Conflicting information from here and LHBS (or I'm just confused)

[Ksosh]

Hi all,

I'm brewing my first batch, a Scotch Ale 70 from a boxed kit, and I am a little confused on how long it should stay in the primary. I'm not using a secondary (going straight to bottle conditioning).

The instructions that came in the box are pretty vague for when it is done fermenting:

The bubbling will slow down and after a couple days eventually stop. When the fermentation is complete, you are ready to bottle...

To me, this sounds like the beer should be in the primary for about a week, which was confirmed by my LHBS. He also said that the plastic buckets aren't made for long term fermenting, and if I read that I should do the long term fermenting in the primary, I misunderstood/misread/was mistaken/etc.

I'm not really in a hurry to bottle, but what should I be using as the 'time to bottle' guideline:
-Checking the gravity for the right range, and bottling when it reaches it (what if it hangs for a few days, but isn't in range?)
-Give it a week, and if the bubbles don't reappear (they stopped around Thursday) then bottle it.
-Give it the 2-3 weeks that the various posts here seem to encourage to "let the yeasties clean up after themselves" (am I misunderstanding this?)
-Something else?

The Details:
Currently the beer is in the plaster fermenting bucket (has been since Tuesday). After pitching the yeast, I went to bed, and woke up to the airlock bubbling steadily. That lasted a couple days, and I haven't seen any bubbles since Thursday, though if I push on the bucket lid slightly, the airlock bubbles, so I know there's still a bunch of CO2 in there. I tested the gravity today, and it's at 1.020 (shooting for 1.012-1.015, so still a little (a lot?) high).

Here's the ingredient list and gravity details:
6.6 lbs Amer Malt Extract
2 lbs Caramel 120-L grain
1 oz Chinook hops (boiling)
1/2 oz Aurora hops (10 mins from end of boil)
1 oz Fuggle hops (5 mins from end of boil)
Estimated OG 1.040 - 1.050 (I forgot to test for the OG! Crapola.)
Estimated FG: 1.012 - 1.015


Thanks for the help!

 

[Poindexter]

First, you can go six weeks in the plastic bucket, no problem. Maybe even longer.

Pretty hard to screw upthe OG when you use that much extract and just steep some specialty grains, so stop worrying about that.

At this point you pitched 4 or 5 days ago and you are down to 1.020. Fine. I would, personally, not even check the gravity again until next weekend. Next Saturday you will probably find 1.010 to 1.015. Leave it till next Wednesday, so your total is up around 14 days from pitching. If the gravity doesn't budge from day ten to day fourteen, go ahead and bottle the Saturday after that, around day 18 or 19 or so.

M2c anyway,
P

 

[Benjibbad]

First RDWHAHB. Then have another....Now you should be feeling good. There is nothing wrong with letting your beer sit in your plastic fermenter. Unless your "plaster bucket" is not food grade dismiss the thought that this is no good. Next wait another week. Most people tend to ferment for AT LEAST 2 weeks. Then take a gravity reading, if you get consisten reading for 3 days then it is time to bottle. Assuming the FG is within range of your beer. Your beer will be fine, great even! Give the yeasties time to settle out (mostly) and clear up the brew a bit. Then prime and bottle!! Lastly have another Homebrew

 

[BrewStooge]

Generally it'll stop within a week but it's not ready to bottle. Go with the hydrometer's word on when it's "done" before you consider bottling. They usual advise is take readings a couple days apart and if it stays steady it's done, regardless of if the FG is spot on (the FG is a whole separate matter).

As for how long, well to secondary or not is an unending debate. I like to just to see it clear, on the flip side is that letting it sit in primary for a bit longer will let the yeast do it's thing and clean up a bunch of the early byproducts. An easy rule is 1-2-3 weeks for primary, secondary, bottles respectively. I've taken to 2 or 3 - 1 or 2 - 1 or until it's drank rule of thumb for transfers.

Of course the best testing device you'll ever find is built right into your mouth, so when you take the samples for testing give it a try. You'll know better when it's done than any instruction sheet will.

 

[HOOTER]

It's all about the gravity. When the gravity levels out over a few days, it's technically ready to bottle. Of course, giving it a couple weeks in primary is wise, even if it's done fermenting long before that. This means you can put the bottles away for a good 10 days. By then you should have reached your desired FG, or close to it anyway. Once your gravity is steady and low enough to indicate that fermentation hasn't stalled, bottle and let 'er sit for a few weeks. LHBS's are notorious for encouraging noob's to rush, which inevitably leads to sub-par brew. Take your time and let the yeasties do their job.

BTW, 2 lbs. of crystal 120? That's a ton, but maybe that's just me.

Cheers

 

[Ksosh]

Thanks for the replies! I figured this would be the general consensus (check the FG readings, forget it for another week or so, don't worry about the time in the plastic bucket, etc), but needed confirmation before I completely disregarded the LHBS guy's advice

Regarding the 2 lbs of caramel/crystal 120: It seemed like a hell of a lot at the time, and they gave me 2 grain bags with the kit (though I found the second at the bottom of the box after I had shoved all of it into a single bag).

 

[eriktlupus]

Of course the best testing device you'll ever find is built right into your mouth, so when you take the samples for testing give it a try. You'll know better when it's done than any instruction sheet will.

just so you remember that the beer is green and not truly ready for consumption. experience is also the best teacher in this area

First, you can go six weeks in the plastic bucket, no problem. Maybe even longer.
M2c anyway,
P

i have a problem with this statement. plastic buckets are not designed for prolonged storage of clearing stage beer since they are grade 2or3 and oxygen permeable and hence can lead to an oxidized beer.

 

[Poindexter]

i have a problem with this statement. plastic buckets are not designed for prolonged storage of clearing stage beer since they are grade 2or3 and oxygen permeable and hence can lead to an oxidized beer.

I don't disagree with the science. I let several batches go in plastic, four to six weeks, no trouble for me.

I am not going to argue within someone else's palate. If you can taste a difference I am happy for you. Curious to know if you spring the dough for grown in USA garlic or if the Chinese stuff measures up.

I primary and secondary in Stainless Steel now, so it is a non-issue for me. The general concensus here is plastic (the food grade bucket in a starter kit) is six weeks is OK and a few folks have gone even longer. I had the courage to try it from using the search button here.

If I didn't have SS all around, and I was contemplating something over 1.080 OG; certainly I would primary in plastic for 4-6 weeks and then secondary in glass for 8+ weeks. But I don't have that problem anymore.

I would encourage advancing brewers to price out cornelius kegs before you buy your first glass carboy. Even if you aren't kegging "yet" buying a grey post and a short piece of hose for an airlock (together with a beer bottle with some water in it) lets you start building a SS fermenter collection that will have other versatility later.

 

[yeoldebrewer]

2 lbs of 120L is a hefty bill. This may be a brew that needs a little more aging for best flavor.

 

[Hegh]

Which LHBS? I only know of two in this area, and one of them gives weird advice. I haven't been going to the other one to really make up my mind on them yet...

 

[Ksosh]

Which LHBS? I only know of two in this area, and one of them gives weird advice. I haven't been going to the other one to really make up my mind on them yet...

The instructions were from Hammersmith and the advice was from Hennesey.

 

[Yooper]

You know, brewing is a hobby that has come a long way. Some of us are older and aren't as quick to embrace newer ideas. I know people who have made wine for 50 years without a hydrometer, and made great wine. I can't do that, but I can honestly tell you that my wine is not better.

What I'm trying to say is that techniques change with new knowledge. Even Charlie Papazian recognizes that ingredients and the processes have changed since he started.

The instructions you have aren't exactly wrong, they just aren't going to give you the best and most reliable results. Many kit makers encourage brewers to rush to bottle it and drink it, because new brewers seem to demand it. How many would buy a kit that says, "Good beer ready in just 6 weeks!" vs "Beer in 10 days!" Of course, people with more experience know that quick beer does not necessarily equal the best quality beer you can make.

You'll find many differences in our ideas- plastic vs glass; stainless vs aluminum; secondary vs no secondary; etc. None of them are wrong, just different preferences based on ideas and experiences.

As a newer brewer, I'd suggest relying on common sense instructions from people like John Palmer (howtobrew.com), from us!, and your own common sense. You may not know ingredients yet, but brewing is as much as an art as it is a science. If it seems like it makes sense, then it's probably good advice- but use your own judgement, too.

Welcome to the hobby! It's the most addicting hobby I've ever had.

 

[Revvy]

We get threads like this all the time, asking, "how come my lhbs say this (or Palmer, or papzian even) and you guys say this..."

Threads like these;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/differing-opinion-between-lhbs-information-forum-111925/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/im-hearing-conflicting-information-25117/


In terms of lhb's, remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learnign new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

ANd in terms of books.....think about this;

One thing to remember is that Papazian, as wonderful as it is, was written 30 years ago...and a lot of "science" or "common wisdom" that he as an author tapped into has evolved....all authors face this issue with their work.

Charlie Papazian said it But he might not necessarily say it now....see the difference?

His basic info is timeless....how to brew beer, figure out recipes, etc...but some of the info is just a reflection of the "opinions," or prevailing wisdom of the times, and may not even reflect his current beliefs...There's a podcast with Papazian from a year or so ago, where he talks about just having started using rice hulls in his mash ton...so if he doesn't update the book again, or write a new one, unless you've heard the podcast or read it on here, you won't KNOW about it.

Here's a good example John Palmer basically admits that what he wrote about IBU's in How to brew, was essentially "wrong" or at least outdated in light of new science...

But even Palmer's book is a few years old.....

March 20, 2008 - What Is an IBU . . . Really?
John Palmer, author of How to Brew, shares information from a conference that challenged his concept of what defines an International Bitterness Unit (IBU).

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-20-08ibu.mp3

I cite that podcast as an example of how the knowlegebase shifts so fast in this hobby because of places like this or podcasts...A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

If an author plans to devote months to an extensive revision, they more than likely would just write a new book anyway.

And it's usually done for money or simply to get it back into the marketplace after a long lag..Sometimes a revised edition is simply a new cover or a different shaped book (like a trade paperback.) With a new intro and conclusion tagged on...

So there's really no way to know too much how updated the book was..I mean my copy is the 2002 edition iirc, and the photos are still pretty much have the look of bygone times.

I mean I look at my own writings, including my E-book on spirituality, it was written back in 1999-2000, and a lot of my beliefs and ideas have shifted about things in the 8 years...I am not the same person that I was when I wrote it....And neither is Charlie Papazian the same brewer he is now...like I said, he just discovered rice hulls last year.

In that Podcast, Palmer basically contradicts in some was what he wrote in HTB...and I bet it will be reflected in his subsequent writings, but if he doesn't go back and revise HTB, and people don't read or listen to anything by him after, than they won't realize that the knowlegebase has already shifted...

In terms of long primaring, back then, yeah autolysis WAS the big fear at the time of Papazian, someone said this week it may have been a reflection of the oldier and crappier yeasts in the pre-prohibition days.....

Also what is of concern to commercial brewers of light lagers (by the way to lager means to store for a great length of time) or lager brewers in general doesn't necessarily apply to ales...or doesn't apply for a few weeks (or even a couple months of a healthy yeast cake.)

But things, like science, and even the yeasts themselves have changed, and we by our OWN experience have witnessed how much better our beer is when we've left it alone in primary for 2-4 weeks.

Rememeber Papazian was writing his book from right around that time period, when yeasts cake in dry cakes and may not have even been stored properly, and many people just placed towles and cookie sheets on their ceramic crock pot fermenters.

It is podcasts and forums like this where you will find a lot more state of the art, or current views, and even scientific information...I mean if Jamil, John Palmer or Papazian even farts on a podcast, one of us beergeeks are going to start a thread on it within 10 minutes.

Speaking of Palmer...Here's what HE says on the subject...

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

I hope this helps you realize that knowledge doesn't exist in a vacuum, it evolves, and since this a HUUUUGE resource updated several hundred times of day, built upon each brewer's experience, this is really hwere you would find the most cutting edge information.

This is an ever evolving hobby...Places like this is where you find the most state of the art information/wisdom about brewing, because of the sheer number of us trying new things, hearing new things, and even breaking new ground and contributing to the body of info on the hobby...Look at some of that inventions that came out of here, and then ended up later in BYO articles by our members...

 

[Hegh]

The instructions were from Hammersmith and the advice was from Hennesey.

I don't really trust Hammersmith any more. I've been pretty impressed with Hennesy so far, though. In fact, the owner there said that Hammersmith used to work for him before starting his own shop, and expressed some skepticism about his abilities.

I don't know if it'll mean much to you now, but Hammersmith gave me Nottingham yeast for a Hefeweizen kit that I bought. Hefeweizen is supposed to be cloudy, with lots of yeast in solution and much of its flavor coming from yeast characteristics; Nottingham yeast provides very little flavor of its own, and it settles out quite thoroughly -- exactly the opposite of the style guidelines.

Also, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a grain mill on site and just stores all of his grains pre-crushed... not good for freshness.

I'll still go to Hammersmith for equipment and some ingredients, but I don't ask for advice any more.

Good luck with your first brew, I hope you have fun!

 

[yeasty]

these guys are just being nice. IMO if you go into a LHBS with your wallet open and they dont have the skills to give you some of the most common knowledge you need, as well as being up on current trends, then they should be selling toasters or something else !

 

[Bobby_M]

A lot has already been said but I'll throw my 2 cents in. Bottling immediately after "bubbling stops" is just bad news. At the very least, you should check the gravity after 14 days, then at 21 days. If it's the same, bottle it. Bottling early than 2-3 weeks leads to posts like "how can I reduce the sediment in my beer" or "should I filter my beer?".

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

It's all been said already, so my point is now redundant. However. I just gotta say it. If you have a guy at the LHBS that says you should gauge the progress of you brew by the bubbles in the airlock, then you would be doing the homebrew community a favour if you go back there and neuter him, his immediate family, and anyone that he has had possible sexual relations with (This includes dry humped fermenters)

Some LHBS stores are golden. Others are rust.

Even on this forum some of the advice is crap, especially mine. But at least here you can find the consensus of experience and contempory wisdom by reading up.

 

[Ksosh]

Thanks everyone for the advice and resources. I'll leave the beer in the fermenter longer than the kit or lhbs indicated and not worry about it. I bought another whole kit from craigslist (2 buckets, glass carboy, all the hoses, airlocks, etc) for $20, so I'll be able to brew two-three batches at once, and not get as antsy letting things sit longer.

 

[MgMt_Home_Brew]

Thanks everyone for the advice and resources. I'll leave the beer in the fermenter longer than the kit or lhbs indicated and not worry about it. I bought another whole kit from craigslist (2 buckets, glass carboy, all the hoses, airlocks, etc) for $20, so I'll be able to brew two-three batches at once, and not get as antsy letting things sit longer.

Sounds like a sweet score....

And yes multiple batches at a time is the key

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

ksocia -
You have to start filling that pipeline and supply, you never when a party will draw down your reserves and cause a shortage.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I have a Dubbel (OG 1.078) that is on it's 7th week in the primary, I wanted to bottle yesterday, but it was my mom's birthday, had to put it on hold till next weekend (which will be filled with brewing and bottling making two batches, an APA and another Stout, and I need to bottle this Dubbel).

 

[Ksosh]

Alright, I managed to pick up a glass carboy for super cheap ($20 for that plus a couple buckets and a bunch of accessories).

I initially was planning to do the 3-3 route without the secondary, but since I had it laying around, I changed to the 1-2-3 route that's been talked about. After ~8 days, I transferred the batch from the plastic fermenter into the glass carboy (gravity = ~1.020). I just checked it today (day 14?) and it's still at 1.020, running at ~74 degrees. I'm going to give it another week (or two) in the secondary of course, but if it's still above the expected range at that time (1.015-1.012) should I just bottle it and call it a 'sweet' scotch ale, or would leaving it longer result in a lower gravity if it hasn't changed in 2+ weeks?

Not sure if it matters, but when I transferred to the secondary, I didn't transfer the 1/2"+ of trub crap on the bottom.

Thanks again for the help. Mainly I'm hoping to avoid bottle bombs.

 

[Hegh]

If it hasn't budged in 2 weeks, it's done. Don't worry about bottle bombs from residual sweetness.

Could be that the yeast are tired, but it could also be unfermentables that are raising your gravity.

 

[Nurmey]

It could also be that you racked it before it was finished fermenting and by doing so you stalled your beer. One week is a guideline but if your beer isn't finished you should leave it.

 

[tranceamerica]

well, I'm in a minority around here...but I don't use a hydrometer. my method is to primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and RDWHAHB, and bottle it at that point. I end up with "good homebrew" but certainly not award winning beer. That's fine for me, because I'm only trying to impress myself (and of course, it's STILL better than 90% of beer in the store...)

why don't I use a hydrometer? because I do all grain, with a split pot boil on the stove top. I have NO WAY of getting an accurate O.G. and also feel that it does not change what I'm actually going to drink. Yes, I'd probably get better at what I'm doing, but I'm fine where I am. Really, making pretty good beer is pretty easy, and I love doing it!

 

[Hegh]

well, I'm in a minority around here...but I don't use a hydrometer. my method is to primary for 4 - 6 weeks, and RDWHAHB, and bottle it at that point. I end up with "good homebrew" but certainly not award winning beer. That's fine for me, because I'm only trying to impress myself (and of course, it's STILL better than 90% of beer in the store...)

why don't I use a hydrometer? because I do all grain, with a split pot boil on the stove top. I have NO WAY of getting an accurate O.G. and also feel that it does not change what I'm actually going to drink. Yes, I'd probably get better at what I'm doing, but I'm fine where I am. Really, making pretty good beer is pretty easy, and I love doing it!

That's basically how I brew. I take hydrometer readings just before pitching and just before mixing in priming sugar, but for the most part I don't use the readings to tell me when my beer is done.

If it's not done after 4 weeks (my personal minimum for the vast majority of styles), it's not going to finish given more time. So I just plan to bottle 4+ weeks from brewing and don't worry about it.

I haven't done it yet, but if I really wanted clarity I would probably rack to secondary after 3 weeks and then give it 2 more before bottling.

Long primaries are great because then there's no worry over "is my beer done?" Hard to do for a first brew, though, due to impatience.

 

[HillbillyDeluxe]

I don't disagree with the science. I let several batches go in plastic, four to six weeks, no trouble for me.

I am not going to argue within someone else's palate. If you can taste a difference I am happy for you. Curious to know if you spring the dough for grown in USA garlic or if the Chinese stuff measures up.

I primary and secondary in Stainless Steel now, so it is a non-issue for me. The general concensus here is plastic (the food grade bucket in a starter kit) is six weeks is OK and a few folks have gone even longer. I had the courage to try it from using the search button here.

If I didn't have SS all around, and I was contemplating something over 1.080 OG; certainly I would primary in plastic for 4-6 weeks and then secondary in glass for 8+ weeks. But I don't have that problem anymore.

Guys, I just did a barleywine in an alepale. 12 months in primary, 3 months in secondary, and 6 weeks in a bottle. Its great, i have 2 gold medals to prove it(medals are local chicken **** medals but judges were solid).