CO2 Purging

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Langerz

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I've just started brewing and done a couple of IPAs. NEIPAs are my favorite style. I've been reading quite a bit and naturally got to the "oxygen is a problem" part of the discussion. For the moment I'm bottling and not letting myself get kegging equipment (I've spent enough of brewing equipment until I get a few batches in). It seems like some have figured our ways to make this work with CO2 purging. I've read a lot of the threads but there are a few questions I can't find answers to so thought I'd come here....

1) The oxygenation issue is always talked about with NEIPAs, but always said to be due to high levels of dry hopping. I don't see it talked about with WCIPA but would assume it applies if they are heavily dry hopped. I'm curious about this one because I currently have a WCIPA in the fermenter and getting ready to through a bunch of dry hops into it in a couple days.

2) There is a lot of discussion about purging with CO2. Purging bottles, purging bottling buckets, purging headspace of fermenters etc, but there I can't find many details on the how. I generally see set pressure low to 1-2 psi, but not much discussion on how long. I assume it takes a pretty good shot of CO2 to make a difference (especially since there is a lot of debate on if it makes a difference), but no discussion on how long it takes to purge various vessels.
 
Oxidation is a problem for MOST beers, it's just that NEIPA is the beer that shows you the damage the soonest and at the lowest amounts of damage. It also degrades other hoppy beers by stripping hop aroma and flavor first. At slightly higher levels, or after slightly more time it goes after the malt.

Describe your current equipment in some detail and or add pictures.
 
I guess the first questions are what are you fermenting in and what do you have for CO2?
I'm fermenting in a glass big mouth carboy. So far I have used a bottling bucket but thinking I will likely skip that for beers sensitive to O2.

I did pick up a 5 lb CO2 tank recently. Probably way over the top for what I need right now but I'll eventually get into kegging so future investment.
 
OK, so you can push some CO2 through the head space after you add your hops. How you do this is going to depend on what the carboy is capped with.

The next question is how are you going to bottle? I'm guessing your carboy doesn't have a spigot.
 
OK, so you can push some CO2 through the head space after you add your hops. How you do this is going to depend on what the carboy is capped with.

The next question is how are you going to bottle? I'm guessing your carboy doesn't have a spigot.
It doesn't. So far I have transferred from the carboy using an auto siphon but I'm open to suggestions.
 
It doesn't. So far I have transferred from the carboy using an auto siphon but I'm open to suggestions.
Then your carboy is going to have to be open while you bottle. I guess you could try to stream CO2 into it the whole time that you're siphoning beer into bottles, but I'm really not sure how much good that will do.

And yea, then minimize the headspace and squirt some CO2 in under the cap before you crimp it. I personally have found this to be anything but simple, but maybe some other folks have tricks that they can share. Some people use wine preserver to purge the headspace.
 
I had some issues bottling IPA's and some pale ales as I usually experienced some level of oxidation. But I know some folks can do it successfully, and more power to them. I fared much better bottling my non hoppy beers, and when I finally switched to kegging, using pressure transfers, my IPA's improved.
 
fwiw...

1677870370242.jpeg


In use, I add a bubbler line from the gas post to a bucket of water, and use a scale to help avoid over-filling and to record what the filled volume is for my keg tracking keezer...

keg_racking.jpg


Also, I rubber band a chunk of paint strainer bag to the racking cane before sanitizing it all in a Star San bucket.

CO2_push_rig_05.jpg


Cheers!
 
does not the priming sugar take care of any oxygen introduced at bottling? The yeast is going to start fermenting again after it's bottled.
 
fwiw...

View attachment 814124

In use, I add a bubbler line from the gas post to a bucket of water, and use a scale to help avoid over-filling and to record what the filled volume is for my keg tracking keezer...

View attachment 814126

Also, I rubber band a chunk of paint strainer bag to the racking cane before sanitizing it all in a Star San bucket.

View attachment 814127

Cheers!
Since he is not kegging and is trying to address oxidation while bottling, couldn't he use this configuration and just add a bottling wand to the end of the beer line?
 
I should report pack after bottling my last beer. My last beer was a very hoppy west coast IPA. In the realm of a Pliny the Elder clone. I used it as a trial run for trying some things with CO2 purging before I take a stab at a NEIPA.

In a lot of areas I would say I learned a lot but had issues with a lot of the steps that probably made purges ineffective.

I tried an elaborate scheme to purge all the air out of my bottling bucket. Very similar to the process of how people are purging a keg. I filled with Star San and then emptied while pumping in CO2. I modified a bucket lid to allow this, but in the end I didn't have a good way to get the last little bit of Star San out and ended up taking this lid off anyway to dump the last pint or so. I think I could modify the set up and achieve a full purge of the bucket, but it was a giant pain. In the end when I get to NEIPAs I'm not bothering with this and just going to bottle straight from the fermenter.

For actual bottling I filled with a bottling wand to the top and then remove the bottling wand and filled the neck by pushing the wand against the neck to fill to roughly the bottom collar (bottom of the finish? - not a bottle terminology expert) so was almost full. Then I had my CO2 tank with a aeration stone attached. This made a nice amount of foam on the top of the beer but when I pulled the stone out the foam ended up being lower then the lip of the bottle by ~3/8" so I'm not really sure I got the affect of "capping on foam". I tried without the stone to see if just the tubing displaced less volume but it just made a mess splashing beer out of the bottle rather than creating foam. I'm not sure if there are smaller aeration stones available that would help but I'm not sure how successful I was at really purging O2. I am sure I have less than if I did nothing. I'll find out when I'm done conditioning (although I should have done a couple baseline bottles with no purge to compare).

I think in the future my NEIPA process will be bottle direct from the fermenter, fill within 1/2", purge head space with the aeration stone and cap right away.

I'm still not quite sure about my original question about NEIPAs other IPAs or hoppy beers. My last beer had a strong amount of hops in a similar range as NEIPAs so if it's the hops that are sensitive to oxygen I would think they would be equal. At the same time every NEIPA discussion I read talks extensively about limiting oxygen and beers getting dark/losing aroma. I never see it discussed in other IPA threads though. Is there something else besides hop content that makes NEIPAs different?
 
Since he is not kegging and is trying to address oxidation while bottling, couldn't he use this configuration and just add a bottling wand to the end of the beer line?

If one were to completely avoid using a bottling bucket, pre-dose the bottles with carbonation drops or the equivalent granular priming sugar, and have good control over the flow (I'd recommend a shut-off valve or one of those spring-loaded bottling widgets at the bottle end of the line) I suppose it would work. The problem would be how to purge the bottle before filling to avoid oxidation damage at that point in the process - and I don't believe in the "self-scrubbing" theory :)

Cheers!
 
I'm still not quite sure about my original question about NEIPAs other IPAs or hoppy beers. My last beer had a strong amount of hops in a similar range as NEIPAs so if it's the hops that are sensitive to oxygen I would think they would be equal. At the same time every NEIPA discussion I read talks extensively about limiting oxygen and beers getting dark/losing aroma. I never see it discussed in other IPA threads though. Is there something else besides hop content that makes NEIPAs different?

I brewed IPAs and DIPAs for at least a decade before my first NEIPA brew - I guess they would be called West Coast style now because they were quite bright - and don't recall oxidation ever being such a necessarily critical point of interest. There must be something organically different (and subject to essentially "rotting") about what's left in the beer after an NEIPA brew...

Cheers!
 
After bottling more than 200 brews, not purging the bottles and using a bottling wand (spring-loaded bottling widgets).
Priming sugar added to each bottle.
I have had no issues with oxidation that I am aware off.
 
It's funny as I would have said exactly the same as @BeerHolic (just not as many brews) till I did a batch in pet bottles and got advised to squeeze them till the beer comes out and then put the lid on.
They were actually better than the ones of the same batch in glass bottles.
Almost like they were a bit brighter...
 
I think the best advice for bottling these styles is to store them cold, after bottle conditioning, and most importantly drink them quickly. These styles are meant to be consumed quickly. We are talking about beer, not wine; are we not! Embrace the short cycle time.
Otherwise brew & bottle styles that can handle some oxidation. Or move to kegging with closed transfers.
 
Kegging seems like such a big step in homebrewing until you finally do it and then you realize it's just a single 5 gallon bottle plus the benefit of closed transfer. If you are going to brew NEIPA you owe it to yourself to keg it.

Bobby_M (brewhardware) has some inexpensive gadgets that make CO2 capture and closed transfer simple.

I visited Sierra Nevada brewery and after watching their canning line and the process of purging I realized it's near impossible to replicate that in my kitchen. Sure, you can bottle a good NEIPA at home but it probably won't be as good as it could be.
 
Kegging seems like such a big step in homebrewing until you finally do it and then you realize it's just a single 5 gallon bottle plus the benefit of closed transfer.
Maybe if you drink all of one beer before you're ready to package the next one. Some of us don't have the space to keep three or four 5 gallon kegs cold.

I'm trying to figure out a process for keg carbonating/conditioning and then bottling from the keg, but I really don't have enough fridge space to get one 5 gallon keg and 50 bottles cold either.
 
I visited Sierra Nevada brewery and after watching their canning line and the process of purging I realized it's near impossible to replicate that in my kitchen. Sure, you can bottle a good NEIPA at home but it probably won't be as good as it could be.

Sierra Nevada needs to package their beer to remain fresh under very adverse conditions. So while there may be techniques that we can use when home brewing, their problems are not always our problems.

The book The New IPA has information on preventing the stalling of beer. There are a number of suggestions to slow down stalling that can be done in earlier steps in the brewing process. Do people who successfully bottle NEIPAs also use these ideas? Unknown (at the moment), as the anecdotal stories I have seen rarely get past the idea of "oxygen ingress".

Finally, the short thread "How to bottle NEIPA (without kegging)" may be of interest to those looking to improve their bottle condition / package process.
 
After bottling more than 200 brews, not purging the bottles and using a bottling wand (spring-loaded bottling widgets).
Priming sugar added to each bottle.
I have had no issues with oxidation that I am aware off.
Oxidation is an abused term in the homebrewing world. I brewed about 15 years without thinking about it until I started searching for more refined flavors in certain styles. Severe oxidation = cardboard flavors. We rarely get there. What we come in contact with every brew is staling. Basically the very beginning of oxidation where the wort/hops/beer is starting to go stale. Higher level flavors start to round out, go away or turn to just sweet. This process starts the second you grind the grain. Just like cutting an apple open.

I have been pursuing a low oxygen hot and cold practice for almost five years now. It is not earth shattering, but the beer are brighter and have more nuanced character and flavors. You can taste it right away in the mash wort. It is less sugary and more bright. The same goes for the hops. Or another way to look at it is the rest of the heavy sugar flavors are removed to make way for the hops to shine through...

Now I have added pressure to my brewing and low oxygen + pressure is hop nirvana. This is why the big boys get such hop flavor. The large conicals they ferment in have a permanent high level of hydrostatic pressure. And they have the tools to keep the O2 down all the way to your glass.

So I believe it is worth the effort to learn and adjust your process to mitigate O2. I am happy to see the OP is a new brewer and already having the conversation. If you start with this mindset, it will be your SOP.
 
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Maybe if you drink all of one beer before you're ready to package the next one. Some of us don't have the space to keep three or four 5 gallon kegs cold.
Good point.
My "solution" is to alternate brewing beers that need to be in a keg and then porter/stouts that I usually bottle also because I have a few friends that really like the dark beers. I'm also trying some half batches with 2.5 gallon kegs.



Oxidation is an abused term in the homebrewing world. I brewed about 15 years without thinking about it until I started searching for more refined flavors in certain styles. Severe oxidation = cardboard flavors. We rarely get there. What we come in contact with every brew is staling.
I've wondered if it is because the homebrewed beers have changed over the past 15 years. The varieties of hops and the extreme amount of hops especially dry hopping are different now and the beers might be more susceptible to staling/oxidation. I used to bottle all my beer from a bucket with good results but I never had the aggressive hopping schedules that are common now.
 
Oxidation is an abused term in the homebrewing world. I brewed about 15 years without thinking about it until I started searching for more refined flavors in certain styles. Severe oxidation = cardboard flavors. We rarely get there. What we come in contact with every brew is staling. Basically the very beginning of oxidation where the wort/hops/beer is starting to go stale. Higher level flavors start to round out, go away or turn to just sweet. This process starts the second you grind the grain. Just like cutting an apple open.

I have been pursuing a low oxygen hot and cold practice for almost five years now. It is not earth shattering, but the beer are brighter and have more nuanced character and flavors. You can taste it right away in the mash wort. It is less sugary and more bright. The same goes for the hops. Or another way to look at it is the rest of the heavy sugar flavors are removed to make way for the hops to shine through...

Now I have added pressure to my brewing and low oxygen + pressure is hop nirvana. This is why the big boys get such hop flavor. The large conicals they ferment in have a permanent high level of hydrostatic pressure. And they have the tools to keep the O2 down all the way to your glass.

So I believe it is worth the effort to learn and adjust your process to mitigate O2. I am happy to see the OP is a new brewer and already having the conversation. If you start with this mindset, it will be your SOP.
Thanks will look into it.
 
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