Cloudy Dorito Beer :(

[quietglow]

Cloudy Dorito Beer

So I've been brewing since the 90s, first extract, then AG, then back to extract. Recently, I decided to return to AG brewing and decided to do so via BIAB. I've done two batches and I'm afraid they both are dumpers.

Batch 1: Belgian pale, brewed 4/19. I noticed post mash that the wort was super cloudy. Did some reasearch and found people suggesting it might have to do with squeezing the grain bag. Also people suggested it some of the stuff would precipitate out with the cold break (it didn't). Ferment lasted until 4/23. I moved it to a keg on 4/25, and at that point the wort was still way cloudier than any beer I've made. I tasted it at this point, and it had a very distinct grain flavor: a friend decribed it perfectly as "dortios without the salt." I thought maybe storing the beer in the keg at 40F would cause it to clear, but as of last night there has been no change.

Batch 2: Saison, brewed 4/26 mostly to convince myself that the first problems were just a fluke. No bag squeezing this time. Wort was super cloudy for the boil and into the carboy. Ferment went quick because its a very small beer (3.5%). Checked the gravity last night and tasted the sample: once again, doritos. This is not a subtle flavor. I don't think I could drink much of this as it currently is, and I have pretty low standards.

Equipment: 10g pot, 5 gal Home Depot paint strainer, electric thermometer probe

Narrative: same for both. Mashed at 152F for 60m, then boiled for 60m.

So my question, as you might imagine:

1. Can I do anything to save these 10 gallons of beer?
2. What the hell is going wrong?

 

[SudsyPaul]

First and foremost... wait more than 6 days before kegging.

The problem you're likely having is that you're not giving the yeast any time to clean up after itself. You don't mention what yeast you're using, but most/many need some time to clean up protein matter, etc...

What are the recipes for your beer? You using any corn or wheat malt? What yeast? How's your sanitation?

Super cloudy wort isn't a huge deal, it should all floc out after a week or two. Although you could have a too-fine crush in your mill.

There's a lot of missing info here... but I'm not sure there's much to do to save your beers... maybe try hitting them with gelatin (Don Osborn has a good how-to) to see if you can get some of the suspended stuff to fall out.

 

[quietglow]

Thanks. I should have said this: other than mashing, I am following the same methodologies I've used for lots of years now to make satisfactory beer (i.e. sanitization, kegging procedures etc). Yeast for batch 1 was Wyeast 1388 and the second batch was my second use of a DuPont saison culture (first use produced one of the best saisons I've ever made). I keg when ferment is done and age at cellar temps.

The yeast hasn't had time to clear, of course, but the cloudiness is way heavier than any beer I've made before, either via "traditional" all grain methods or extract. And then there's the dorito grain taste.

Happy to supply any more info that may be relevant. I suppose the real answer to question 1 is RHAHB, but I am reluctant to do BIAB again until I figure out what's up.

 

[SudsyPaul]

I appreciate that you've been doing this for a long time, but 6 days is rarely enough time for a yeast to do its work and then clean up after itself... then flocculate properly.

Why aren't you waiting longer for the yeast to properly finish up its fermentation and clean up process? If you can leave it in the carboy/bucket for an extra week or 2, why not? The 2 yeasts you're using a low floc yeasts, so you're going to have a LOT of protein matter left hanging around.

I've done a few BIAB, and haven't had any of the issues you're having. I've also never waited less than 20 days before racking off the yeast cake.

What were the actual recipes for the 2 beers? What grains did you use, and what mill are you using? How are you chilling the beers? How did you step up the DuPont yeast?

 

[Kingbogart]

You describe the flavor as doritos, which I associate with cheese corn chips. If the flavor is corn like, this can be associated with DMS, a compound that is usually driven off during the boil. Are you using high amounts of pilsner malts? Pilsner malt tends to have more DMS and requires a longer boil to get rid of the flavor.

Not having control of your fermentation temps can also cause flavors similar to this to appear.

You've been brewing for a long time, so I'm sure you know some or all of this, but without specific information about your recipe and general processes, people are just going to have to shotgun your answer and hope something makes sense.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I know a lot of folks use paint strainers for their brew bag and they work just fine, but I don't believe that they filter as well as voile does. Sure, it will all settle out in good time, but a better bag material will speed things up. I'd suggest you hit Walmart or a fabric store and pick up some voile (material used for sheer curtains) or better yet, get one of Wilserbrewer's custom brew bags.

I also agree with SudsyPaul... you should give your beer more time to clear before transferring. I generally go 12-14 days and I get mostly clear beer, but it does take a couple more weeks in the fridge for that to happen. Don't write off your brews yet, I'm sure they will clear up just fine after a couple of weeks of fridge time.

 

[singybrue]

My wort is significantly clearer since I stopped using the paint strainer bags and starting using a Wilserbrewer bag.

 

[quietglow]

You describe the flavor as doritos, which I associate with cheese corn chips. If the flavor is corn like, this can be associated with DMS, a compound that is usually driven off during the boil. Are you using high amounts of pilsner malts? Pilsner malt tends to have more DMS and requires a longer boil to get rid of the flavor.

Interesting. Yep, definitely corn. And yes, lots of belg pilsner malts in both batches. I don't have my saison recipe here at the moment, but here's the one for the pale:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westmalle_extra_-_004.pdf

I deviated from that only in mashing at 152 instead of doing the stepped mash. My mash temp was spot on (dropped a degree or two and I added some heat).

Not having control of your fermentation temps can also cause flavors similar to this to appear.

Ferment for both beers was done at 65f at pitch rising to 68f over a three days. Grains for the two batches came from different brew stores, so not likely to have anything to do with the mills.

 

[SudsyPaul]

So I'm seeing a 2 fold problem.

DMS could be from your boil being too short (many people boil Pilsen for 90min to drive off additional DMS) and from how little time you allow the yeast to work. After the yeast is done fermenting, it'll clean up a bunch of the DMS that's laying around... should clean it all up if there's not too much and if it's given the time.

 

[quietglow]

Okay good thoughts. I am, without a doubt, a very fast brewer. I.e. here's my faux brewery:

https://untappd.com/ImpatienceBrewing/beer

So I tend to make small beers and they tend to be hitting their peak about 4 weeks post brewday. It could quite possibly be the case that BIAB isn't the method for me given that preference.

For the sake of science, I'm going to rack the pale back out of the keg into a carboy and put it with its corny brother down in the basement and see if/how long they take to clear. From the reading I'm doing, and your input, I am guessing the prob is a combination of suspended micro grain particles and DMS. Time may clear them both up. I'll post the results here (there is at least one other thread I found identifying the same problem, but the OP never said whether his batch cleared).

 

[wilserbrewer]

I wouldn't transfer the beer out of the keg back into a carboy???

Maybe letting it condition at room temp for a week then chilling and carbonating.

BIAB will produce cloudier wort, but given time the beer will be nice and clear.

I also think these beers are very young, and need more time.

 

[wilserbrewer]

BIAB clarity after cold conditioning.


Wilserbrewer
Biabags.webs.com

 

[quietglow]

Actually, not even much time: I just racked the keg back into a carboy and before I did I took a few oz's of beer directly off the top of the keg once it was open. It was almost clear and no corn taste at all. The bottom of the keg had almost an inch of trub.

I think what happened is this: its been a very long time since I've had anything but hops and yeast suspended in my beer. BIAB adds lots of grain sediment to the mix, more even than traditional all grain methods. I am used to tasting green beer and ignoring the taste of the yeast, but the taste of the suspended grain threw me off.

Lesson learned: you don't want to keg BIAB beer as early as you can beer made with extract. I'll see how long it takes it to clear. If too long for me, I'll switch to an AG methodology.

Many thanks all.

 

[Hello]

Is it me or are you doing everything that people recommend you do not do? You've been brewing a long time, regardless of ABV, 4 days isn't long enough for yeast to do what they do best. Racking to a keg then from seems like a bad idea too. I'm unsure, but your list of beers on untappd don't tell me how fast you turn them around. If you think BIAB is causing off flavors due to trub then most certainly switch methods. I guess if you feel your 4-day beers are great using all grain or extract then you could be on to something.

 

[quietglow]

I'd love to have left the first beer to clear more in the keg (the air contact made me cringe) but as I guessed there was already a ton of trub and the beer isn't even clear. If it didn't clog the tube when dispensing the beer, it would have ended up in every glass.

@hello 6 days, not 4! Come by next time you're in Chicago and if I've straightened out this change in brew style by then, I'll share a pretty nice (IMHO) 3.5 week old beer with you!

 

[sikkingj]

+1 on Relax And Have A Homebrew, because I am slothful, I let my beers ride a month in the primary, dry hop, flavor as required, keg, force carb and drink - say 4-5 weeks grain to glass. The beers are crystal clear (okay except for that dunkelweisse where I over pitched) and life is good.

I understand your doing 10-gallon batches, but perhaps make some 5 gallon batches and build out your pipeline - I say that like we all have, i.e, with two little one under three I appreciate the need for speed. However the beers you selected are longer brewing beers. I noted from your Untapped that you are more focused on the session brews (which I can very much identify with), but these two brews seem to be a bit heavier and May well benefit from some additional time in the keg conditioning.

Case in point, I am enjoying a hazelnut porter (Jamie's Morebeer kit) that I was too lazy to measure out the hazelnut essence and used the whole bottle for the 5 gallon batch. It is only now hitting its stride (i.e., drinkable 15 months later). So happy I didn't dump it, as it is quite tasty and my aforementioned dunkelweisse has a bit of the yeast bite.

In sum, I believe BIAB will serve you well, but I believe you will need to incorporate a longer fermentation schedule and a bit longer (say a week) in the keg conditioning - say 4-5 weeks grain to glass.


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[LLBeanJ]

I've found that 90%+ of my brews could be grain to glass in 14-17 days, although due to a decent pipeline a freshly filled keg will often sit in my basement anywhere from a couple of weeks to several months before it makes it to a tap. With proper pitch rates and ferm temp control, there's really no need to leave the beer on the yeast more than 14 days. My rule is to cold crash 3 days after the krausen drops and keg at 12-14 days. Add another 2 days to get some decent carbonation and it's a done deal.