Clarification on Munich/Vienna malts in LoDo brewing

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xdosequisx

Don't mind me, just hurtling through the void...
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On the lowoxygenbrewing page, it is noted that

  • Vienna and Munich malts blended in small amounts (≤5%) with Pilsner can add muddy flavor elements as less Sodium Metabisulfite (NaMeta, SMB) is used (flavor intensity increases as system “tightness” increases)
  • Consider blending Munich malts starting at ~17-18 EBC for beers like Dunkel, Marzen, etc.

Is this suggesting that Vienna and Munich malts should be avoided in Helles Lagers, or rather that they should be included at >5%? In the GBF paper, three example recipes are provided: One with Pils only, one with 10% Vienna, and one with 10%/5% Vienna
 
Sounds like a good post for the LOB site.

Most common Helles recipe on LOB these days seems to be 95/5 Pils and Carahell (and acidified as necessary).

People’s tastes are different too. That is the opinion of one person. You may like the Vienna or Munich in some quantity, but you won’t know until you try.

I like my pils to have some Munich in it for depth. Even 90/5/5 adds enough depth for me. Currently have 85/10/5 and 75/20/5 on deck to see how much Munich I really like in my pils. Should be a fun experiment.
 
Just completed first LoDo brew, I did a Helles Bock with 65% Pils and 35% light Munich. Lets see how it turns out!
 
Stay posted, should be done lagering in about a month.

What I can say now is that something went very wrong with Lauter/Sparging. OG was only 1.039, target was 1.059. I was initially thinking that it was too coarse of a crush since it was the also the first time using a new grain mill and we went pretty coarse with the settings to minimize oxidation. We adjusted finer for the next batches and had the same issue though, so now I'm thinking it has to do with the no-stir underletting technique for dough-in and batch sparges. Any and all advice welcome on this one, I'm stumped.
 
Stay posted, should be done lagering in about a month.

What I can say now is that something went very wrong with Lauter/Sparging. OG was only 1.039, target was 1.059. I was initially thinking that it was too coarse of a crush since it was the also the first time using a new grain mill and we went pretty coarse with the settings to minimize oxidation. We adjusted finer for the next batches and had the same issue though, so now I'm thinking it has to do with the no-stir underletting technique for dough-in and batch sparges. Any and all advice welcome on this one, I'm stumped.

I had the same issue, though probably not related to crush. I've addressed it by doing very gentle stirs of the mash, once at the outset, after underletting, and once about 20-30 minutes in. I turn off recirculation when I stir.

My theory is the grain bed needs to be thinned a bit and if you underlet too slowly then water will channel upwards to the top and the bed is just too densely-packed. Maybe that can be addressed with crush, I don't know.

I'm using campden tablets in the strike water and I use a mash cap, so my hope is that whatever small oxygen pickup there is (hoping it's small!) can be offset by the campden and the temp of the mash.

I just made a Kolsch doing that approach, and you would not believe how good it tasted at 11 days after pitching. That was after self-carbing as much as I could in the Spike conical I use (I get about 7 or 7.5 psi after crashing), and then doing a quick burst-carb over 6 hours to get it to about 11 psi.

Eleven days in the keg, and tastes like....wow. The malt flavors are popping so whatever oxidation damage was done by the very gentle stirring of the mash didn't seem to have much of a bad effect. Of course, hard to compare to what it might have been if I hadn't stirred :) but I took that beer to my LHBC meeting, on the 11th day after brewing, and it was very, very well received.

My son brews this recipe; I asked him how it was after a period of lagering. He says he doesn't know, the beer doesn't last long enough to find out. :)
 
Thanks for the tip, I had a feeling it might be the stirring. Currently I'm using a steel mash tun and underletting to 100% full then locking down the lid so that there's no headspace, then draining and underletting to full two more times to sparge. No stirring whatsoever. I think next time I'll give it a gentle stir.

I've also been having an issue with temperature equilibration using the underletting method- the strike water is getting pretty cool by the time it reaches the top of the grain bed. I think a gentle stir would fix that as well. At some point @Overkill is going to finish his crazy automated eHERMS rig and we'll switch to brewing on that, hopefully doing away with all of these issues.

On a sidenote, mind sharing your Kolsch recipe?
 
Thanks for the tip, I had a feeling it might be the stirring. Currently I'm using a steel mash tun and underletting to 100% full then locking down the lid so that there's no headspace, then draining and underletting to full two more times to sparge. No stirring whatsoever. I think next time I'll give it a gentle stir.

I've also been having an issue with temperature equilibration using the underletting method- the strike water is getting pretty cool by the time it reaches the top of the grain bed. I think a gentle stir would fix that as well. At some point @Overkill is going to finish his crazy automated eHERMS rig and we'll switch to brewing on that, hopefully doing away with all of these issues.

On a sidenote, mind sharing your Kolsch recipe?

No problem, but it's a little process-specific, you'll have to see if you like it.

Here it is; it's about 10 percent too heavy, but I'm trying to compensate for losses in the mash tun, hoses, and so on.

6# Pils malt
6# 2-row
.75 # White Wheat
.75 # Munich Malt

3ml Hop Shot at 60 minutes (it's for bittering, in lieu of a normal bittering hop)
1 Whirlfloc tablet, 15 minutes
.5 oz Hallertau Hops, 5 min

WLP029, pitched directly with no starter. Yeah. There's a thread on here somewhere about that. I attended a yeast workshop put on by Chris White at the BYO boot camp in March, along w/ my son. White says he wouldn't do starters unless it was a big beer, he'd just pitch a tube of yeast and that would be that.

My son has been doing that, did it with his Kolsch, so I thought, well, why not. Still trying to wrap my head around it.

Anyway, I used 8.25 gallons of strike water, heated to 139 degrees. I always use 1 gallon of tap water (which is pretty mineralized) plus the balance in RO water. I added 2gr gypsum, 4gr Calcium Chloride, 2gr Epsom Salts, 1gr BrewtanB, 1.5 campden tablets (crushed), and 2 ml lactic acid.

I have a RIMS so we did a step mash with the first step at 132, held it there for 10 minutes after underletting (and stirring--you're right, stirring will make temps more homogeneous throughout the mash), then ramped it up to 149, which took 15 minutes or so. Then held it there for an hour. I was just following my son's procedure with the step mash; not sure there's any great value in it, but he has a grainfather so that's what he did. To try to approximate his process I did so as well. My recipe is somewhat different--his has all Pils malt but I've found the LODO stuff makes the Pils flavor go over the top, so I cut it in half with 2-row. I also added the Munich for a bit more complexity.

BTW, that's something else I've tended to do--go a bit longer with the mash. For me, a 60-minute mash would be after underletting and then stirring, starting the timer then. That's arbitrary, of course. I've tended to let it go to maybe 70 or 75 minutes with this, but I'm also doing some refractometer reads to see where I'm at.

OG was 1.055; that's a tad high, I'm still trying to dial all this stuff in. It finished at 1.006 (!) for a final ABV of 6.3%. Lots of flavor but finishes pretty dry. Very interesting.

Anyway, once that's done, into the kettle, simmering boil. Then chill and xfer to the fermenter. Pitch yeast, oxygenate, and wait. I set the temp at 60 degrees for fermentation. It took about 24 hours for any visible sign of activity. Four days after pitching, I sealed it up, then started to raise the temp to 69 degrees. Held it there for 2 days, then back to 60 for 36 hours, then crashed.

So....just writing about this makes me want to go have another one. :)
 
Sounds like a sexy brew. Have you played around different ratios of Pils:2-row at all?

Me and @Overkill did a Kolsch in a non-lodo format a few months ago which came out pretty nicely, Its high on the agenda to re-brew with lodo technique.

7# Admiral's Maltings Pilsner
3# Yolo Wheat
8gal Filtered SF spring water, no adjustment
Mash 148F for 60min, batch sparge 2x at 168F

.5oz Hallertau @ 60
1.0oz Tett @ 15
1.5oz Hallertau @ 5
Forgot to add whirlfloc

WLP029 with 1L starter

5.5gal final volume

We were aiming for a hoppier Kolsch like Fort Point's KSA, but using a hop spider brought it down to a more traditional level of hoppiness.
 
I have a different experience with underletting. IMO when the water is transferred too fast is when air gets entrained in the grain bed. 10 minutes to move 8 gallons of strike water works perfectly for me. I do not stir, in fact once the mash cap is in place it does not come off until it's time to empty the spent grain.

As for Kölsch grain bills this is what I prefer and is quite traditional:
85% pils /15% vienna
 
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