Confusing Question on Hop Utilization

[zeptrey]

I decided to do a basic Amber and do some experimentation on late additions of DME. I had on hand 1 oz of 10.5 AAU Centennial and 0.5 oz of 4.5 AAU Tettnang...just what I had around. Anyway, the recipe I had available ready to roll in BrewTarget said that the recipe only called for the .5 oz of Centennial. Instead I pitched the full ounce of centennial and the half ounce of tettnang. I added 3 Lbs of Amber DME at the start of the boil along with the hops. 1 Lb of Pilsner Light DME at 30 and the last 3 Lbs of Amber at the last 15. I didn't realize until everything was in the fermenter that I had added the full ounce of centennial. I didn't worry it said that my brew was at 45-47 IBU (after the full ounce addition) versus 30 IBU.

However, I then realized this am that my brewtarget didn't have the batch size set right. I did a 3 Gallon partial boil versus a full 6.25 Gallon boil.

So I say all that to say...wtf...where am I realistically looking at on the IBU chart? I know the late additions bump up the IBUs a bit, I also know that partial boils tone down the IBUs a bit, and I know that we are the third planet from the sun...so...? I'm not really worried at all should be good brew either way, but I've been thinking about it all day and its bugging me.

 

[Ster]

Assuming you boiled hops for 60 min, and assuning you used hop pellets:
According to Brewers Friend Android app:
OG = 1.050
FG = 1.014
IBU = 23.83

It won't be nearly as bitter as you hoped, but sounds very tastey to me.

 

[reed1911]

FWIW I would simply wait to add the DME and LME at the last 10 minutes to flameout. You don't gain anything by adding any sooner. By adding them in the boil before that you only darken the brew overall. Simply do your steep or partial mash, follow you hop schedule, and add the LME/DME right at the end mix in well and then cool.

 

[Ster]

I have heard people agree with Reed, and I've heard others say that you should have at least 1 pound of extract per gallon of boil before adding any hops, and add the rest @ flameout.

 

[zeptrey]

I have heard people agree with Reed, and I've heard others say that you should have at least 1 pound of extract per gallon of boil before adding any hops, and add the rest @ flameout.

Thats kind of what I was testing. The light DME I have heard that you at least need a 30 minunte boil to ward of DMS and then cool down the wort as quick as possible after boil. At least thats what I got out of the last BrewStrong session I caught. And I have also heard you need 1/4 to half of the total extract to help with hop isomerization, and since it was a whole bunch of DME instead of LME on flameout wouldn't work...3 lbs at the last 15 minutes almost wasn't enough time to fully incorporate all the DME.

I'm not a hop head for sure...but thats pretty mellow by any standards. Should still be good though.

 

[reed1911]

You certainly cannot boil just water with the hops, indeed you need something to have the proper environment for the wort, 1lb/gal is about right and at that concentration you will not carmalize the LME/DME enough to notice a difference. Also, you will find you totally get rig of the boil over problem associated with boiling 5-6lbs of LME/DME. I should have been a little more specific, not everyone can read my brain (thank god)

 

[Geordan]

...The light DME I have heard that you at least need a 30 minunte boil to ward of DMS and then cool down the wort as quick as possible after boil. At least thats what I got out of the last BrewStrong session I caught. ...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I always understood the risk of DMS, even from pils based malts, was greatly reduced using DME, as most of the SMM would have been driven off by the process of creating the extract itself. Does anyone have a link to some more concrete info?

 

[peterj]

You don't really need to worry about DMS with extract. The precursors to DMS have been removed during the extract processing.

And you also don't really get increased hop utilization through late additions of extract. The connection between gravity and hop utilization is due to the iso-alpha acids adhering to the hot break and other proteins and things from the grain. The higher the gravity, the more of these things are in the wort, and the more iso-alpha acids will stick to them. But, most of these proteins and hot break are removed from extract during the processing as well.

When I used to brew extract, I would add most of it at flameout to help start cooling the wort. It really only needs to be sanitized which doesn't require boiling. It's boiled during processing.

 

[Yooper]

I do think you need some extract in the beginning, although not that much. One pound of extract or so per gallon of liquid boiled is a good number.

The reason is that while you will certainly extract bitterness with just water and hops (a "hop tea" so to speak), some recent studies I've read point to a lowered quality of bitterness in just water vs a relatively low OG wort boil. I am at work and can't put my finger on the relevent websites/links right now but I can look later tonight probably when I get home.

 

[zeptrey]

You don't really need to worry about DMS with extract. The precursors to DMS have been removed during the extract processing.

And you also don't really get increased hop utilization through late additions of extract. The connection between gravity and hop utilization is due to the iso-alpha acids adhering to the hot break and other proteins and things from the grain. The higher the gravity, the more of these things are in the wort, and the more iso-alpha acids will stick to them. But, most of these proteins and hot break are removed from extract during the processing as well.

When I used to brew extract, I would add most of it at flameout to help start cooling the wort. It really only needs to be sanitized which doesn't require boiling. It's boiled during processing.

I thought this as well, but from what I understand in the processing for the DME/LME is that the really only boil to sanitize the extract and then the do a low temp pressurized boil which doesn't full drive off DMS. I'll have to find that episode of BrewStrong and post it on here. Jamil and Palmer were talking pretty heavily about DMS in both All Grain and Extract batches and boil times and cooling times. They sum up the difference between All Grain and Extract at about 1 hr mark. They actually say to do a full 1 hr boil even if you use Extract for pilsner type malts and All Grain 90 min boil. The full episode goes into depth on the issue.

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_DMS03-09-09.mp3

 

[peterj]

I thought this as well, but from what I understand in the processing for the DME/LME is that the really only boil to sanitize the extract and then the do a low temp pressurized boil which doesn't full drive off DMS. I'll have to find that episode of BrewStrong and post it on here. Jamil and Palmer were talking pretty heavily about DMS in both All Grain and Extract batches and boil times and cooling times. They sum up the difference between All Grain and Extract at about 1 hr mark. They actually say to do a full 1 hr boil even if you use Extract for pilsner type malts and All Grain 90 min boil. The full episode goes into depth on the issue.

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_DMS03-09-09.mp3

That's interesting, I'll have to give it a listen. I really like their podcasts.

 

[Yooper]

I thought this as well, but from what I understand in the processing for the DME/LME is that the really only boil to sanitize the extract and then the do a low temp pressurized boil which doesn't full drive off DMS. I'll have to find that episode of BrewStrong and post it on here. Jamil and Palmer were talking pretty heavily about DMS in both All Grain and Extract batches and boil times and cooling times. They sum up the difference between All Grain and Extract at about 1 hr mark. They actually say to do a full 1 hr boil even if you use Extract for pilsner type malts and All Grain 90 min boil. The full episode goes into depth on the issue.

http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/bs_DMS03-09-09.mp3

I've heard that episode. But.......I've never ONCE heard of any extract brewers that have done a short boil and had DMS as a result. Or even "no boil"- there are people who don't boil LME or DME at all.

I haven't even tasted many AG beers in competition that have DMS issues. Even in AG brewing, DMS isn't all that common.

I also think it's very rare to use 100% pilsner extract. I don't even know if they sell one that is 100% pilsner, but maybe Briess has one that is 90% pilsner malt.

I think to boil all of the extract to avoid DMS is chasing a bogeyman that doesn't exist. I have a ton of respect for Palmer and Jamil- but they aren't correct here if thousands of brewers that I personally know have done this. Adding extract late in the boil is a relatively new concept- about 2007 or so for me anyway. Maybe they haven't kept pace with results, and are talking in theoretical terms.

 

[zeptrey]

I've heard that episode. But.......I've never ONCE heard of any extract brewers that have done a short boil and had DMS as a result. Or even "no boil"- there are people who don't boil LME or DME at all.

I haven't even tasted many AG beers in competition that have DMS issues. Even in AG brewing, DMS isn't all that common.

I also think it's very rare to use 100% pilsner extract. I don't even know if they sell one that is 100% pilsner, but maybe Briess has one that is 90% pilsner malt.

I think to boil all of the extract to avoid DMS is chasing a bogeyman that doesn't exist. I have a ton of respect for Palmer and Jamil- but they aren't correct here if thousands of brewers that I personally know have done this. Adding extract late in the boil is a relatively new concept- about 2007 or so for me anyway. Maybe they haven't kept pace with results, and are talking in theoretical terms.

Like I said initially I was kind of doing this batch as a little experimentation anyway with late additions and times, and it wound up being a whole different type of experiment and experience for me with hops. What floats ones boat may not for someone else. I'm not going to argue that DMS may not be a big issue, but why risk it? I didn't really use all that much Pilsner extract anyway. I like talking beer btw. That last batch of brew made for some pretty interesting discussion imo.

Going back to the late additions thing. Since I did all DME and like 7 Lbs of it, any one else have issues with fully incorporating the extract in their batch when adding on flame out? I am kind of glad I did the last 3 lbs with 15 min left to go. It took me about 10 minutes of constant stirring to fully incorporate the DME.

 

[reed1911]

If you will plan ahead a little, grab some of the hot wort and mix the DME with it on the side to get it all dissolve, then add the now LME at flame-out. Helps keep the DME from making those little clumps that take FOREVER to dissolve.

 

[zeptrey]

If you will plan ahead a little, grab some of the hot wort and mix the DME with it on the side to get it all dissolve, then add the now LME at flame-out. Helps keep the DME from making those little clumps that take FOREVER to dissolve.

Good idea but for 4 lbs of dme? That takes up a lot or most of your wort. I get why you would want to add at flameout but is adding the last 4 lbs of dme at the last 15 minutes of the boil going to make that much of a difference? For a small amount of dme this very useful tip though. Thanks.

 

[reed1911]

If you let it sit the ratio is about 1/4C hot water to 1C DME. I can fit 2lbs of DME in my 4C pyrex measuring cup and water to let it turn to LME, so a 2qt sauce pan will handle your 4lbs with ease.

The time issue is not what I was aiming at, it was the 15 minutes of stirring I was getting rid of as well as hot side airation if you stir too vigorously.

 

[zeptrey]

Just a follow up...its pretty darn hoppy. Right around 40-45 IBU the way it tastes to me anyway. A little hoppier than I was hoping for. I ran all the calculations in Brewtarget and it says it should be right around 39-40 IBUs. Its still a great beer, but all my buddies and wife like the maltier German style brews and I love those as well. So, it looks like I'll be drinking this batch alone...so sad... I still get a nice malty taste and smell, but the hops finish it off very well. It is really a pretty darn good brew. First beer I've kegged in the new keezer as well.