confused about making chemical-free sweet cider

[reynardthefox]

hello all
i've done a whole lot of reading on how to eliminate the yeast during secondary without chemicals. so far, i have cold crashed, 3 times racking and still some of them buggers start eating my sugar. i have read about pasteurization being done when carbonating but what if i don't care for carbing or worried about my cider getting cloudy, can i heat my bottles in 180F water and kill the yeast? what am i not understanding here?
second question: since i only have access to one type of yeast and normally, it can tolerate a certain amount of alcohol, can i add more sugar than it can eat? how do i calculate it?

i'd appreciate any help i can get

 

[bmd2k1]

What yeast are you using??

My go-to for Most of my ciders is S04. I typically go 7days in primary...cold crash for 2 days in fridge...then rack back into 1gal containers and toss in fridge with whatever flavors I add...(tart cherry, blueberry concentrates, Concord Grape Juice frozen concentrate, cinnamon sticks -- and soon to try pineapple juice frozen concentrate.)

There seems to be very minimal yeast left.....because I get a nice carb and the ciders stay semi-sweet...just how I like em. I also sometimes will toss some in bottles for transport etc....from the 1gal containers. I use ZERO chemicals or nutrients.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I thought "everything" is a chemical? What's one more if it does the trick?

 

[mj1angier]

Yes, you can feed it till it dies. Kind of what the old guys did when they made home made wine. But it may be stronger than what taste good. And it does depend on how much alc. the yeast can handle. Down and dirty way is to feed sugar/ juice over a few days till the SG stops dropping. Again it might just taste like sweet alcohol, very one note

 

[diyHardCider]

What yeast are you using??

My go-to for Most of my ciders is S04. I typically go 7days in primary...cold crash for 2 days in fridge...then rack back into 1gal containers and toss in fridge with whatever flavors I add...(tart cherry, blueberry concentrates, Concord Grape Juice frozen concentrate, cinnamon sticks -- and soon to try pineapple juice frozen concentrate.)

There seems to be very minimal yeast left.....because I get a nice carb and the ciders stay semi-sweet...just how I like em. I also sometimes will toss some in bottles for transport etc....from the 1gal containers. I use ZERO chemicals or nutrients.

What gives it the 'nice carb'? It has to be remaining yeast eating the original or added sugar... yeah?

 

[diyHardCider]

hello all
i've done a whole lot of reading on how to eliminate the yeast during secondary without chemicals. so far, i have cold crashed, 3 times racking and still some of them buggers start eating my sugar. i have read about pasteurization being done when carbonating but what if i don't care for carbing or worried about my cider getting cloudy, can i heat my bottles in 180F water and kill the yeast? what am i not understanding here?
second question: since i only have access to one type of yeast and normally, it can tolerate a certain amount of alcohol, can i add more sugar than it can eat? how do i calculate it?

i'd appreciate any help i can get

Depending on what you categorize as a 'chemical', you can use non-fermentable sugars/sweeteners. Sugar alcohols such as xylitol and sorbitol, or natural sweeteners like truvia or stevia. Artificial sweeteners like splenda or equal give a bad aftertaste (in my opinion), and would likely not fit your 'no chemicals' requirement.

There is a sticky comment about bottle pastuerization... very detailed. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/

Also, it's a bit of an aside, but I'm confused by the 'only have access to one type of yeast'... even if you don't have a local homebrew store... if you are posting on this forum, you must have the internet... lots of is yeast available from tons of eCommerce sites (amazon and many others).

 

[Kent88]

Here is an only partially thought-out idea.

Get some cleanish, empty bottles, your biggest kettle, a thermometer, a stopwatch, and some safety glasses (hey, by the way, I'm not liable if a bottle explodes). Fill up your bottles with water but don't cap them. Keep them in the same space as your cider until you are sure the temperatures are the same. Fill the kettle up with enough water to almost completely immerse a bottle (or a few) that is standing upright in the kettle. Heat the water in the kettle on the stove to boiling. Put your safety glasses on. Start standing some of the open water-filled bottles (1-3 at a time) in the kettle, start the stopwatch, and keep a close eye on the temperature. When that/those bottle(s) reach 161F (or maybe it is 180F, I'm not 100% sure), stop that stopwatch, add 16 seconds to it, and record that. Then pretty much repeat the process with the capped cider bottles, put them in the kettle, wait as long as it took before, and pull them out.

And hopefully nothing explodes. Again, I'm not liable if something explodes and injures someone. You could've just used campden tables, so don't blame me.

 

[bmd2k1]

What gives it the 'nice carb'? It has to be remaining yeast eating the original or added sugar... yeah?

Yep...some residual yeast.

 

[Setsumi]

I asked an oldtimer once how to stop fermatation. Kill it with cheap vodka he said. I asked how it will taste? He just asked me to pour him a double brandy with stoney gingerbeer as mix... I havent tried either yet.

 

[bleme]

I saw a thread a few years back about a guy who used CO2 to push his beer from one keg, through a filter, into another keg to get rid of all the yeast.

 

[JimRausch]

There's the stovetop pasteurization thread, which works well for many. The method I use is also somewhere in the forum, but not stickied. It's the cooler method, and I find it a lot easier and very effective. Basically, put the bottles in a cooler, and add hot tap water to precondition the bottles. Meanwhile heat about 3 G of water to 170. Drain the tap water and add the 170. Leave it for 10 minutes and drain. Results in a perfectly clear cider of whatever sweetness level you wanted.

 

[reynardthefox]

Update: thanks everybody for all the useful tips. that stovetop pasteurization sounds interesting.
also to answer the questions about my yeast, i live in an alcohol-banned country and only have access to baker's yeast. sorry, should have clarified sooner.

the reason for my frustration was that i couldn't find any chemicals here but today i finally got my hands on a pound of potassium sorbate. gotta start looking into how to use it.
cheers

 

[homebrewer_99]

Update: thanks everybody for all the useful tips. that stovetop pasteurization sounds interesting.
also to answer the questions about my yeast, i live in an alcohol-banned country and only have access to baker's yeast. sorry, should have clarified sooner.

the reason for my frustration was that i couldn't find any chemicals here but today i finally got my hands on a pound of potassium sorbate. gotta start looking into how to use it.
cheers

You know, if you just want still (non-carbonated) cider you could use 1 gal jugs and a stopper and your issues would go away.

 

[reynardthefox]

You know, if you just want still (non-carbonated) cider you could use 1 gal jugs and a stopper and your issues would go away.

i do prefer still cider and if you check my profile photo, i do have the jugs and a blow-off system. my intention is to stop fermentation or somehow achieve a semi-sweet cider. how would the sorbate help me in this considering that i prefer not to backsweeten? can i pasteurise or cold crash, then add sorbate?
appreciate your help

 

[homebrewer_99]

I like still cider also.

You can use potassium sorbate (PS) any time during the fermentation process to stop further fermentation. This would help you attain your goal.

(FYI: The only way to carbonate cider that's been stabilized (PS) is by force carbing it in a keg).

If you wish to use the active yeast for another batch I would rack the cider into a new jug and PS it there.

 

[bernardsmith]

I like still cider also.

You can use potassium sorbate (PS) any time during the fermentation process to stop further fermentation. This would help you attain your goal.

(FYI: The only way to carbonate cider that's been stabilized (PS) is by force carbing it in a keg).

If you wish to use the active yeast for another batch I would rack the cider into a new jug and PS it there.

Right... but have you actually tried to stop an active fermentation using sorbate? Did it work? The sorbate latches on to each cell and if the biomass is too large there is not enough sorbate to bind to the yeast. All it takes is a few good cells and you have repopulated your wine or cider. They bud faster than rabbits.

 

[Drewed]

The best, surefire way to stop yeast to to heat them above 140. I stove top pasteurize naturally carbonated cider in crown capped beer bottles all them time.
1. Fill large kettle with capped bottles to be pasteurized. Place one empty bottle in the middle with no cap on it.
2. Fill middle bottle with cold tap water and allow tap water to over flow the bottle and up to the level of the cider in the bottles. You don't want floating bottles
3. Insert temp probe into uncapped bottle
4. Turn on the stove.
5. Place lid on kettle as best as you can. This is a safety step in case you go space commando and forget what you are doing and over heat.
6. When the temp of the water in the middle bottle is 140, check a few other places in between bottles. They should all read over 140.
7. Turn off the heat and let it sit for at least 10 min. The longer the better.
8. Remove bottles carefully and allow to cool. Best is to let them cool to room temp in the pot, but that can take hours.

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

The best, surefire way to stop yeast to to heat them above 140. I stove top pasteurize naturally carbonated cider in crown capped beer bottles all them time.
1. Fill large kettle with capped bottles to be pasteurized. Place one empty bottle in the middle with no cap on it.
2. Fill middle bottle with cold tap water and allow tap water to over flow the bottle and up to the level of the cider in the bottles. You don't want floating bottles
3. Insert temp probe into uncapped bottle
4. Turn on the stove.
5. Place lid on kettle as best as you can. This is a safety step in case you go space commando and forget what you are doing and over heat.
6. When the temp of the water in the middle bottle is 140, check a few other places in between bottles. They should all read over 140.
7. Turn off the heat and let it sit for at least 10 min. The longer the better.
8. Remove bottles carefully and allow to cool. Best is to let them cool to room temp in the pot, but that can take hours.

I assume you backsweeten and bottle-carbonate in one step. How much time do you give the yeast to do the carbonation?

 

[homebrewer_99]

N

Right... but have you actually tried to stop an active fermentation using sorbate? Did it work? The sorbate latches on to each cell and if the biomass is too large there is not enough sorbate to bind to the yeast. All it takes is a few good cells and you have repopulated your wine or cider. They bud faster than rabbits.

No, I haven't tried it because I prefer my cider to ferment out. Logic dictates that if PS can stop new fermentation then there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to stop active fermentation.

 

[Maylar]

N


No, I haven't tried it because I prefer my cider to ferment out. Logic dictates that if PS can stop new fermentation then there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to stop active fermentation.

The effectiveness of sorbate is a function of the yeast biomass (cell count). After fermentation is complete and you've racked off the lees the amount of yeast remaining is minimal, sorbate can prevent the remaining yeast from budding. But an active ferment has millions of yeast cells and the amount of sorbate required to neutralize them would leave the cider tasting like crap.

 

[homebrewer_99]

The effectiveness of sorbate is a function of the yeast biomass (cell count). After fermentation is complete and you've racked off the lees the amount of yeast remaining is minimal, sorbate can prevent the remaining yeast from budding. But an active ferment has millions of yeast cells and the amount of sorbate required to neutralize them would leave the cider tasting like crap.

OK...

 

[Drewed]

I assume you backsweeten and bottle-carbonate in one step. How much time do you give the yeast to do the carbonation?

Yep, both in one step. Time depends on the yeast and temperature. I have a gauge in a screw top plastic bottle. When the gauge reads the pressure I want, I pasteurize.

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

Yep, both in one step. Time depends on the yeast and temperature. I have a gauge in a screw top plastic bottle. When the gauge reads the pressure I want, I pasteurize.

Really interesting idea. Two follow up questions if you don't mind

1. What gauge do you use? As I understand, you basically put the gauge in one of your batch and wait for the target pressure.

2. I have never looked at any of the expansion coefficients, etc., but I would guess that as you pasteurize a carbonated drink, the pressure will climb well above where you want it - are hot bottle bombs a practical concern? I guess that is why you only go to 140 deg F, but have a long sit time.

 

[Maylar]

Really interesting idea. Two follow up questions if you don't mind

1. What gauge do you use? As I understand, you basically put the gauge in one of your batch and wait for the target pressure.

2. I have never looked at any of the expansion coefficients, etc., but I would guess that as you pasteurize a carbonated drink, the pressure will climb well above where you want it - are hot bottle bombs a practical concern? I guess that is why you only go to 140 deg F, but have a long sit time.

You might be interested in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/cider-carbonation-experiments.513435/#post-6649065

 

[Miraculix]

Really interesting idea. Two follow up questions if you don't mind

1. What gauge do you use? As I understand, you basically put the gauge in one of your batch and wait for the target pressure.

2. I have never looked at any of the expansion coefficients, etc., but I would guess that as you pasteurize a carbonated drink, the pressure will climb well above where you want it - are hot bottle bombs a practical concern? I guess that is why you only go to 140 deg F, but have a long sit time.

A gauge is o obviously more advanced, but there is also a quick and dirty route to go.

Just fill up one pet plastic bottle when botteling and squeeze it every day till it feels hard enough. Then, pasteurize. Did this once, worked well.

 

[DownstairsBrewing]

You might be interested in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/cider-carbonation-experiments.513435/#post-6649065

That is quite the cautionary note. On the other hand, we are not truly looking to pasteurize, in that we care about a very specific micro-organism rather than intending to guarantee all of them are gone. A process as low as 117F could be enough to eliminate yeast.

 

[Maylar]

That is quite the cautionary note. On the other hand, we are not truly looking to pasteurize, in that we care about a very specific micro-organism rather than intending to guarantee all of them are gone. A process as low as 117F could be enough to eliminate yeast.

True. And if you read the stove top pasteurizing sticky you'll see that over time the target temperature has gradually been lowered. I think 140°F is the current consensus for effective "pasteurizing". When I wrote that thread, it was 170-180 and people were getting bottle bombs regularly.

 

[Kent88]

So, just in case you're still around @reynardthefox , where are you in trying this out?

 

[reynardthefox]

So, just in case you're still around @reynardthefox , where are you in trying this out?

hi, I'm sorry for replying so late. to answer your question, I've made a few ciders since then and don't worry about such details anymore.
i now have acquired a taste for normal still cider. i just juice my apples, add yeast, go through both ferment stages, forget about it for a while, then bottle. clear, golden, tasty cider.
cheers and thank you all for teaching me so much. i now consider myself a successful home-brewer

 

[Hatman]

Hi, I’m a complete novice wanting to turn my pasteurized pressed organic cider into alcoholic beverage. Don’t want anything fancy. Have hardly any equipment (4x 1gallon glass jugs, 4x stoppers, 4x airlocks, 1x 125mls Wyeast 4184 liquid yeast smack pack). Don’t want chemicals introduced. Don’t want acronyms or abbreviations. Love the idea of cold ferment but don’t know if I can achieve that being in central oregon’s high desert. Would prefer non-white sugar recipe if possible. Don’t want carbonated end product. Therefore looking for simple. Am diligent. Waited a week for recommended cleaner, and a further week when I read my campden tablets weren’t a sterilizer (only reason I bought them ), so waited another week for recommended sterilizer to arrive - and will sterilize everything before I start. Did I mention simple recipe / tips needed lol. Thank you so much

 

[jseyfert3]

Simple and not adding anything:

Sanitize your airlocks, drain a cup or two of cider from each bottle, add yeast, add airlock, done. This is literally all you have to do. In a few weeks you'll have cider. Better if you let it sit for longer though.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Hatman - and welcome. Just be sure that there are no added preservatives to the juice to inhibit fermentation. They work and you will have a hard time (at the best of times) to ferment such apple juice. But in fact, if there is no added preservative you may not even need to pitch any yeast as there will be enough yeast indigenous to the juice for the juice to self ferment if you leave it out at room temperature.

 

[jseyfert3]

But in fact, if there is no added preservative you may not even need to pitch any yeast as there will be enough yeast indigenous to the juice for the juice to self ferment if you leave it out at room temperature.

The OP listed pasturized juice, so there wouldn't be any natural yeast left, but if they can find unpasteurized preservative free they could.

I mean I suppose you can leave anything out and it will get natural yeast from the air, but it may not be the natural yeast you want.

Fresh pressed, no added yeast cider is something I'd like to try. I need to locate an orchard that has cider apples for this fall.

 

[Hatman]

Simple and not adding anything:

Sanitize your airlocks, drain a cup or two of cider from each bottle, add yeast, add airlock, done. This is literally all you have to do. In a few weeks you'll have cider. Better if you let it sit for longer though.

Thanks for this - it sounds unbelievably simple! One question... With 3 gallons of juice in 3 different jugs how much yeast is ideal? Should I get a hydrometer for this or can I leave that till I try more complicated techniques

 

[jseyfert3]

Thanks for this - it sounds unbelievably simple

It is. I'm a newbie, my fermentation/brew log is only up to batch #4, but cider is ridiculously easy. I've made 3 batches of cider and one extract beer kit. The beer is a mild pain, but not the cider.

In my case my first two batches were almost 6 gallons (in 6 gallon carboys), my last one I dialed back to 5.5 gallons for extra headspace as I almost had krausen coming out the airlock on a previous batch. Plus I switched from Montrachet campaign yeast to S-04 ale yeast and as I understand the krausen will be higher.

My first two cider batches I used cheap juice and added ~2 lbs sugar per batch, which worked out to ~7.3% ABV. My batch yesterday I decided to do with no added sugar to see how that tastes and with an IG of 1.046 it should be ~5.2% ABV. Then I'm going to do a batch today targeting 8% ABV with the same yeast (S-04) used on the no sugar batch, to compare for myself how the taste goes away as the ABV is cranked up.

For my batch I did yesterday, my process was

1. Sanitize the 6 gallon carboy and associated equipment (hydrometer, turkey baster for taking a sample for hydrometer, funnel, measuring cup, stopper and airlock, yeast packet and scissors for good measure cause I had star-san in a spray bottle)
2. Pour 5.5 gallons of juice into carboy, purposely pouring on the side of the funnel so it swirled which helped to have it spread out as it fell to oxygenate the juice a bit.
3. Use turkey baster to draw a sample to get IG (initial gravity) reading.
4. Pour (dry) yeast onto surface of juice.
5. Add airlock.
6. Move downstairs.

This is what it looks like as of a few minutes ago:

One question... With 3 gallons of juice in 3 different jugs how much yeast is ideal?

I thought you had 4 gallons of juice? In any case, usually a package of yeast is good for about 5-6 gallons. To some extent more yeast is better, I don't know where more is too much though. Likely you can just split the package between the bottles.

Should I get a hydrometer for this or can I leave that till I try more complicated techniques

You need a hydrometer if you want to estimate how much alcohol the juice might make before fermenting starts, or if you want to calculate the actual ABV produced. Also useful to check if fermentation is done, but you can just let it sit for a while (which is good anyway for cider) if you don't have a hydrometer. It's not required to have one though.

Oh, and one last step for you: Once you pour off that two cups of juice, re-cap and shake the bottle to oxygenate the juice prior to adding the yeast. Also note two cups is my estimate for sufficient headspace, I have not (yet) done a one gallon batch of cider.