bottom of my kettle so can't say whether you should siphon it off or not. He might be refering to hop residue in which case you should try to leave it behind, or you could just use a hop sock like I do and not have to worry about it.

2. You are better off rehydrating the yeast before pitching it. The yeast needs to rehydrate before it can start doing it's job, and because the yeast rehydrates through osmosis it can be difficult in a high sugar enviroment like wort. If you just sprinkle the yeast on top the wort some of them will be able to adapt but most will likely go dormant and settle to the bottom.

You can make beer without rehydrating your yeast but it will take longer because you'll have less living yeast to do the job.

3. Kits would be the easiest way to get started, and I would do a few kits before trying a recipe from the internet or a book, well atleast until I felt confident about my beer brewing skills. Whether or not the kit is any good depends on the kit. My local homebrew store has some really good kits, but I can't say whether or not that's the norm.

Well thats my advice anyways but I'm still pretty new so if anyone on here disagrees with what I wrote then I would take their advice instead.
 

HenryHill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
3,039
Reaction score
13
Location
Perry, MI
Ok so I went and made my final purchases today at a local shop...I'm going to brew my first batch this weekend.

When talking to the owner there were some things he said that contradicted what I’ve read in books or on this form. Can you help me clarify?
1) After cooling the wort he told me the “trub” will be on the bottom of the kettle and to siphon the wort into the primary until you just about hit the nasty pile up of cold break/trub/bad protein or whatever. (Thoughts / Opinions?)
2) The shop owner was against rehydrating the yeast….Apparently it is unnecessary and not that good for the yeast. (Thoughts / Opinions?)
3) He told me to purchase a kit. The kit was a Bavarian Hefenfeizen that has everything in a box. Hops/malt/adjunct/ect….Are kits like this good? Next time I think I want to purchase all the hops ect… separately.

Thanks – brew on
1) If you mean is boil kettle waste called trub, then no, that is the fermenter waste. Yeah, you want to avoid siphoning up the hops and proteins. Whilpooling is the term of swirling the boiled wort to put the junk in teh center of the pot and then you siphon from the side of the pot. Siphoning thru a mesh bag will prevent picking up the nasty, and clogging the siphon. Putting hops in a fine mesh bag in the boil is another technique. There is a cold break at post fermentation when you chill to let proteins sediment out.

2) The yeast instructions say it is not necessary to rehydrate, but I take boiled wort from the kettle after it has boiled a while, and let it cool in a shallow dish, into which I dump the dry yeast, for getting it started. Rehydrating is technically using water, so I just consider it kick starting the yeast with what it will soon be eating anyway, as a lower sugar appetizer. A 'very short term starter'.

3) Kits are great for people that are timid about buying their own bulk supplies, or don't want to spend the time shopping for every little thing, or don't want to screw up and brew something in the wrong proportions or with the wrong ingredients (read bad recipe) and have sub-par brew. If you are comfortable in your knowledge of brewing ingredients and how to choose and use them, then skip on further kits. The best economy of brewing is to buy your own bulk hops in pounds, and buy bulk grains in sacks. This mandates that you have all these things stored around your pad until you use them, however. Different methods for different people, but I never even considered kits, myself.
 

EvilTOJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
6,393
Reaction score
69
Location
Portland, OR
For 1) it's fine to leave it in the boiler. Some do, some don't. Me, I dump everything into the fermenter willy nilly and just rack off the top when I bottle.

2) You don't *have* to rehydrate your yeast, but it is recommended to do so to get the best yeast cell count. Just be sure to dump it into the wort within 15 minutes of hydration.

3) Some kits are good, some are mediocre. I really can't say, as I've never used any of them. For your first time they'll do just fine though.
 

taylornate

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
224
Reaction score
2
Location
Springfield, IL
2) Follow the instructions on your packet of yeast. Some say to rehydrate and some don't. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.

Also, the guy may have confused rehydrating with proofing or making a starter.
 

llazy_llama

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
92
Location
Rapid City, South Dakota
2) Follow the instructions on your packet of yeast. Some say to rehydrate and some don't. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.
No one mentioned it, because no one really does that. Those that rehydrate generally rehydrate any dry yeast, unless they just get lazy or forget. Those that don't, generally don't. Both will make beer, but some of us go that extra mile (or inch, in this case) for better beer.

Also, the guy may have confused rehydrating with proofing or making a starter.
I would hope that if someone could mistake these two very different things, they wouldn't own a LHBS... at least not for very long. That's like telling someone a Belgian Wit and a Hefe Weizen are the same thing.
 

Beerthoven

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
39
Location
Cary, NC
2) Follow the instructions on your packet of yeast. Some say to rehydrate and some don't. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.
On Fermentis yeast (US-05, S-04, etc.) the package says "Sprinkle onto wort," but the technical data sheet available from the mfr's website says to rehydrate and gives instructions for doing so. Proper rehydration results in higher pitching rates compared to dry sprinkling, and it's so easy that I always rehydrate.
 

taylornate

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
224
Reaction score
2
Location
Springfield, IL
No one mentioned it, because no one really does that. Those that rehydrate generally rehydrate any dry yeast, unless they just get lazy or forget. Those that don't, generally don't. Both will make beer, but some of us go that extra mile (or inch, in this case) for better beer.



I would hope that if someone could mistake these two very different things, they wouldn't own a LHBS... at least not for very long. That's like telling someone a Belgian Wit and a Hefe Weizen are the same thing.
Ok, I went back and did some reading in Palmer's 3rd ed. and you are right, he says rehydrate any dry yeast regardless of instructions.

Either the shop owner understands the difference between rehydrating and proofing and said rehydrating is bad or he does not understand the difference. Either way he is wrong. Or there was a miscommunication.
 

viking999

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
106
Reaction score
0
1) I always filter the wort on its way into the fermenter. You don't get any benefit from having break materials of hops residue in the fermenter. It can however, annoy you later when you're trying to avoid it when racking/bottling. Also, it may give you the wrong impression of your volume or take up space in your fermenter and increase your chances of blowoff. The volume is so small that it would rarely make a difference, but why not just run it through a strainer? It's no extra hassle in my experience.

2) I can't imagine why rehydrating would be bad for the yeast. Thus far I have always rehydrated, but all the dry yeasts I've used have instructed me to do so (they're very small, but if you listen closely that's what they say!).

3) Any kit that has the kind of ingredients you'd put into your custom made beer, should be fine. Watch out for kits that give you sugar for the boil or prehopped extract without any additional hops to add. You'd want to supplement a kit like that with DME or some hops, and at that point why even get a kit?
 
OP
daveooph131

daveooph131

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
34
Location
Dallas, TX
Good stuff...Thanks! I can't wait to get started this weekend. Any suggestions on how to get a cheap strainer? I was thinking maybe a home depot or something...
 

XXguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
1,116
Reaction score
17
Location
Southeastern PA
personally - I'd tell a newbie with ZERO batches under his belt to pitch dry. Rehydrating is just one more step to screw up. It's certainly easy enough, but all you need is one anxious newbie to toss the yeast in 3 seconds after boiling.... and the yeast is toast.
 

llazy_llama

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
92
Location
Rapid City, South Dakota
personally - I'd tell a newbie with ZERO batches under his belt to pitch dry. Rehydrating is just one more step to screw up. It's certainly easy enough, but all you need is one anxious newbie to toss the yeast in 3 seconds after boiling.... and the yeast is toast.
By that logic, he's just as likely to pitch the yeast into boiling wort, which would have the same effect. If someone can't handle "Boil water. Let it cool to lukewarm. Add dry yeast and stir," I don't think they'd be able to brew at all.
 

Beerthoven

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
39
Location
Cary, NC
By that logic, he's just as likely to pitch the yeast into boiling wort, which would have the same effect. If someone can't handle "Boil water. Let it cool to lukewarm. Add dry yeast and stir," I don't think they'd be able to brew at all.
Agree, I do.
 

Q2XL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
505
Reaction score
3
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan
Do you mean this.... [ame=http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1mdgg_prince-controversy_music]Dailymotion - Prince - Controversy, une vidéo de Master_System. prince, controversy, video, clip, music[/ame]

I had to do it. A few too many homebrews tonight. LOL
 

mahilly

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
92
Reaction score
0
Location
Rocklin, Kalifornia
Good stuff...Thanks! I can't wait to get started this weekend. Any suggestions on how to get a cheap strainer? I was thinking maybe a home depot or something...
Get a 5 gallon nylon paint strainer from home depot (a 2 pack costs about $3). I use them as a steeping bag as well (see also Deathbrewer's sticky on partial mash showing pics of this). They have an elastic band around the opening, and if you ferment in a bucket, the elastic fits nicely around the bucket rim. Just pour through it and lift out the bag with all the crud. (Note: dunk the bag in sanitizing solution first).
 
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
7,732
Reaction score
75
Location
Nanaimo, BC
Dry yeast will have a LOT more viallble cells if you rehydrate yeats properly.

DO NOT rehydrate in a cup of wort. The ozmotic pressure squishes the yeast into oblivion. They need a few minutes to stabilize their cell walls. Enough will survive but why under pitch??

Underpitching increases esters.

Check out Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage Their instructions are pretty much the norm for rehydrating and they used to have an awesome Q/A done with a leading yeast scientist. They have a good FAQ as well.

EDIT: From the FAQ

Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.

Does foam or no foam during rehydration give me an indication of how actively the yeast will ferment?

No! There is no definite explanation why some dry yeasts foam more than others but it has been proven in a series of tests that the occurrence of foam during rehydration is not an indication for more active yeast. Yeast that produced large amounts of foam could have poorer activity than yeast that did not produce any or only small amounts of foam.
 

jmlabeck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
83
Reaction score
10
Location
Watertown, CT
Hey, Dave,
I'll go into more detail, but basically the answer for 1,2 and 3 is "Don't worry". If you sanitize everything, the rest of the process is very forgiving.

1)If your starting out extract. don't worry. That other stuff you don't want was taken out already. If you're doing all-grain, well, getting the wort off the trub isn't bad, but not critical.

2) Rehydrating the yeast, again, isn't bad, but not critical.

3) Starting out with a kit is good for a newbie. Soon enough you'll start designing recipes.

Again, I can't stress enough. Don't worry! I wrote on another thread there are five rules

1. sanitize
2. sanitize
3. sanitize
4. patience
5. patience

Good brewing!

Joe
 

obezyana1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2009
Messages
297
Reaction score
1
Location
Alexandria, VA
That's like telling someone a Belgian Wit and a Hefe Weizen are the same thing.
They aren't? But they are both made with wheat and both come from Europe, which we all know is just one big country anway, right? :D:ban:

P.S. Please don't shoot me.
 

Weizenheimer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
219
Reaction score
5
Location
Greenville
for me here is what I do and I've never had any issues

1. I pour the wort through a large strainer into the Primary (ale pail.) This not only filters out sludge but also get lots of oxygen into the wort which is a good thing at this stage.

2. Even if the yeast calls for it I don't Rehydrate, I've never made a starter for liquid yeast either. Maybe my fermentation starts off a bit slower but I've never had an issue and seems like extra work to me.

3. You can make great beers from kits, but after a while you may want to experiment away from them.

Cheers, and happy brewing
 

Smurfe

I Pull It By Hand!
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
122
Reaction score
1
Location
GONZALES
I always leave the trub, or as much of it I can behind. It isn't necessary though. Just less crud in the fermenter I have to worry about trying to leave behind when kegging or bottling.

In regards to the yeast, I use a lot of dry yeasts. I rarely rehydrate the Fermentis yeasts but it never hurts. It just gets them going faster and you have shorter lag times. If I think ahead and boil some water to sterile I will but I usually forget to in time.

On the kits it depends on if you are buying an extract or all grain kit. Extract kits are fine but I wouldn't buy an all grain kit unless you average efficiency meets the kit specs. I never considered them though as I always try to get 6 gallons to the fermenter so I can get a full 5 gallons of clear beer to the keg. Kits are designed for 5 gallons to the fermenter. Depending on what yeast you use and how tight it compacts you might loose up to a gallon with racking.

It is easy enough to make up your own recipe though or use one of the tried and true recipes like here in the recipe section to just make your own. It also helps you get a better understanding as to just what goes into your beer and will help build a knowledge base to advance your brewing in the future. Many stores will push the kits to beginners though as they make a decent beer on the most part and the customer will be happy. Not to mention the profit margin can be higher on the pre-packaged kits. Brewing is easy though. I started all grain and the worst two beers I ever made were from extract kits.
 

HP_Lovecraft

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
196
Reaction score
3
By that logic, he's just as likely to pitch the yeast into boiling wort, which would have the same effect. If someone can't handle "Boil water. Let it cool to lukewarm. Add dry yeast and stir," I don't think they'd be able to brew at all.
I do not see how its "just as likely". When I was starting out 20 or so years ago, I didn't even have a thermometer. But I wasnt that hard to figure out when the wort was a resonable temp. However, knowing the proper temp of the water for yeast hydrating is harder to get correctly in that environment.

Look how many people suggested using wort for hydrating for example.
 

camiller

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
1,907
Reaction score
50
Location
Omaha, NE
...

2) I can't imagine why rehydrating would be bad for the yeast. Thus far I have always rehydrated, but all the dry yeasts I've used have instructed me to do so (they're very small, but if you listen closely that's what they say!).

3) Any kit that has the kind of ingredients you'd put into your custom made beer, should be fine. Watch out for kits that give you sugar for the boil or prehopped extract without any additional hops to add. You'd want to supplement a kit like that with DME or some hops, and at that point why even get a kit?
2) viking999 is the Yeast Whisperer.

3) Watch out for suger, unless its appropriate, like a tripple with Belgian candi sugar.

Dave,

Was the Bavarian Hefenfeizen kit branded Tru Brew? Crosby&Baker (Manufacture of Tru Brew kits) has only had this kit available for a month or so and I don't know anyone who has made it yet so I'd appreciate hearing how it turns out. They also have a oaked imperial stout kit that might be the next kit I make.
 

EoinMag

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,165
Reaction score
69
Location
Dublin, Ireland.
I aerate my wort properly by pouring it from a height into the fermenter, the result is a large foamy head that subsides after a while, I sprinkle my dry yeasts on top of that. My reckoning is that sprinking it on there they have a bit of time to rehydrate without being in a tough wort environment, but the time they sink a bit, they're well able to handle the environment.
 
OP
daveooph131

daveooph131

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
34
Location
Dallas, TX
2) viking999 is the Yeast Whisperer.

3) Watch out for suger, unless its appropriate, like a tripple with Belgian candi sugar.

Dave,

Was the Bavarian Hefenfeizen kit branded Tru Brew? Crosby&Baker (Manufacture of Tru Brew kits) has only had this kit available for a month or so and I don't know anyone who has made it yet so I'd appreciate hearing how it turns out. They also have a oaked imperial stout kit that might be the next kit I make.
Yes it is a Tru Brew kit. Right now it's in the fermenter on day 2. After about 8 hours the action started. I have a pretty nice Krausen on top though it has subsided a little since the weekend. I'll let you know how it turns out!
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
273
Reaction score
10
Location
Cleveland, OH
Welcome to the obsession... You just learned one of the most important things about homebrewing - if there is more than one way to do something, odds are people are doing it all those ways. To rehydrate or not to... a question that will be debated to the end of brewing days, I'm sure. :) As with many things, the answer is "it depends." If you pull up the manufacturers (farmers?) data sheet, they'll likely recommend you rehydrate in warm water. Plenty of us pitch dry yeast without rehydrating it - I am one of them. Just understand the risks involved. I'm not sure why your LHBS dude would have said that rehydrating the yeast is bad for them. That's just hogwash. He might just have been trying to keep you in KISS-mode for the first time around.
 
Top