Conical Users Large and Small: Do you even dump, bro?

[alphakry]

Does anyone do dumps at unusual times? I was thinking about some other opportune times for dumps and wondered if any were Harmful, Useful or Useless?

After Boil, Before Pitch Dump
Hypothesis: After the wort has had time to settle and chill a bit, the bottom section can be quite cloudy and filled with particulate and hops - depending on the success of your whirlpooling or spyders/filters. Would dumping at this stage help clear the wort further and remove potential off flavors & excessive bitterness? Harmful, Useful or Useless?

24-36 Hours into Active Fermentation
Hypothesis: After fermentation has kicked off and the yeasties are having a grand ol time moving around the wort, any dead and unviable yeast that has not yet moved its way off the bottom of the conical would only sit there as a risk of eventually causing undesirable flavors - especially if you have an extended rest period at the end of fermentation, be it due to your expected schedule or an unexpected life occurrence where the wort must sit on the yeast cake longer before packaging day. Harmful, Useful or Useless??

Prior to Dry Hopping
Hypothesis: This is a pretty standard period for a dump, after the yeast has done most or all of its job and it's time to add the hops. When harvesting yeast, ideally you should be dumping it at this stage to prevent any hops from mixing in with your yeast. But a few questions arise here as well:

• Do you cold crash first to get the most effective dump and then dry hop at cold temps?
• Do you dump @ current fermentation temps and take whatever is already waiting for you in that middle creamy, white yeasty layer?
• Do you not dump and harvest yeast despite dry hops?
• Do you not dump and not harvest yeast, letting whatever may still be active continue to clean up the wort and help scrub O2 & Diacetyl?

 

[Dland]

I'll throw my 2 cents in, I'm sure opinions on this vary, like everything else in this endeavor.

1, Dumping soon after boil, and cooling, before yeast; maybe helpful, but probably only if a lot of hot break trub got into fermentor.

2, After active fermentation starts; perhaps, but only if you did not dump hot break at step 1.

On the above two, I have tried dumping cold break also, but did not notice any difference from when I did not. Some say some break material is good for yeast nutrition, so leave it in, but I have not noticed any difference in that regard either.

3, I seldom dry hop, but in theory that is probably not a bad time to do it. When I do dump trub is when yeast activity has slowed, so I can get a gravity reading to time racking for best spunding results., also removes any excess dead yeast. I don't crash beforehand, as I need yeast active to spund carbonate and do a D rest if cold lager.

For what it is worth, usually re use yeast cake by leaving some yeasty beer in bottom of conical. I try to get most of the solids out during dump, there is always plenty of live yeast left to get things going if new wort is introduced within a week or so.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

If I take a sample from the side port and it's very cloudy I will dump some from the bottom cone otherwise I don't bother. To me that's one of the advantages of using a conical fermenter, a spot for the spent junk to settle in and not get into the transferred beer.

 

[Jmspears]

I did it early on just because I could. I’ve also done it to harvest yeast a few times. Usually would dump after primary fermentation finished up. I don’t bother anymore unless I want to reuse the yeast. I would definitely do it before dry hopping if I were to do it at all.

 

[hotbeer]

I suppose it depends too on what fermenter you have and how you plan on getting the beer out to bottle or keg it.

I dump when the trub and yeast look like they are settled and well packed. That sometimes requires several dumps, as I don't have a large collection jar to collect it all below the valve.

I bottle directly through the bottom of my conical. So dumping is necessary. The time I dump doesn't seem as important other than it makes no sense to dump when the trub is still being churned or is still fluffy from CO2 production.

I don't cold crash because I just choose to wait until the beer is clear and all the suspended stuff settled out. Sometimes that is about the time it takes to properly cold crash. Just 3 days later.

If you are getting the beer out some other way, then I'd ask why bother dumping at all.

 

[TLaffey]

I always dump before DH as I "burp" the tank with C02 from the bottom to mix the hops and don't want all that settled out gunk floating around again. Cold crash first? Yes, even if it's a "soft" crash to ~50*F instead of 32-34*F.

I don't do either of the other two, though I might consider a dump pre-pitch to remove more trub.

 

[oakbarn]

I have never dumped and never intend to.

 

[sibelman]

otherwise I don't bother.

I don’t bother anymore

I have never dumped and never intend to.

Comments like this were what convinced me that a Flex+ bucket, with its cone-shaped bottom, would meet my needs.

But that's just me. I'm glad that many conical owners feel it's valuable to be able to dump trub and/or harvest yeast with their fancier fermenters.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Comments like this were what convinced me that a Flex+ bucket, with its cone-shaped bottom, would meet my needs.

But that's just me. I'm glad that many conical owners feel it's valuable to be able to dump trub and/or harvest yeast with their fancier fermenters.

The Flex is a great alternative to a conical and serves basically the same purpose. I bought my conical before that was available.

 

[Jmspears]

The Flex is a great alternative to a conical and serves basically the same purpose. I bought my conical before that was available.

If I were to do it again, I’d probably just buy multiple flex fermenters for slightly more $$$

 

[DVCNick]

I first had an original Fermentasaurus with the dump ball... sounded good in theory; in practice it looked like a disaster waiting to happen, that I would never use:

-The neck in the original design was narrow and would almost always clog anyway (I know they redesigned this later)
-Even if the bottom valve doesn't leak, taking the dump ball off is going to make a monumental mess, especially with a pressure ferment, which is what I'm doing in it 9 times out of 10 anyway
-you can clean and sanitize the dump ball itself, but how are you going to do the same on the bottom of the fermenter when it's full?
-Any time after fermentation starts, removing and replacing the dump ball is going to lead to a large bubble of air going straight up through the beer.... oxidation.
-Taking it apart to clean everything when done, putting it back together, checking for leaks, yadda yadda

In the end, the dump ball was nothing but major downsides to me. I sold it and swapped to the ball-free "sub nose" model, which is also shorter and fits in a normal size kegerator if you want, on top of having a conical bottom but no dump ball, which is perfect in my opinion. I use them mainly for pressure lagers that I cold crash under pressure, and with the floating dip tube I can leave virtually no beer behind if needed. If I want to harvest yeast, I can dump it out the top after moving the beer to a serving keg.

 

[IDMaynard]

Very interesting thread, I agree with DVCNick on the dump ball problems, when I first saw on I thought, that is a train wreck waiting to happen. I use a 1/2" hose to dump the trub through and have had excellent results as I can control how fast the I release the material into a catch bucket, I always apply some head pressure (if I am not pressure fermenting already) to keep O2 out of the vessel.
I often dump after terminal gravity is reach, but dumping the cold break prior to yeast addition is something I have thought about to see if I can improve my flavor profiles.
I don't do a lot of dry hoping, but when I do I always dump any trub that has developed.

 

[micraftbeer]

I dump if I'm brewing an IPA that has a lot of kettle hops.

The first time I had a conical with a dump valve, I made an IPA, and decided I'd dump a couple times. Beer came out the best I've ever made.

Sure, it might not be related. And in theory I could experiment to see if it makes a difference. But once you have something that comes out exactly like you want it, there's little motivation to experiment to see if you can screw it up!

I dump towards the end of fermentation. And then again after dry hop after a soft crash, just before transferring via floating dip tube to a keg. Run through a hose into a pitcher until beer starts to come out clear.

 

[Broothru]

I dunno if I'm brewing an IPA that has a lot of kettle hops.

The first time I had a conical with a dump valve, I made an IPA, and decided I'd dump a couple times. Beer came out the best I've ever made.

Sure, it might not be related. And in theory I could experiment to see if it makes a difference. But once you have something that comes out exactly like you want it, there's little motivation to experiment to see if you can screw it up!

I dump towards the end of fermentation. And then again after dry hop after a soft crash, just before transferring via floating dip tube to a keg. Run through a hose into a pitcher until beer starts to come out clear.

Same here. Beer comes out just the way I like, and I’m able to harvest more healthy yeast than I’m ever able to use.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Here's my 2 cents...

1. After the boil, we're chilling with a counterflow chilller and going into the tank. It's usually 70F once all in the tank. We'll pressurize a bit and chill to desired pitch temp. We let it sit for ~6 hours to let all the cold break and any hop matter settle and then dump that, prior to pitching yeast. We'll pitch yeast and then oxygenate and let it go.

Before doing this, we had some issues with clarity. Once we switched to this method, our clarity game is incredible. I have read some things that state leaving cold break in the fermenter can cause clarity problems and since we made this switch, it's a night and day difference.

More anecdotally I suppose,, the other thing we've noticed, is when we go to do yeast dumps towards the end of fermentation, the amount of yeast and everything that comes out appears to have increased significantly. It's almost as if yeast settles out easier? Not really sure the science behind it.

I would say your After Boil, Before Pitch is Useful.

2. With lagers, we're dumping a little bit out of the bottom every day. Since opening our doors, we've made friends with a couple other brewers in our area and they say "shave the cone every day". We have started to do this but haven't done it enough to really pinpoint any differences yet.

I would also say your 24-36 hours post pitch would be Useful.

3. Prior to Dry Hopping - I almost think that's pretty common practice these days. Again, I would say that is Useful.

 

[ExpatPete]

Sorry to jump in late to this discussion but I have had a similar question. I have a FermZilla Tri-Conical Gen 3.2 fermenter with a floating dip tube. I am on my 4th brew with it and have been wondering if I should dump, and if so when. Since I have not yet started harvesting yeast, so far I have not dumped and still lean that way thinking that the floating tube will avoid the majority of the trub and yeast.

Thanks for the info and discussion!

 

[shoengine]

I don't dump until I clean. If I did dump I'd have to rack from the bottom valve as I already have a bunch of deadspace below the racking arm, of around a quart or so. I do use the dump valve for racking TO the fermentor. Since I don't reuse yeast right now I don't really see the value in dumping trub.

 

[Willy]

Great thread! I was going to ask this question as I am new to conical fermenters and so far I haven't dumped trub while fermenting.

Currently doing a pilsner and will try out the "shave the cone" method for bottom fermenting yeast.

 

[RyPA]

I do not harvest yeast and for this reason I chose the All Rounder over the Tri-Conical. One less opening/seal to worry about.

 

[corkybstewart]

I dump once, usually the morning after I brew. It's just to get the hop debris and other trub that came directly from the kettle.

 

[PCABrewing]

I dump once, usually the morning after I brew. It's just to get the hop debris and other trub that came directly from the kettle.

Likewise, I'll dump 1 - 2 days into fermentation just to get the trub that settles out first.
I've found that if I wait a week or more that sometimes the trub can get compacted and make the process more difficult. I could put a larger fitting on the dump valve and probably resolve that. I'd still dump at the same time though. Makes the yeast cleaner when I finally harvest, comes out like cream colored toothpaste .

 

[brechbräu]

This is a great thread. I’ve been trying to streamline and improve my process. I’ve been thinking about getting a Ss Brewtech Brew Bucket which doesn’t have a valve for dumping… seems like dumping might not be totally necessary…

 

[Yesfan]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say if you are planning on buying a stainless fermenter and don't really care about having a dump valve, why not just use a keg with a floating dip tube and save your money?

 

[sibelman]

keg with a floating dip tube

This is a popular fermenter solution. Advantages: a keg is stainless steel, inexpensive, allows pressure fermentation, and is very slender compared to bucket fermenters like the Flex and Brew Bucket. Downsides: smaller capacity because you need to leave headspace; and you can't use much in the way of accessories such as a thermowell or a "hop dropper" (for dry-hopping without opening the lid).

One minor thing: I miss the view I got with glass fermenters. My Flex+ allows a 4" window at the top, which gives a bit of visibility.

 

[RyPA]

I’ve been fermenting and serving from the same keg for 3 years. The downside is really just a loss in drinkable beer. You have to leave some headspace and you will end up with a few inches of trub at the bottom, so out of a 5 gallon keg, you probably get around 3.75-4 gallons of drinkable beer.

I picked up an All Rounder to increase my volume of finished beer.

 

[brechbräu]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say if you are planning on buying a stainless fermenter and don't really care about having a dump valve, why not just use a keg with a floating dip tube and save your money?

This is going to sound dumb, but can you describe the process and the supplementary equipment you need to ferment in a keg. I’ve seen people talking about this, but it is a totally new idea for me, having been out of the homebrew scene for the better part of 18 years or so…

 

[Broken Crow]

Downsides: smaller capacity because you need to leave headspace; and you can't use much in the way of accessories such as a thermowell or a "hop dropper" (for dry-hopping without opening the lid).

There are solutions to these...
Headspace: You can use a 6.5G corny; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/clawhammer-supply-6-5g-keg-fermenter.732899/
For dry hopping: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hopbongkit15.htm
and this TC-corny lid: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cornylidtc.htm
or you can use any size sanke (sans spear) with this 2" TC cap: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/sankeball.htm
or a DIY 2" TC 'Fermhead' that gives you an unrestricted krausen path without gunking up your gas post: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-fit-it-to-fermonster-sankey-whatever.704064/
..and a dry-hopping attachment: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...uring-dry-hopping.733425/page-2#post-10393417
There are almost as many ways to brew as there are homebrewers....just choose your comfort level...just sayin'


[Apologies if this is a double post.. I think I hit a glitch the first time I tried.]

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say if you are planning on buying a stainless fermenter and don't really care about having a dump valve, why not just use a keg with a floating dip tube and save your money?

The primary reason I'm not crazy about it is the lowered batch size and the fact that the floating diptube will often get hung up on the side of the keg during the transfer out due to the tight radius the hose has to bend to. What's worse is that I use a 6 gallon torpedo "megamouth" which not only affords a little more headspace and a slightly wider diameter to lessen both problems I described, but I still only get about 4.5 gallons into the serving keg.

The only time I use this setup is for dry hopped beers because I have a hop dropper I can put on top. Otherwise I use 7 gallon fermonsters.

 

[Yesfan]

This is a popular fermenter solution. Advantages: a keg is stainless steel, inexpensive, allows pressure fermentation, and is very slender compared to bucket fermenters like the Flex and Brew Bucket. Downsides: smaller capacity because you need to leave headspace; and you can't use much in the way of accessories such as a thermowell or a "hop dropper" (for dry-hopping without opening the lid).

One minor thing: I miss the view I got with glass fermenters. My Flex+ allows a 4" window at the top, which gives a bit of visibility.

I also have a Flex+ (and CF-10). I agree with all the above as I have WAY tons head space with those vs my corny kegs. That being said, I do like the trade off I have with not having to deal with transfers, especially since I've been doing smaller batches (2.5). I also have the clear caps for both of my Spike vessels, and I quit using mine. I would get condensation from the active part of fermentation, so I had all these bubbles in the way to where I couldn't see the yeasties working their magic. They also didn't seal as well as the stainless caps.

This is going to sound dumb, but can you describe the process and the supplementary equipment you need to ferment in a keg. I’ve seen people talking about this, but it is a totally new idea for me, having been out of the homebrew scene for the better part of 18 years or so…

Not dumb at all. Basically just swap out the main dip tube on the liquid side with a floating version and add a spunding valve. The spunding valve lets you ferment under a desired pressure (15psi for me) and a floating dip tube lets you draw beer from the top vs the bottom where all the trub would be resulting in clearer beer. Since I ferment under pressure and I'm brewing small batches, I can take advantage of not having to transfer to a serving vessel and deal with carbing up the batch. A somewhat faster turnaround time and one less vessel to clean. On my kegs, I also swapped out the pressure release valves for ones that are lower pressured as the standard grey ones vent at 100psi. I swapped mine out with red ones that vent at 35psi. Still a bit high, but that's what was available for me at the time.

The primary reason I'm not crazy about it is the lowered batch size and the fact that the floating diptube will often get hung up on the side of the keg during the transfer out due to the tight radius the hose has to bend to. What's worse is that I use a 6 gallon torpedo "megamouth" which not only affords a little more headspace and a slightly wider diameter to lessen both problems I described, but I still only get about 4.5 gallons into the serving keg.

The only time I use this setup is for dry hopped beers because I have a hop dropper I can put on top. Otherwise I use 7 gallon fermonsters.

I totally get that. That is a definite con. I've had a couple of batches where the dip tube was blowing co2. I've added a SS washer for weight for the current two batches I have going. We'll see how that plays out. As mentioned, I've been on a small batch kick. Doing one vessel for fermenting and serving hasn't impacted me much since I'm a solo drinker and I've been brewing less than 5 gallons. Weird you're only netting 4.5 gallons from the Megamouths. I would expect at least 5 for those kegs. They look pretty beefy.

 

[RyPA]

@Bobby_M, how are you losing that much volume?

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

One minor thing: I miss the view I got with glass fermenters. My Flex+ allows a 4" window at the top, which gives a bit of visibility.

Slightly off topic but are the conicus fermenters available in the states yet? I think they're Czech.

€600 for a unitank with a window. €700 for the 50l version. If I hadn't already bought a brew monk conical I'd probably get one of these.

Back on topic, I've never dumped but I hear I must do it before adding fruit to the fermenter. Anyone have any advice on this?

 

[Bobby_M]

@Bobby_M, how are you losing that much volume?

Primarily wrestling between stopping the floating diptube from sucking CO2 getting caught up on the side and jostling the keg to stop it. That solution causes more sediment and hop material to mix back in with the beer and I finally decide to cut my loses and not dump a ton of trub into the serving keg. A floating diptube in something like the all rounder at least allows you to visually see where the open tube is grabbing the beer from and when it's about to hit sediment. In a keg, you're running blind and I don't think I ever maximized my yield.

 

[micraftbeer]

I've tried several different floating dip tubes. The first ones that just had the ball and a little stainless loop holding the end of the silicone tube were a nightmare. Multiple incidents of what @Bobby_M described. I wasted time monkeying around with hanging different things on it to keep it submerged, but nothing was reliable.

I tried the Flotit 2.0 for a hands on review and they have been beautiful. The key is the silicone tube end is offset from center of the float. As a result, the tube always sits under the beer level. They've got some different screens and stuff that go on there, I suppose they work because I don't get any hop debris clogging my ball lock poppits. But the key is the offset float. Never had an issue since changing to that in my keg.

I've also had good luck with the Kegland version that has the little "shark cage" attached to the end and uses the normal spherical ball. Must be just the right weight, plus it controls where the tube opening sits.

 

[PCABrewing]

Slightly off topic but are the conicus fermenters available in the states yet? I think they're Czech.

€600 for a unitank with a window. €700 for the 50l version. If I hadn't already bought a brew monk conical I'd probably get one of these.

Back on topic, I've never dumped but I hear I must do it before adding fruit to the fermenter. Anyone have any advice on this?

Wow! that thing has a lot of ports.

 

[micraftbeer]

Wow! that thing has a lot of ports.

I saw the picture and immediately thought- oh what a pain to clean all those joints and assemble/disassemble them every time...

 

[sibelman]

conicus fermenters available in the states yet? I think they're Czech.

Seems to be Danish. So many ports! I've seen no U.S. availability.

 

[odie]

I ferment in the keg. I get a full 5 gallons without issue.

I use the standard/basic floating tube and place a large SS nut or fender washer over the middle of the tube to keep it properly submerged.

I use low PSI PRV valves (blue-10psi, purple-15psi, red-25psi) or a blowoff tube as needed.

Not sure why the big deal on head space? A corny hold 5.25+ gal. I use a blow off for hefe and the blow off is not that much.

 

[Broothru]

Seems to be Danish. So many ports! I've seen no U.S. availability.
View attachment 866829

That 30L fermenter looks like a beast! At 600 Euros, not really a bargain, but I can easily see the attraction. The website shows a lot of accessories and package deals that cover every piece of gear from mash tun to fermentation chamber. Their AIO mash/boil device looks amazingly like a rebranded Grain Father 30, as does the HLT. 4" TC cap and floating dip tube are identical to the BrewBuilt ones, only missing the logo. The tank itself looks to be a fresh design, with many parts and accessories 'borrowed' from other worldwide sources.

The modular fermentation chamber appears to have a Peltier-type chiller, so if it's anything like the old Brew Jacket setup, it probably will be a weak substitute for glycol systems. But that tank! I could be tempted, if I was in the market.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

I saw the picture and immediately thought- oh what a pain to clean all those joints and assemble/disassemble them every time...

I brew with a buddy who has an SS brewtech unitank. The cip works like a charm but yes all ports need to be taken down and dealt with but it's nearly the same work for one port as it is for five.

I mean, the whole thing about Tri clamps is they're designed to be exposed to a thorough cleaning so as to be sanitary as possible.

Each to their own and if you have the space and inclination for it I don't see why not but I also understand how people would be put off by it.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

The tank itself looks to be a fresh design, with many parts and accessories 'borrowed' from other worldwide sources.

The European Kegland