Consistent Low mash pH with dark beers

[Hartwa]

I have struggled with this for a while and am determined to figure it out.

I use bru'n water and after adding my water profile, grain bill, and adjustments it says my ph should be 5.35. I consistently get 4.7 or so.

I am using an Orion Ph meter that I calibrate with 4 and 7 buffer and then verify the meter with the 4 buffer....the meter is spot on.

I check my ph 15 min after mix and let it cool.

My water report...

pH 5.8
Ca 12
My 4
Na 5
HCO3 3
CO3 0.5
SO4 6
Cl 20
Alkalinity as CaCO3 3

I am mashing 6.25 gallons water with

16 lbs 2 row
2 lbs crystal 60
1 lbs English brown
1 lbs Chocolate malt

My water additions to the 6.25 gal are...
3.1 g CaCO3
1.3 g NaCl

Is bru'n water that far off with very soft water like this?

Thanks for any help.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Chalk or CaCO3 doesn't readily dissolve in water, in a timely manner, without some help from CO2. (i.e. Chalk takes too long to dissolve in mash water without pre-dissolving it by bubbling CO2 through the solution.)

Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) (1st choice) or Calcium Hydroxide, (pickling lime) (2nd choice), would serve to move the pH, in a timely manner, with more adherence to the calculated value.

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/chalk-none-up-for-chalk

 

[Halfakneecap]

Dark malts will lower ph. You can adjust your water chemistry to suit, or use your normal ph adjustment for pale beers and add your dark malts after the main mash, usually when sparging. I much prefer the latter method, I like the ease and the results. Some people passionately prefer the first method. Really up to you

 

[mac_1103]

How old is your water report? Do you know that your source water is consistent?

 

[MaxStout]

In the mash bill tab of Bru n Water, it gives the option to leave out crystal and roasted grains from the mash calculation. Did you click one or both of those (which would calculate a higher pH), but you actually added the crystal and roast, which would result in a lower pH?

 

[mabrungard]

Chalk has very limited solubility in water and wort, so about all the pH increase you'll achieve out that addition is 0.1 units. You have to use either lime or baking soda to produce a meaningful rise in your wort pH.

 

[Bobby_M]

This is a perfect reason to hold the Brown and Chocolate malts until the end of the mash.

 

[mashdar]

The thread title implies the mash pH is low, but the body indicates the mash pH is high. You're getting conflicting responses because of that.

Holding the dark grains would increase pH. But your pH is already too high, assuming the OP text is correct.

Chalk is not useful. Use other products per the above.

 

[Bobby_M]

The thread title implies the mash pH is low, but the body indicates the mash pH is high. You're getting conflicting responses because of that.

Holding the dark grains would increase pH. But your pH is already too high, assuming the OP text is correct.

I think you're reading it wrong:
" it says my ph should be 5.35. I consistently get 4.7 or so."

Expecting higher, getting lower.

 

[mashdar]

I think you're reading it wrong:
" it says my ph should be 5.35. I consistently get 4.7 or so."

Expecting higher, getting lower.

Oh, my brain replaced 4.7 with 5.7. I don't understand how 4.7 is possible. I guess that's some incredibly low ion water, but wow.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't understand how 4.7 is possible.

I don't either. That grain bill with that water (or distilled water or RO water) and no adjustments should be around 5.1 (plus or minus 0.03). Something weird is going on.

Bru'nWater's predictions are always close for me - maybe off by a tenth or two - whether the beer is light, dark or in between.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Just chiming in that I'd add baking soda instead of chalk...

 

[day_trippr]

If the OP were to post the grain bill perhaps the collective can figure out why the OP was surprised at the outcome...

Cheers!

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

If the OP were to post the grain bill perhaps the collective can figure out why the OP was surprised at the outcome...

He did:

I am mashing 6.25 gallons water with​

​

16 lbs 2 row​

2 lbs crystal 60​

1 lbs English brown​

1 lbs Chocolate malt​

​

My water additions to the 6.25 gal are...​

3.1 g CaCO3​

1.3 g NaCl​

​

But that said, the OG and final volume post-boil he was aiming for would help...

 

[CarenSolis]

It looks like your water has low alkalinity, which can make it harder to reach the desired pH, especially with dark malts. You might need to add a bit more acid or adjust your water salts and double check your pH readings at the right temperature.

 

[mac_1103]

If OP's pH is 4.7, the last thing he needs to do is add acid. The title implies that he doesn't have this problem with light beers, but it seems like his pH for this grain bill would be too low even without the dark grains.

 

[Bobby_M]

The age of the water report is important. My old water supply changed noticeably a few times a year which prompted me to put an RO system in. On the other hand, If removing the chalk from the calculator lands you closer to 4.7 predicted, then you know that's the problem.

 

[Hartwa]

Thanks for the replies.. I replied earlier but it did not post?

My water report is about 5 years old. It is well water and I only tested it once.

I could not find the place on Bru'nwater where you select to exclude the roasted malt in the calculation.

I did a quick mash tonight using mostly pickling lime on a 2.5 gallon batch. Brunwater predicted 5.9...I got 5.3. I went real heavy on lime to get it into the range. But still why is it predicting 5.9?

I used 1.5 gal mash...

0.3g caco3
0.3g nacl
1.4g ca(oh)2.

4 lbs 2 row
.5 lbscrystal 60
.25 lbs brown
.25 lbs choc.

Any thoughts?

 

[day_trippr]

I could not find the place on Bru'nwater where you select to exclude the roasted malt in the calculation.

The two pertinent options are lassoed in red, below...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

I did a quick mash tonight using mostly pickling lime on a 2.5 gallon batch. Brunwater predicted 5.9...I got 5.3. I went real heavy on lime to get it into the range. But still why is it predicting 5.9?

It seems pretty likely that your water is no longer anything like your five year old water report.

 

[Antbeer]

I think you're reading it wrong:
" it says my ph should be 5.35. I consistently get 4.7 or so."

Expecting higher, getting lower.

I’ve also been overshooting the ph with lactic acid additions. I use Beersmith 3 as my recipe software and step back by 1 or 2ml from the recommended dosage. I still can overdose a bit and end up closer to ph5 when i was shooting for ph5.4. I’m using ph test strips which measure between 4.6 and 6.2 now because i was having difficulty with my ph meter

 

[Hartwa]

I will get a new water report. I tried to get my pH to match by tweaking the report numbers to still not close to 5.3....Last night's small batch.

The pH of my water is 5.8. We have some green staining on our shower units. Interesting enough...when wards sent me my results he had my water pH as 7 or so. I emailed him back and told him that could not be right because I know my watervis acidic. He redid my report and found it at 5.8. I wonder if they mixed my report up with another's. When he reverified my water it was just the pH he resample.

For the other poster....my version of Bru'nwater doesn't have that option.

 

[mac_1103]

For the other poster....my version of Bru'nwater doesn't have that option.

Yeah, I think you need the supporter's version for that. Of course, you can exclude the dark grains manually.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Thanks for the replies.. I replied earlier but it did not post?

My water report is about 5 years old. It is well water and I only tested it once.

I could not find the place on Bru'nwater where you select to exclude the roasted malt in the calculation.

I did a quick mash tonight using mostly pickling lime on a 2.5 gallon batch. Brunwater predicted 5.9...I got 5.3. I went real heavy on lime to get it into the range. But still why is it predicting 5.9?

I used 1.5 gal mash...

0.3g caco3
0.3g nacl
1.4g ca(oh)2.

4 lbs 2 row
.5 lbscrystal 60
.25 lbs brown
.25 lbs choc.

Any thoughts?

You've already been told, stop using chalk. No chalk. It doesn't react in a timely manner for use in a mash.

 

[Hartwa]

You've already been told, stop using chalk. No chalk. It doesn't react in a timely manner for use in a mash.

The recipe i am following called for it so I still add some...the point of the test was i went way over on the ca(oh)2 to get my Brunwater estimate way high and realize my actual mash ph was normal.

 

[mac_1103]

Recipes shouldn't call for specific salt additions, should they? I mean, say you're brewing a Guinness clone and your water report matches the Dublin profile exactly. Why would you add anything?

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

The recipe i am following called for it so I still add some...the point of the test was i went way over on the ca(oh)2 to get my Brunwater estimate way high and realize my actual mash ph was normal.

The Bru N Water estimate was high because it calculates all of the chalk and all of the lime as contributing to alkalinity in the mash.

In reality, the chalk is *not* contributing to the mash alkalinity (or very little), therefore the lime addition alone was sufficient to correct the pH.

DON'T USE CHALK! Remove it from your recipes, remove it from your inventory, remove it from your mash calculator, erase it from the chalkboard!

(Disclaimer: Unless you're going to make a solution of dissolved chalk by bubbling CO2 through chalky water.)

 

[Hartwa]

The Bru N Water estimate was high because it calculates all of the chalk and all of the lime as contributing to alkalinity in the mash.

In reality, the chalk is *not* contributing to the mash alkalinity (or very little), therefore the lime addition alone was sufficient to correct the pH.

DON'T USE CHALK! Remove it from your recipes, remove it from your inventory, remove it from your mash calculator, erase it from the chalkboard!

(Disclaimer: Unless you're going to make a solution of dissolved chalk by bubbling CO2 through chalky water.)

Sure...when I remove the chalk addition out of brunwater. It drops the pH estimate from 5.9 to 5.8. I got 5.3 so Iam still 0.5 off.

 

[Peebee]

Yeah, I think you need the supporter's version for that. Of course, you can exclude the dark grains manually.

Interesting. I've not played with those options; instead, I use these:

"Add Sparging Water mineral additions to the Mash?" and "Add Hardness Minerals to Kettle?" are subtly different so both could be enabled. But I've only found reason to enable one or the other. "Hardness Salts" means "Calcium and Magnesium Salts" but "Hardness" takes up less screen space!

These options mess with the "treatment salts" rather than the roast/crystal grains. And if there are clever-dicks with a particular question on their lips ... yes, the roast grain's darkness (and therefore acidity) is truncated at a particular (?) SRM (I know, 'cos I've played about with it ... I just want everyone to know, if they don't know already, I'm the biggest "dick" about here ).

Possibly needs "supporters' version" for those options too? Martin only asks for an "unspecified" contribution to get "supporters' version" (or did, I'm not aware of any change?). But no need to be mean, it is a useful tool.

You've already been told, stop using chalk. No chalk. It doesn't react in a timely manner for use in a mash.

Way-hey! A fellow believer! (Okay, you take this door, I'll take the stairs. Give us a shout if you see any dissenters come by).

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Sure...when I remove the chalk addition out of brunwater. It drops the pH estimate from 5.9 to 5.8. I got 5.3 so Iam still 0.5 off.

Congrats! Now post readable screenshots of each Bru N Water spreadsheet tab you've filled in.

 

[mac_1103]

when I remove the chalk addition out of brunwater. It drops the pH estimate from 5.9 to 5.8. I got 5.3 so Iam still 0.5 off.

Again, this most likely means that your source water profile isn't what you think it is.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Using spreadsheets to predict mash pH is going down the wrong path IMHO. Waste of time. Just measure your pH and after a few batches you'll have a general rule on how you need to adjust your water. For me, it's 0.4 mL lactic acid per gal of strike water for a typical beer, but a third of that for dark stouts. For you, it'll be how much baking soda for a dark stout. For normal beers, you probably won't need any adjustments, but perhaps a small amount of lactic acid.

The two primary factors for us to be concerned with are the bicarbonates in our water (which for you is none) and how dark the beer will be. So it's actually pretty simple, but spreadsheets overcomplicate it unnecessarily and distract us from more important things like recipe design.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Baking soda is the way to go as others have suggested

I personally prefer to add everything to the mash including roasted malts. Bru'n Water usually gets me within 0.10 for darker beers

I aim for a mash PH of 5.4 in Bru'n Water

Martin has advocated mashing at a higher PH than that, but I've overshot 5.6 and extracted tanins on a occasion. I've been happy with the results in the 5 4 range which is a "safer" target

 

[doug293cz]

Recipes shouldn't call for specific salt additions, should they? I mean, say you're brewing a Guinness clone and your water report matches the Dublin profile exactly. Why would you add anything?

No, you should NEVER follow a recipe's recommended water additions. They are (or should be) based on the recipe maker's source water profile, which is unlikely to be the same as yours. Always calculate your own mineral additions based you your source water profille.

Brew on

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

The other suggestion I'd make is doing a mini test mash then adjust your salt additions as needed when you scale it up

 

[mashdar]

I'm still finding pH 4.7 hard to comprehend.

Are your calibration solutions coming from sealed pouches or relatively new (a few months~) bottles?

 

[Hartwa]

The recipe that I am using is my recipe. I have made this beer with my well water and it turned out awesome a few times. I liked it so much I have been trying to replicate it. Out of say 10 tries I would say...2 are awesome, 2 are ok and the rest I drank to get rid of but didn't enjoy.

I noticed that I get within 0.3 ph if I treat the brown malt as "roasted"...

 

[Hartwa]

I going to see how this 2.5 gal batch turns out and go from there.

Good point about the buffer solutions...they are 3 yes old but in sealed plastic bottles.

 

[Peebee]

I'm still finding pH 4.7 hard to comprehend. ...

I don't!

Having spent hours-and-hours (more like weeks-and-weeks) trying to work out why I'm getting mashes about 4.8-4.9 (I try to ignore anything suggesting lower ... perhaps probe is broken? etc.) I eventually tracked the culprit and started applying a work-around.

My water (acid moorland runoff) is low TDS and low alkalinity (a bit like remineralised RO water). Mash in that along with Calcium salts to get the desired water profile and pH drops like a stone. Of course, the water calculator is trying to tell me to add bicarbonate, but I'd consider the amounts to be way over the top and only reluctantly put some of that bicarbonate in (I was always taught adding bicarbonates to water for Pale Ale was a disaster).

What I'd got was a battle between the Calcium salts and the Bicarbonate. I've started just putting enough Calcium to see to the mash (about 30-35mg/L I've concluded) and started using the option I illustrated earlier in the thread ...

"Add Hardness Minerals <sic, calcium salts> to Kettle?". Problem solved. (Snip from "Water Adjustment" page in Bru'n Water).


(Here? What those ridiculously small amounts in top left? "0.67" that's grams! I don't do that foolishness, something wrong there, I'll take a look ... ).

 

[Peebee]

Sorted:

The clip is a bit of "modelling" (as can be seen by those fantasy water quantities), not a real batch, and I'd not updated the salt amounts. The amounts still look ridiculously precise, but that's only because they are teaspoon amounts (obviously not that accurate then!). Only the alkalinity salts are actually weighed (there aren't any in this example), the other salts don't matter much (que ... !). I only showed the salt amounts to show Bru'n Water's indication that Mash salts have moved to the sparge/kettle (they turn orange from yellow!). Those amounts are still high ... I guess I've still a bit of modelling to do.

Anyway!

The pH is predicted as 5.31. If I put those "hardness" <sic!> minerals back in the mash, the pH prediction (and in reality too!) drops to 5.04. (And some samples drop to 4.7 ... and beyond! Though the predictions may keep dropping because they're outside the calculator's expected parameters; in reality there are limits where they'll stop).