Control Panel Schematic - Need Help

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K&KBREW

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Hey guys,

I have recently decided it's time to bring the E-Herms dream to life and have hit a bit of a snag. I am by no means an electrician and I am having one heck of a time trying to find exactly what I need to power this puppy, since I want to be able to run both elements and pumps at the same time, and most setups I see are 30a systems.

I have scoured the internet and this is the closest I have been able to come up with as far as a schematic, however, there are a few differences from what I see here to what I have.


(schematic link)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qEYEjV4sbW19cfUlzXrvuJGH9_4vy5uI/view?usp=sharing


Differences:

I have an amp/volt meter
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00YY1KOHA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I am using 2 alarm switches and only 1 alarm buzzer, one for the HLT and one for the BK
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=69_73&products_id=349

Instead of Auber SW11 for element power switches I found these illuminated toggle switches much more aesthetically pleasing
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012IHZW4G/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I was made to understand these switches will need the power "downgraded" in order for them to be able to illuminate so I picked up these doorbell transformers as well as these AC to DC converters
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G0MB46/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BXAM694/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


Other Concern:

I don't know much about electricity, but by my buddy's numbers, each element will pull about 23 amps, and the chugger pumps say they will run about 1.5 amps. I assume the 50a contactor listed in the original schematic won't allow for spikes from things turning on, would this be a better initial contactor?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFEDF54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


My buddy works on generators and is going to assist me with actually wiring everything together, but he is needing a schematic to go off of. I understand one of the biggest changes I am making to this schematic is for a visual aesthetic, but if it's possible, this is really how I would like it to look.

I was hoping any of you with an electrical background might be able to assist me in this, as it is hurting my brain at this point :drunk:

You aren't the hero I deserve, but you are the hero I need! Thanks in advance.

- Cheers
 
Last edited by a moderator:
herms.jpg

Almost forgot to show off the keggles!
 
Hey guys,

I have recently decided it's time to bring the E-Herms dream to life and have hit a bit of a snag. I am by no means an electrician and I am having one heck of a time trying to find exactly what I need to power this puppy, since I want to be able to run both elements and pumps at the same time, and most setups I see are 30a systems.

I have scoured the internet and this is the closest I have been able to come up with as far as a schematic, however, there are a few differences from what I see here to what I have.


(schematic link)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qEYEjV4sbW19cfUlzXrvuJGH9_4vy5uI/view?usp=sharing
I know a little something about that design :D, so maybe I can help.
Integrating a V/A meter is pretty trivial. The only question is which current you actually want to measure. The way this design is, you can measure the combined element currents, plus one or the other pump, but not both. More about this below.
I am using 2 alarm switches and only 1 alarm buzzer, one for the HLT and one for the BK
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=69_73&products_id=349
This is a relatively trivial change.
Instead of Auber SW11 for element power switches I found these illuminated toggle switches much more aesthetically pleasing
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012IHZW4G/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I was made to understand these switches will need the power "downgraded" in order for them to be able to illuminate so I picked up these doorbell transformers as well as these AC to DC converters
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G0MB46/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BXAM694/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I strongly recommend against using those switches in this design. It would add unnecessary complication, and eliminate the ability to wire the "safe start" circuitry. My objection is strong enough that if you insist on using these switches, I will not provide any help with the design. Sorry if this is a problem for you. Of course you may still use and modify the design on your own, or with others' help.
Other Concern:

I don't know much about electricity, but by my buddy's numbers, each element will pull about 23 amps, and the chugger pumps say they will run about 1.5 amps. I assume the 50a contactor listed in the original schematic won't allow for spikes from things turning on, would this be a better initial contactor?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFEDF54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
The two pumps are wired on different hot lines to reduce the total current load on either hot to 2*23+1.5 = 47.5A, rather than the 49A that would be drawn on one hot if both pumps were on the same hot leg. With the safe start circuit, the main power relay can only be enabled when all element and pump switches are off, so the contactor can never be turned on under load. Ideally, the shutdown procedure would be to turn off all element and pump switches prior to turning off the main power switch, so again there would be zero current switched by the main contactor. The only time you should have to switch full load current is when using the main power switch for a quick shutdown is something goes wrong.

The current sensing coil goes on one of the two hot lines, so can measure the current of both elements and the pump on the hot line with the sensor, but not the current thru the other pump.

My buddy works on generators and is going to assist me with actually wiring everything together, but he is needing a schematic to go off of. I understand one of the biggest changes I am making to this schematic is for a visual aesthetic, but if it's possible, this is really how I would like it to look.

I was hoping any of you with an electrical background might be able to assist me in this, as it is hurting my brain at this point :drunk:

You aren't the hero I deserve, but you are the hero I need! Thanks in advance.

- Cheers



Brew on :mug:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow! This is so cool that you are the one responding, I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. I can't tell you how many times my google searches have come to a thread in here that you were helping to answer.

The two pumps are wired on different hot lines to reduce the total current load on either hot to 2*23+1.5 = 47.5A, rather than the 49A that would be drawn on one hot if both pumps were on the same hot leg. With the safe start circuit, the main power relay can only be enabled when all element and pump switches are off, so the contactor can never be turned on under load. Ideally, the shutdown procedure would be to turn off all element and pump switches prior to turning off the main power switch, so again there would be zero current switched by the main contactor. The only time you should have to switch full load current is when using the main power switch for a quick shutdown is something goes wrong.

The current sensing coil goes on one of the two hot lines, so can measure the current of both elements and the pump on the hot line with the sensor, but not the current thru the other pump.

Ah, gotcha! And I'm guessing this is why your schematic didn't having one included? Although I know it's not "necessary" to have, I thought it was a nice touch. So short of putting both pumps on the same leg and going with a larger contactor, I wouldn't be able to know the load for both elements and pumps?


I strongly recommend against using those switches in this design. It would add unnecessary complication, and eliminate the ability to wire the "safe start" circuitry. My objection is strong enough that if you insist on using these switches, I will not provide any help with the design. Sorry if this is a problem for you. Of course you may still use and modify the design on your own, or with others' help.

Well, this is very sad news. Now again, I am no electrician, but could you elaborate on how it eliminates capability for safe start circuitry?

And although I certainly don't want to go against your wisdom, I would still be curious if there was a way to accomplish what I want (for science!). I know it's extra work for aesthetics, but if you look at my keggles, you can probably tell I don't mind putting in a little extra time and effort for appearance purposes. If it turns out to be so impractical that it leans towards impossible, I can always order the recommended switches and wire it the way you have it! ;)

That being said, is there anyone else who might be able to make a suggestion on how to incorporate these toggle switches?



P.S. Thank you very much for your time and reply so far :)
 
Wow! This is so cool that you are the one responding, I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. I can't tell you how many times my google searches have come to a thread in here that you were helping to answer.



Ah, gotcha! And I'm guessing this is why your schematic didn't having one included? Although I know it's not "necessary" to have, I thought it was a nice touch. So short of putting both pumps on the same leg and going with a larger contactor, I wouldn't be able to know the load for both elements and pumps?




Well, this is very sad news. Now again, I am no electrician, but could you elaborate on how it eliminates capability for safe start circuitry?

And although I certainly don't want to go against your wisdom, I would still be curious if there was a way to accomplish what I want (for science!). I know it's extra work for aesthetics, but if you look at my keggles, you can probably tell I don't mind putting in a little extra time and effort for appearance purposes. If it turns out to be so impractical that it leans towards impossible, I can always order the recommended switches and wire it the way you have it! ;)

That being said, is there anyone else who might be able to make a suggestion on how to incorporate these toggle switches?



P.S. Thank you very much for your time and reply so far :)

I'm not worried about the contactor current rating, since it should almost never be switched under load. Contactors usually fail due to either erosion or welding of the contact points. Erosion occurs due to arcing as the contacts open or close under load. Welding normally occurs when turning the contactor on when attached to a load (or short) that will draw significantly more current than the contactor is rated for. Both are very unlikely to happen when this design is operated normally.

(The following is all speculation, as I don't know very much about the current vs. time to trip specs for circuit breakers. There may be no issue at all if there is sufficient over current margin in the breaker specs.)
I am somewhat worried about powering thru a 50A circuit breaker if both elements and both pumps are on, and both pumps are fed by the same hot leg. The nominal current draw would be ~49A. If the breaker tolerances are such that it can trip at slightly less than its rated current, then you could be subject to nuisance tripping during operation. With the pumps fed from different hot legs, then the max current would be about 47.5A, a 2.5X larger trip margin for the breaker. It would be easy enough to feed both pumps from the same hot leg however.

The switches are a problem for the "safe start" interlock. The safe start circuit prevents accidental dry firing of elements, or spraying water/wort from a pump that doesn't have all hoses connected, when the system power is turned on. The interlock prevents the main contactor from being turned on if any of the pump or element enable switches is on. In order to do this the pump and element enable switches need to be single throw, double pole types, with one pair of contacts being normally open (NO), and the other being normally closed (NC). The switches you want to use are single pole NO switches, so can't be used with the interlock. If you could find similar looking switches that have NO/NC switch pairs they could be made to work with the interlock.

Since the pumps and contactor coils run on 120 volts, the switches also have to be rated for a minimum of 120V. Your preferred switches are only rated for 12V. In order to use 12V switches, all the contactors would need to be changed for 12V coil contactors. Contactors with 24V coils are readily available, but I don't know about 12V coils. Changing to low voltage switches would also require adding relays to switch pump power.

So, first you have to find suitable looking double pole NO/NC switches, and then add some additional cost and complexity to run everything from 12V. If you could find similar looking NO/NC switches that were 120V rated, they could be used as is.

Brew on :mug:
 
To be honest, the safe start circuitry for these toggle switches seems kind of trivial to me since I will be able to tell so clearly if they are in the on or off position. I can see why that would be helpful for a push button though.

But I think I see where the issue is, based on what you're saying.

I have never done anything like this before, but I assumed I could wire these 12v DC toggle switches between the PID and SSR, since that signal was already 12v DC. Then all I needed was to run another wire off one leg to a doorbell transformer then to the AC > DC converter to run power for the LED lights on the switches. So they have to be run into the contactor, not the ssr? I'm sorry if that is a stupid question, but I'm just trying to make sure I have an understanding of how this works.
 
To be honest, the safe start circuitry for these toggle switches seems kind of trivial to me since I will be able to tell so clearly if they are in the on or off position. I can see why that would be helpful for a push button though.

But I think I see where the issue is, based on what you're saying.

I have never done anything like this before, but I assumed I could wire these 12v DC toggle switches between the PID and SSR, since that signal was already 12v DC. Then all I needed was to run another wire off one leg to a doorbell transformer then to the AC > DC converter to run power for the LED lights on the switches. So they have to be run into the contactor, not the ssr? I'm sorry if that is a stupid question, but I'm just trying to make sure I have an understanding of how this works.
Before you turn on the main power switch, you will NOT be able to easily tell if those switches are on or off, since the lights will not operate until after main power is switched on. Without the safe start circuit, unless you religiously follow a written start up and shut down check list, you will eventually leave switches on at the end of a brew day (especially if beer was consumed), and have something that shouldn't, turn on immediately at the start of the next brew session. That's just how people are, no dig at you personally. Using the switches and contactors specified in the design, the cost of the safe start interlock is almost zero (a little extra wire, and time is all that is required, everything else would be there anyway.)

Also, SSR's are current switches, they do not cut off voltage, or even 100% of the current (off leakage is on the order of 1 - 2 mA, which is enough to shock you.) SSR's are the most likely component to fail in your control panel, and the normal failure mode leaves the SSR turned on. For this reason, you need contactors (or high current manual switches) to provide a positive disconnect of the power. This is a safety issue. Turning off the control signal to a failed SSR will NOT turn the SSR off, you need another way to insure you can do cut the power.

There are a lot of less than safe ways to design control panels that will work, and you are free to do that if you are so inclined. But, I will not assist in designing something that I do not feel meets safety requirements.

Brew on :mug:
 
Alrighty, that makes sense, I'll mull it over and I really appreciate your time. (I've been refreshing this page constantly for your reply)

Either way I'm excited to be making progress in getting this thing put together.

So a follow-up question for you Doug, would running all pumps and elements to one leg of power for the meter also eliminate the safe circuitry? And also, I'm guessing it wouldn't hurt to throw a bigger contactor on there just to "be safe"?

And I understand what you have said about the toggle switches, I am pretty much 99% convinced, but as a last attempt to know there isn't much more I could do. Does anyone else either have a suggestion how I could either make them work OR give a nod towards Doug's previous suggestions just so I know I am not throwing in the towel prematurely?

Every step of this project I have had input from multiple people. And I can't tell you how many times I have one person tell me one thing and then another say the complete opposite. :confused:
 
Alrighty, that makes sense, I'll mull it over and I really appreciate your time. (I've been refreshing this page constantly for your reply)

Either way I'm excited to be making progress in getting this thing put together.

So a follow-up question for you Doug, would running all pumps and elements to one leg of power for the meter also eliminate the safe circuitry? And also, I'm guessing it wouldn't hurt to throw a bigger contactor on there just to "be safe"?

And I understand what you have said about the toggle switches, I am pretty much 99% convinced, but as a last attempt to know there isn't much more I could do. Does anyone else either have a suggestion how I could either make them work OR give a nod towards Doug's previous suggestions just so I know I am not throwing in the towel prematurely?

Every step of this project I have had input from multiple people. And I can't tell you how many times I have one person tell me one thing and then another say the complete opposite. :confused:

Running both pumps on one hot leg would not affect the operation of the safe start interlock. The elements must be operated from both legs, otherwise you only get 120V and only 1/4 of the elements' rated power.

Adding a higher current rated contactor will not hurt anything, but it is unnecessary. If you want to beef something up, go to a higher rated main circuit breaker, along with the larger wire required for the higher current capacity.

One thing that is not on the drawing explicitly (since it was a quick and dirty markup of another design) is that the "really fat" wires up to the 30A breakers/fuses need to be 6AWG to meet code for use with at 50A breaker.

Brew on :mug:
 
Doug, thank you very much again for all your time and effort. I wish the communication wasn't only through text so you would know all of my responses are not intended to question or undermine your advice, they are coming from inexperience. I am super stoked to have you here and taking time out of your day to help me understand this. ;)

So, I think I will just do it your way with the switches.
I already have 2 SW16's I was going to use for the alarm selectors anyway. And I'll just do it how you show and have a buzzer for each PID (need to order 3 more of those).

I will also bump up the main contactor up to the 63a one since with shipping from auber it's about the same price.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFEDF54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Let me try to re-configure my original post, then.


Differences:

I have 4 PIDs
(one control's HLT, one controls boil, one reads temp leaving hex coil and controls nothing, one reads temp leaving mash tun and controls nothing)

I would like to include the amp volt meter, still.
Would it be possible to put both pumps on the same leg and have it read power from the 6 awg wire coming in to get a reading on everything? Or is there something I'm not understanding in this schematic (probably the case)?

I originally bought the IND-2 indicator lamps
Will these not work, I notice they are 120v and the ones you used are the "uglier" ones, but they use 240v :X



Could I trouble you to possibly try to make these changes in the schematic so it eliminates guess work (and probably errors) on my part?
If not, I can just try my hand at changing it around in photoshop and posting versions until you give it your seal of approval.

Oh, and one last question. Do you have a rough guesstimate as to how much length of each wire it might take to do this? I don't mind going a little over, but if I don't have to keep going back and forth to home depot that would be AWESOME! haha
 
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oh, and most schematics I've seen have terminals somewhere in the equation. Is this something that is needed for your schematic too?
 
Doug, thank you very much again for all your time and effort. I wish the communication wasn't only through text so you would know all of my responses are not intended to question or undermine your advice, they are coming from inexperience. I am super stoked to have you here and taking time out of your day to help me understand this. ;)
I needed something to keep my mind active after I retired, and learning how to design control panels was something that could help fill that need. Explaining how and why my designs are configured as they are does two things:
  1. Educates brewers who don't have familiarity with electricity and circuit design, allowing many homebrewers to successfully implement their own DIY control panels that not only work, but are designed with safety in mind.
  2. Forces me to continually evaluate my designs and design approach to see if things can be done better.
The kind of questions you ask makes me think about what I have done, and how to explain and justify it to others. If I can't write an explanation that I think is bullet proof, then maybe my design isn't as good as it could be. And over the few years I have been doing this, my designs have definitely improved. So, your questions actually help me as well. And the folks following along also get to learn something.

So, I think I will just do it your way with the switches.
I already have 2 SW16's I was going to use for the alarm selectors anyway. And I'll just do it how you show and have a buzzer for each PID (need to order 3 more of those).
It's relatively simple to have multiple PID's drive a single alarm, it just requires a switch for each PID. Adding these switches also gives you an easy way to silence or disable a particular alarm.

I will also bump up the main contactor up to the 63a one since with shipping from auber it's about the same price.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFEDF54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Let me try to re-configure my original post, then.


Differences:

I have 4 PIDs
(one control's HLT, one controls boil, one reads temp leaving hex coil and controls nothing, one reads temp leaving mash tun and controls nothing)

I would like to include the amp volt meter, still.
Would it be possible to put both pumps on the same leg and have it read power from the 6 awg wire coming in to get a reading on everything? Or is there something I'm not understanding in this schematic (probably the case)?
Yes it can be redesigned so that all pump currents come form a single hot line.

I originally bought the IND-2 indicator lamps
Will these not work, I notice they are 120v and the ones you used are the "uglier" ones, but they use 240v :X
You can't use 120V LED's as element firing indicators, since the indicators must be wired across the switched and unswitched hot lines feeding the element. If you can find 240V AC LED indicators that you find more aesthetically pleasing, they can be substituted.

Could I trouble you to possibly try to make these changes in the schematic so it eliminates guess work (and probably errors) on my part?
If not, I can just try my hand at changing it around in photoshop and posting versions until you give it your seal of approval.
I can do the modifications for you, but it will take several days.

Oh, and one last question. Do you have a rough guesstimate as to how much length of each wire it might take to do this? I don't mind going a little over, but if I don't have to keep going back and forth to home depot that would be AWESOME! haha
I can't offer any specifics here. It depends on how the components are positioned relative to each other, and how big the enclosure is.

oh, and most schematics I've seen have terminals somewhere in the equation. Is this something that is needed for your schematic too?
I assume you are talking about terminal strips. Their use can simplify the wiring job, and make tracing wires later easier. I don't put them explicitly in my schematics (since adding them doesn't change the connectivity of the wires, just the physical layout), but they can be used wherever they are convenient. A lot of the required connections can be made without employing terminal strips, because most device terminals will allow two wires to be connected using spade or loop wire terminations.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Doug, you sir, are amazing!

I will order 2 of the recommended indicator lights.


Alright, so then the only two changes I will go with from your original schematic will be:

4 PID's - each will have it's own alarm
(this requires me to buy the fewest parts, and I like that it will let me set multiple alarms at once. Might come in handy on back to back brew sessions)

Adding Volt/Amp Meter - will need everything running on one leg of power so it can give an accurate reading.

Also I'm not planning on doing a "main power on lamp", but I can see that is an easy thing to remove.
 
Doug, you sir, are amazing!

I will order 2 of the recommended indicator lights.


Alright, so then the only two changes I will go with from your original schematic will be:

4 PID's - each will have it's own alarm
(this requires me to buy the fewest parts, and I like that it will let me set multiple alarms at once. Might come in handy on back to back brew sessions)

Adding Volt/Amp Meter - will need everything running on one leg of power so it can give an accurate reading.

Also I'm not planning on doing a "main power on lamp", but I can see that is an easy thing to remove.
If you want to leave out the main power on lamp, then the power feed to the PID's should be rewired so that you have some indication when the safe start interlock is preventing power from coming on. Easy for me to do, but might not be obvious to you.

Brew on :mug:
 
I figured seeing everything power on would be a good indication that there is power.

If I turn the key and things don't turn on I figure it would be due to either my emergency shut off switch, or a button/selector was left in the on position?

Oh well, I guess I can just keep the power on lamp haha. Oh, I am just realizing yours doesn't have an emergency shut off switch. That would be one other difference.
 
@K&KBREW there are a couple of things that will get taken care of from a design standpoint when @doug293cz finishes with your schematics, but you need to be aware of when you go to lay out and build your enclosure.

First, make certain you are aware of the potential current a piece of wire in the drawing is expected to carry, and size your wiring accordingly. You always need to look at the nearest "upstream" (towards your house's main breaker panel) breaker or fuse to figure out the max. current a wire has to be able to handle.

Next, select your terminals and connections to try and minimize any exposed connections that carry current. Most of the DIN rail equipment is pretty well protected against wandering hands and dropped screwdrivers. Every week, there are new pics posted on this board that have some really scary wiring practices. Electrical tape and wire nuts should be on your list of forbidden materials. Ditto with 10AWG wire shoved into blue crimp-on terminals. Spend some time studying pics of enclosures that look more like the level of effort that went into the beautiful polishing work you did for your keggles. Pro tip: a toolbox is not a proper enclosure. Ask questions if you have any doubts.

Buy an enclosure that is way bigger than you think you could possibly need. You'll need it.

Finally, @doug293cz is a sharp cookie. I would follow his design advice. Don't get bogged down in the esthetics. Martha Stewart isn't coming over on brew day to evaluate your color palette. Far better to have a safe, robust, industrial-grade rig that won't fry your ass.
 
Thank you for the advice @GParkins.

I ordered the biggest enclosure they had on auber instruments.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=430

I have faith in my friend who is going help me with wiring it up. He works on generators for a living, so he is very confident in how to wire it, just wanted me to have a schematic.

And I do plan to take all of Doug's advice. Although I am a new member here, I've seen him helping people for a long time.
 
I figured seeing everything power on would be a good indication that there is power.

If I turn the key and things don't turn on I figure it would be due to either my emergency shut off switch, or a button/selector was left in the on position?

Oh well, I guess I can just keep the power on lamp haha. Oh, I am just realizing yours doesn't have an emergency shut off switch. That would be one other difference.
With the current schematic, the PID's are not affected by the safe start interlock, so that they will come on even if power is disabled to everything else. That's why the main power light is there. If you turn the key and the PID's light up, but the power lamp doesn't, then you have left a switch on that shouldn't be. If you don't want to include the main power light, then it's pretty simple to rewire so that the PID's won't come on, if any switch is left on. That way the PID's will function as you describe in the quoted post.

When it comes to laying out your components in the enclosure, you might want to make cardboard blocks that fill the same space as the various components. Then you can place them and move them around until everything fits without interference, before you start cutting holes in your enclosure.

Brew on :mug:
 
Hey guys,

Very interest topic here.
I have been also looking for more information for my control panel build. I have already built one for a RIMS system using Doug's schematics with a slight change just based on preferences.
Let me say thanks to Doug and the outstanding work on helping people and provide guidance.
Now, I am working on 1BBL control panel and I have to power 4 elements, so I am looking this thread for basis of design using 2 elements and maybe start from there.
Have you seen a go-by schematic for 4 elements?

One question about safe-start design: once the keyed switch is on will also powered the contactor for normal power supply to the elements. If the pump will go ON the NC will open the circuit and unlatched the contactor? or the second 1A in the line next to contactor will keep it latched.

Thanks
 
If you don't want to include the main power light, then it's pretty simple to rewire so that the PID's won't come on, if any switch is left on. That way the PID's will function as you describe in the quoted post.

Could we add that to the changes your making in the schematic?
 
Hey guys,

Very interest topic here.
I have been also looking for more information for my control panel build. I have already built one for a RIMS system using Doug's schematics with a slight change just based on preferences.
Let me say thanks to Doug and the outstanding work on helping people and provide guidance.
Now, I am working on 1BBL control panel and I have to power 4 elements, so I am looking this thread for basis of design using 2 elements and maybe start from there.
Have you seen a go-by schematic for 4 elements?
I haven't done a 4 element system. @augiedoggy might have something along those lines. Are you thinking 4 X 5500W, or something else. Would require a 50A feed if only two elements would be operating at a time, but a 100A feed (or 2 X 50A feeds) to be able to operate 4 elements simultaneously. Would need a lot more details on how you wanted the system to operate in order to design proper control circuitry.

One question about safe-start design: once the keyed switch is on will also powered the contactor for normal power supply to the elements. If the pump will go ON the NC will open the circuit and unlatched the contactor? or the second 1A in the line next to contactor will keep it latched.
Once the main power is on, then power to the main contactor coil is supplied thru the 1A fuse next to the contactor, regardless of the state of the pump or element enable switches. Just as you surmised. When the main power switch is turned off, the power to the main contactor coil is cut off, and the main contactor opens to cut off power to the pumps and elements.

I'm kind of proud of this safe start circuit. Other ones I have seen require a separate relay be added to the system, but I figured out how to do it without adding extra components. I'm not claiming to have invented this method, just independently figuring out how to do it.


Thanks

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm kind of proud of this safe start circuit.

As you should be, it's very well thought out.

My wife and I are expecting our first baby in August, so safety is the top priority when working with this much power. ;)
 

Thanks for the clarification about safe start wiring, the 1A fuse will latch the contactor until the main power is switched off. Of course you should be proud of it...:yes:!!
I am thinking on 4 x 5500W elements, only two operating same time for a 50A feed. Two elements for HLT and two elements for BK, and two PID controllers for each HLT/BK and one timer for MT. I am using Auber PID Ezboil on my RIMS control panel, and planning to use in my HERMS control panel too.
 
Oh, and Doug.

This is the exact Amp/Voltmeter I picked up. Just want to make sure I give you accurate info.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_50&products_id=490
Ok, and what PID's (or EZBoils) do you plan to use, and have you bought them already?

Not sure on the exact alarm configuration you are looking for:
  1. 1 alarm indicator with 4 alarm enable/disable switches (one for each PID)
  2. 4 alarm indicators with 4 alarm enable/disable switches
  3. 4 alarm indicators with no alarm enable/disable switches
No safety related concerns with any of the above, so your preference rules.

Brew on :mug:
 
Thanks for the clarification about safe start wiring, the 1A fuse will latch the contactor until the main power is switched off. Of course you should be proud of it...:yes:!!
I am thinking on 4 x 5500W elements, only two operating same time for a 50A feed. Two elements for HLT and two elements for BK, and two PID controllers for each HLT/BK and one timer for MT. I am using Auber PID Ezboil on my RIMS control panel, and planning to use in my HERMS control panel too.
Do you want to be able to run with one HLT and one BK element on simultaneously, or just both HLT elements on or both BK elements on with no split? If you want to split 1 & 1 it can be done, but will be a more complex and expensive design.

Brew on :mug:
 
Ok, and what PID's (or EZBoils) do you plan to use, and have you bought them already?

Not sure on the exact alarm configuration you are looking for:
  1. 1 alarm indicator with 4 alarm enable/disable switches (one for each PID)
  2. 4 alarm indicators with 4 alarm enable/disable switches
  3. 4 alarm indicators with no alarm enable/disable switches
No safety related concerns with any of the above, so your preference rules.

These are the PID's, I already have 4 of them purchased.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

I would go with option 3.
Four alarm indicators with no switches.
 
Doug, do you have any 30a breakers you recommend or like?

Oh, and one question I do have with this safe wiring setup.

If I did accidentally start up the system with a switch left on, does that blow the 1a fuse requiring replacement before I can run the system again?
 
Do you want to be able to run with one HLT and one BK element on simultaneously, or just both HLT elements on or both BK elements on with no split? If you want to split 1 & 1 it can be done, but will be a more complex and expensive design.

Brew on :mug:
I want be able to run both HLT elements on, or both BK elements on with no split.
 
These are the PID's, I already have 4 of them purchased.
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

I would go with option 3.
Four alarm indicators with no switches.

Ok

Doug, do you have any 30a breakers you recommend or like?

Oh, and one question I do have with this safe wiring setup.

If I did accidentally start up the system with a switch left on, does that blow the 1a fuse requiring replacement before I can run the system again?

The 2-pole, 32A version of these will work nicely.

No, the fuse will not blow just from trying to turn the system on.

Brew on :mug:
 
Got the buzzers, the correct lamps, the 63a contactor and the 2 pole 32a breakers ;)
 
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Every morning I get this email and I grab my phone in a panic haha
 
oh, well apparently I can't make the link public right now lol.

It's just an email from homebrewtalk about "yesterdays activity". Every morning about 8:30am I get it and I jump to my phone.
 
Hey Doug,

Just checking in. Did you need any other info from me?
Hopefully summer is off to a good start for you!

:)
 
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