Cloning HopHands by Tired Hands Brewing Company

[mintyice]

Tasting some chilled/semi-carbed/super young 1318 now. Aroma is spot on, if not better than the real deal. Super aromatic and delicious. Might be too early to tell, but 1318 definitely gives the same kind of body and mouthfeel as Conan and blows 1217 out of the water for this beer. This might be the closest I've come to emulating Tired Hands' style which leads me to believe this could be the right yeast. I'll put my theory to the test when I visit this weekend. It needs another week or so in the keg to condition and carb up, but it's tasting mighty fine right now.

 

[mintyice]

left - TH, right - clone

I went to Tired Hands over the weekend so I have some brief notes on the differences.

This is the closest I've come to a clone, and if I didn't do a side by side I'd say this was spot on, but doing a side by side the differences are rather obvious. I'm probably 95% there now.

-99% sure the yeast is the same one (1318)
-clone is danker but I used some Mosaic in the dry hop. clone aroma smells like straight bagged pellets, HH aroma is better; less 'raw', more juicy citrus fruit. I need to work on my dry hop technique. Maybe less contact time??
-clone is a tad darker
-HH is maltier, pale ale malt is necessary for this. (I used 2row) Oats could maybe be upped to 17.5% (not sure if pale ale malt would necessitate this)
-HH is more floral/citrus in aroma
-clone hop flavor is pretty spot on, but it differs in malt presence and overall smoothness via malt. clone comes off more like a IPA (drier, but I think pale ale malt could fix it, might also mash a little higher next time?), HH is very much a hoppy pale; smooth hoppy AND malty.

 

[Coff]

Great notes there. I'll be using 1318 shortly on this beer as well, heard from a good source that its what TH uses and your experiences support that.

I have always used Pale Malt on this beer, I always prefer it over 2-row. Despite how heavily hopped this beer is you still need a nice base malt to support it. I am actually thinking about increasing the oast a little bit again to. I really like the beer with 15% Oats but I the flavor contribution from the Oats is in the background a little more than I want.

Cheers.

 

[Coff]

Quick question about IBU's. When I plug my numbers into Brewtoad for a 6 gallon batch, I'm getting 42 IBU's with 0.6 oz of 17.5%AA Columbus at 60 minutes. Why is the original recipe getting 47 IBU's with only 0.25oz of Columbus?

Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG Color
5.0 lb Maris Otter Pale (UK) Any 41 % Mash 38 3 °L
5.0 lb 2-Row (US) Any 41 % Mash 37 1 °L
2.0 lb Flaked Oats Any 16 % Boil 33 2 °L
Hops

Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
0.6 oz Columbus (US) 60 min First Wort Pellet 17.5%
0.5 oz Amarillo (US) 5 min Boil Pellet 9.3%
0.5 oz Centennial (US) 5 min Boil Pellet 10.5%
0.5 oz Simcoe (US) 5 min Boil Pellet 13.0%
0.25 oz Centennial (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 10.5%
0.25 oz Amarillo (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 9.3%
0.25 oz Simcoe (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%
0.5 oz Amarillo (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 9.3%
0.5 oz Centennial (US)1 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 10.5%
0.5 oz Simcoe (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 13.0%
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product Attenuation
Vermont Ale 78.0%
Predicted Stats

Batch Size 6.0 gal Boil Time60 minEfficiency67.0%
1.049 OG 1.011 FG 37 IBU 5.0% ABV 3 SRM

Brewtoad just might calculate FWH additions differently. Dont worry about it too much, just get your IBUs within range and youre fine. This beer really isnt about the bitterness, which there is little, its all about the flavor/aroma hops as well as the yeast. I dont even think the iBUs calculated in my original recipe is what I really get in the beer, doesnt take like a nearly 50IBU beer thats for sure.

 

[dstar26t]

I too did a batch with 1318 on 2/14. Mashed at 145F for 60 minutes then 160F for 15 minutes to finish conversion. Pitched at 64F and held for 36 hours then linearly ramped over 3 days to 70F. 1.0585 OG down to 1.010 as of last night so I dryhopped and capped since there was no more off gassing. I did not see the everlasting krausen last night that people talk about...it was gone. I was worried about this yeast attenuating but 82.2% ADF is great with an all malt gist (Pauls Mild and 15% flaked oats). Tasted and smelled great even before dryhopping and with all that yeast in there. I have another isolate slanted from a growler of fresh HopHands that I will try and compare to this batch. I didn't love the beer that the last isolate produced and have changed my procedure to reduce the chance of picking their Saison yeast which may have been what happened.

 

[cuda6pak]

Any new tasting/comparisons on this clone? I'm ready to brew up a second batch, 10 gallons this time.

 

[mintyice]

Any new tasting/comparisons on this clone? I'm ready to brew up a second batch, 10 gallons this time.

I started a blog post about it but never got around to finishing it. Basically, use Wyeast 1318 if you haven't been because so much of the flavor and mouthfeel comes from that yeast. Pale ale malt is required to get that layer of malt complexity. Mosaic can be subbed for Simcoe if you want something a little fruitier.

 

[Coff]

^^^ Great advice, he may even know this beer better than me at this point.

I havent used 1318 yet, although I plan to, but Ive brewed 4-5 variations on this with WLP644 and absolutely love it with that yeats. Once I get to 8 generations on that pitch I will trash it and start a few month cycle with 1318.

Ive also been playing with a higher Chloride:Sulfate ratio in this beer and am really loving the creamy texture I am getting with that.

 

[cuda6pak]

Great - I will try 1318 this next time.

Coff - what do your water profile numbers look like and mash pH for this beer?

 

[mintyice]

Great - I will try 1318 this next time.

Coff - what do your water profile numbers look like and mash pH for this beer?

Another aspect I've been messing with for this recipe. I tried high sulfate (~300ppm) in one batch and it was kind of off putting. It had a mineraly aftertaste I wasn't a huge fan of. Good for boosting the perceived bitterness of IPAs but of out place for this beer.

According to Bru'n water, with the 1318 batch I did:
~115ppm Ca
5ppm Mg
10pp Sodium
120ppm Sulfate
100ppm Chloride
-2ppm Bicarbonate
300 total hardness
-2 alkalinity
-87 RA

I think a pretty balanced So4/Cl ratio is key for this beer, but it's still something I'm playing with. I aimed for around 5.3ph but since I don't actually measure who knows what it was.

My existing water is pretty soft, so I usually only add CaCl, Gypsum and lactic acid.

 

[droder1]

what temp is everyone fermenting at with 1318 ?

 

[govner1]

I'd keep it in the 65°-68° range. Maybe start a little cooler and let it rise slowly to 68°

 

[mintyice]

I either started at 66 or 68 and rose to ~70-72. You can push 1318 a little to get more fruity esters that complement the hops, but temp is something I have to experiment with more. Everything I read about 1318 says you can ferment it on the higher side without getting weird.

 

[Ben58]

WY 1318 on order and I have another question in regards to the base malt. What do you think about using Muntons Pearl malt at 3.3L?

 

[mintyice]

WY 1318 on order and I have another question in regards to the base malt. What do you think about using Muntons Pearl malt at 3.3L?

Pearl would be a great sub but you may need to do a larger 60 min addition to balance out the added sweetness, especially when combined with 1318 which also leaves beer sweeter.

I have a version of this on tap brewed with Buzz Bullets, Hallertau Blanc, and Azacca. I fermented it with Conan just to try it out in this recipe and I kind of hate that yeast now. It's super juicy (citrus, tropical, almost fruit punch like. lot's of mango), but Conan left some yeast stress in the final beer which is a tad distracting. Conan also made it a tad too creamy and thick so it's not quite as refreshing as I would have liked.

Just brewed up this recipe yesterday but with Nelson Sauvin and Lemon Drop, however I'm fermenting it with TYB Saison Blend and Wyeast 3711. Should be an interesting spin on it.

 

[Ben58]

Thanks for the advice. Now I need to fix my stir plate.

 

[Ben58]

@ Mintyice
As an alternative to the 1318, if I used 1217 in it's stead and the Pearl malt, do you think the balance of sweetness will be maintained?

 

[mintyice]

@ Mintyice
As an alternative to the 1318, if I used 1217 in it's stead and the Pearl malt, do you think the balance of sweetness will be maintained?

Nope, 1318 is what makes this beer as close to a clone as possible. 1318 does magical things for the mouthfeel and malt/hop balance.

 

[jammin]

So is there a consensus on best recipe yet? I see 1318 is the best yeast choice.

 

[Coff]

I just brewed it with 1318 the other day, will post a follow up with what I feel is a final recipe. The grist and hoping is spot on with ~18% Oats imo.

A lot of folks think 1318 is the correct strain so Im excited to taste the results.

 

[mintyice]

I just brewed it with 1318 the other day, will post a follow up with what I feel is a final recipe. The grist and hoping is spot on with ~18% Oats imo.

A lot of folks think 1318 is the correct strain so Im excited to taste the results.

Yeah I was going to suggest uping the oats with 1318. The real thing is way oatier than 15%.

 

[drunkmonk59]

I brewed 11gal of this on Sunday. Just some slight changes. Used 17% Oates. Hopped it to 40 Ibu. Mashed at 153-154. Did a 2oz mix at flame out and whirlpool for 20 min, then dropped the temp to 170 and added 1.25oz each and kept it spinning for about another 50 minutes or so while I cleaned up. The temp got down into the 140's by the time I chilled down. Used 1318 in one carboy and s04 in the other. Started at 64 degrees and slowly ramped it up to 69 over the last 4 days. S04 has dropped completely out but still a krausen on the 1318. Beautiful fruity smell from the keezer. I anticipate things are done and will probably start the dry hop tomorrow after a gravity reading.

Will post an update when this is all done. Can't wait!! Thanks for the work on this one Ed!!

 

[atom]

looking forward to your updates @coff and @drunkmonk59 . i plan to brew another 11 gallons in about a month...already ordered the 1318.

quick question... are flaked oats from the lhbs the same thing as "old fashioned oats" in the grocery story? i've always just bought at the lhbs, but if i can save some $...

 

[exileonmainst]

I brewed this on 5/2 and just tried a bottle yesterday. I think I screwed something up with the oats because mine is much more clear than it should be.

I did BIAB with 11 lb 2-row and 2 lb flaked oats (85/15 ratio). I realize now I should have used pale ale malt, but I can't imagine that making TOO much of a difference? Mashed at 150 for 60 min with a 10 min mash out at 170.

I ended up with an OG of 1.056, but brewer's friend estimated I'd be at 1.062. I also finished at 1.011 when brewer's friend estimated 1.014. It almost seems like the oats did not convert, if that's possible?

 

[Coff]

Yeah I was going to suggest uping the oats with 1318. The real thing is way oatier than 15%.

Ive brewed this recipes with 12.5%, 15%, 18%, and 20% with 15% being used 3-4 times and I honestly liked the 20% oats batch the best.

 

[mintyice]

S04 has dropped completely out but still a krausen on the 1318.

Yeah I find 1318 ferments out super quick but that krausen just hangs around forever unless you give it a little swirl. After all it is a true "top cropping" yeast.

quick question... are flaked oats from the lhbs the same thing as "old fashioned oats" in the grocery story? i've always just bought at the lhbs, but if i can save some $...

Yeah I've used both flaked oats from the LHBS and just grocery store oats. They are totally the same thing. The ones at the grocery store are just chopped up more. They taste the same too. I just get a big box of 9 lbs of the stuff from BJ's now.

 

[rjstew]

So this past Saturday was my girlfriends sisters wedding with my Hoppy Pale Ale on tap. The taps started pouring at 5pm and by 8:15pm all 15 gallons were kicked. I had person after person come up to me to say how amazing the beer was and how they've never had anything like it. More than one person said "What ingredients and flavor did you add to this?" They were shocked when I responded "Grain, hops, yeast, water". Apparently people are afraid of hops. One guy come up to me and say "Hi, I'm an investor in a local brewery. I just wanted to let you know that your beer is outstanding. I'd be proud to pour this at our brewery". Multiple people said I should start selling it because I'd make a killing.

I'd say that was a success. I owe you for all the advice Coff!

This is the recipe I used.

Mashed at 157-158. Started to ferment at 66 for 3 days then raised temp 1 degree per day to 70. I somehow managed 80% attenuation.

Batch & Boil

Batch Size
18.0 gal
Boil Time
60 min
Properties

OG
1.057
FG
1.015
IBU
18
ABV
5.5%
Color
3 SRM
Balance
0.32 – Sweet
Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster Use PPG
18.0 lb 46 % 2-Row (US) Any Mash 37
14.0 lb 35 % Maris Otter Pale (UK) Any Mash 38
7.0 lb 17 % Flaked Oats Any Boil 33
Hops

Amount Hop Time Use Form AA
1.1 oz Columbus (US) 60 min First Wort Pellet 17.5%
1.8 oz Amarillo (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 9.3%
1.8 oz Centennial (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 10.5%
1.8 oz Simcoe (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 13.0%
3.6 oz Amarillo (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 9.3%
3.6 oz Centennial (US)1 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 10.5%
3.6 oz Simcoe (US) 0 min Whirlpool Pellet 13.0%
2.7 oz Centennial (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 10.5%
2.7 oz Simcoe (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%
2.7 oz Amarillo (US) 5 days Dry Hop Pellet 9.3%

Yeasts

Name Lab/Product Attenuation
London Ale III Wyeast 1318 73.0%

 

[Coff]

Yeah I find 1318 ferments out super quick but that krausen just hangs around forever unless you give it a little swirl. After all it is a true "top cropping" yeast.



Yeah I've used both flaked oats from the LHBS and just grocery store oats. They are totally the same thing. The ones at the grocery store are just chopped up more. They taste the same too. I just get a big box of 9 lbs of the stuff from BJ's now.

Ditto, Ive used the Oats from homebrew shops, Quaker Oats and bulk Oats from Whole Foods. They all work well.

 

[Coff]

So this past Saturday was my girlfriends sisters wedding with my Hoppy Pale Ale on tap. The taps started pouring at 5pm and by 8:15pm all 15 gallons were kicked. I had person after person come up to me to say how amazing the beer was and how they've never had anything like it. More than one person said "What ingredients and flavor did you add to this?" They were shocked when I responded "Grain, hops, yeast, water". Apparently people are afraid of hops. One guy come up to me and say "Hi, I'm an investor in a local brewery. I just wanted to let you know that your beer is outstanding. I'd be proud to pour this at our brewery". Multiple people said I should start selling it because I'd make a killing.

I'd say that was a success. I owe you for all the advice Coff!

This is the recipe I used.

Mashed at 157-158. Started to ferment at 66 for 3 days then raised temp 1 degree per day to 70. I somehow managed 80% attenuation.

Thats awesome man, cheers!

 

[Pratty]

I found this thread last week as I was trying to find a nice hoppy ale that didn't use the usual crystal malt. So after reading this and the blog I checked the available stocks and had flaked oats, S04 ale yeast and the right hops so I made it. :rockin:

Dry hopped her today and am looking forward to getting it packaged and through the taps.

OG - 1.048
FG - 1.010 ( fermented out in 4days @ 18c )
IBU - 33
SRM - 4.5

85% Golden Promise Ale
15% Flaked Oats

Mash Profile
34c/30m, 53c/20m, 65c/60m, 73c/15m, 78c/20m

60min boil

Columbus @ 60m
Amarillo, Centennial & Simcoe @ 5m
Amarillo, Centennial & Simcoe - Hop stand 10mins, whirl pooled 10mins

Yeast - SO4 re-hydrated 2 packets and pitched @ 17c

Dry Hopped ( what was left in each bag )
Amarillo 38g
Centennial 38g
Simcoe 30g

Will leave that for 5days at 19c and cold crash before kegging.

Thanks for the recipe and I will post a pic when its carbonated.