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Commercial examples of WY2308/WLP838/W-308? Lallemand Diamond?

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ebbelwoi

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Does anyone know of any commercial breweries (esp. German ones) that use WY2308, WLP838, or Weihenstephan 308? I've read that these are the same strain. I've also read that Lallemand Diamond is the dry version. For whatever reason, I enjoy knowing that I'm using the same yeast as a brewery I like.

I've done a few beers with Diamond, and I'm very happy with them. I'm getting ready to do another batch (with minor tweaks) of a lager that turned out really well it I could either use the same Diamond slurry+starter I used for that batch, or I've got a packet of WLP838 in the fridge. I'm out of dry Diamond, the slurry is about two months old, and the WLP838 is about a month away from its best-by date. I need to start the starter in a few days, so I need to make a decision.
 

Steveruch

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I'm pretty sure diamond lager yeast is the same as w34/70 which is not a version of 2308.
 
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ebbelwoi

ebbelwoi

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I'm pretty sure diamond lager yeast is the same as w34/70 which is not a version of 2308.
Have you used it? I've done several split batches of w34/70 and Diamond and they do not appear or taste the same. In this reddit thread, Andreas Krennmair (author of Historic German and Austrian Beers for the Home Brewer) says that Diamond is the same as WY2308/ W-308: https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/e7fb2l
A post in this thread claims it, too: Danstar Diamond Hefe - hobbybrauer.de
 

dmtaylor

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Interestingly, none of these yeast strains are the same. WLP838 in particular isn't even a lager strain, it's cerevisiae. Here's my summary table based on all the recent genomic studies:

 

Steveruch

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Have you used it? I've done several split batches of w34/70 and Diamond and they do not appear or taste the same. In this reddit thread, Andreas Krennmair (author of Historic German and Austrian Beers for the Home Brewer) says that Diamond is the same as WY2308/ W-308:
It sure could be. I've used both w34/70 and diamond lager, but never in a split batch and never even all that close in time.
 
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ebbelwoi

ebbelwoi

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Interestingly, none of these yeast strains are the same. WLP838 in particular isn't even a lager strain, it's cerevisiae. Here's my summary table based on all the recent genomic studies:

I get noticeably different flavor and flocculation from w34/70 and Diamond.
 

dmtaylor

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I get noticeably different flavor and flocculation from w34/70 and Diamond.
You may be right. I have not done a side by side tasting. I find that typically the different yeast manufacturers will copy one another, such that right or wrong, this just seemed the best fit based on this premise. Do you believe it more likely perhaps that Diamond is instead equivalent to S-23 rather than W-34/70? What is your experience with the Diamond lager yeast? Was it estery? Did it have an especially long lag time? Anything specific you can recall?
 

beersk

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Interestingly, none of these yeast strains are the same. WLP838 in particular isn't even a lager strain, it's cerevisiae. Here's my summary table based on all the recent genomic studies:

So, you're saying wlp838 is an ale strain? Why does White Labs market it as a lager strain then?
 

dmtaylor

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So, you're saying wlp838 is an ale strain? Why does White Labs market it as a lager strain then?
Could be a few different things:

1) It's always been used to make "lagers". It's an ale strain that can handle cold temperatures. So it depends a bit on one's definition of the word "lager".

2) They haven't gotten around to changing their marketing yet. The genomic study on this just came out last year. Change takes time. And maybe they want to confirm it against another study before deciding too.

3) People can't handle the truth. Maybe they just don't want to upset anyone.

Who knows.
 
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ebbelwoi

ebbelwoi

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You may be right. I have not done a side by side tasting. I find that typically the different yeast manufacturers will copy one another, such that right or wrong, this just seemed the best fit based on this premise. Do you believe it more likely perhaps that Diamond is instead equivalent to S-23 rather than W-34/70? What is your experience with the Diamond lager yeast? Was it estery? Did it have an especially long lag time? Anything specific you can recall?
I'm afraid my palate and vocabulary probably aren't refined enough to answer your questions. I can say that the w34/70 has seemed harsher than the Diamond, which seemed mellower, or maltier, I suppose. I haven't used S-23, so I can't make that comparison, but I can't say I've noted any esters. Diamond has flocked faster and more thoroughly than w34/70 in every instance. And it tastes much better.

I don't have any notes about lag time, but I've got some more packets on the way, so I'll make note of that. I have two microbatches of pressure fermented Export fermented with w34/70 and Diamond that I'm expecting to pour next weekend after 5+ weeks of lagering. I'll keep you posted on that as well.

So does anybody know any German breweries that use WY2308/W-308? I guess I should ask on the German forum.
 

beersk

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Could be a few different things:

1) It's always been used to make "lagers". It's an ale strain that can handle cold temperatures. So it depends a bit on one's definition of the word "lager".

2) They haven't gotten around to changing their marketing yet. The genomic study on this just came out last year. Change takes time. And maybe they want to confirm it against another study before deciding too.

3) People can't handle the truth. Maybe they just don't want to upset anyone.

Who knows.
Well I'll be damned. That's just interesting. Thanks for the info.
 

Vale71

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So does anybody know any German breweries that use WY2308/W-308? I guess I should ask on the German forum.
I guess the answer is, "Besides the people actually working at those breweries (if any), no." :p
I'm afraid all you're going to get, either here or on the German forum, is wild speculation as I'm not aware of commercial breweries freely divulging such details.
 
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ebbelwoi

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Apparently, one of the former brewmasters at Oettinger has said that they use W-308.
 

Bramling Cross

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I've done several split batches of w34/70 and Diamond and they do not appear or taste the same.
I'll add that they don't perform the same, either.

I'm currently running a series of beers with Diamond, my first run with this yeast. The thing that has quickly become apparent is that Diamond really doesn't like the cold end of the spectrum. I've pitched it at the same rates and temps at which 34/70 works nicely and Diamond is consistently slower to get going and much more sluggish once it starts fermenting. I've found that it really only perks up once it gets to 55F and above. That seems awfully warm to me for the first half of a lager's gravity points. Last, it seems to like to punk out several points higher than 34/70.

I haven't tasted it yet, and I'll admit that taste is what really matters. But for the time being, I'm not at all impressed with its performance versus 34/70.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Could be a few different things:

1) It's always been used to make "lagers". It's an ale strain that can handle cold temperatures. So it depends a bit on one's definition of the word "lager".

2) They haven't gotten around to changing their marketing yet. The genomic study on this just came out last year. Change takes time. And maybe they want to confirm it against another study before deciding too.

3) People can't handle the truth. Maybe they just don't want to upset anyone.

Who knows.
Or the sequencing was screwed up - it definitely happened on some of the Strasbourg strains.

And according to a thread on AHA at the moment, the current BRY-97 sequence is a screwup, it actually looks like a descendant of BRY-96 in the Chico family.
 
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