Clairifying Champagne Yeast vs Safale S-04

[RukusDM]

I was wondering if some of the more experienced cider makers have a similar experience with these two yeasts regarding Clarifying.

I've made 3 batches using Red Star Pasteur Yeast. 1 - 5 Gallon Batch and 2 - 3 Liter test batches.

I've also made 3 batches using Safale S-04 Yeast. 1 - 3 Gallon and 2 - 3 Liter test Batches.

The results each time has been the same. The Champagne yeast just does not want to clarify. The 5 Gallon batch I used fresh pressed UV pasturized juice. I assumed the cloudiness might have been due to me not using Pectic Enzyme even though the juice was crystal clear.

I next tried frozen concentrate with the Champagne yeast and got the same results. I also tried using Store bought juice. Same results.

I next used the Safale and all 3 batches with the same juices as with the Champagne yeast and all 3 are crystal clear after completed.

It seems that the Ale yeasts are much better at house keeping when they are done.

I started the 5 Gallon batch with the Champagne Yeast on Tue, October 12, 2010. It is still in my secondary and has still not cleared. I've used Gelatin, Sparkleoid, and it is still cloudy. I do have some trub at the bottom of the 5 Gallon glass carboy, but this stuff just doesn't want to clear.

Any of you more experienced brewers have similar results?

 

[Edcculus]

I'm thinking this has a lot to do with flocculation. Flocculation is a measure of how fast yeast clump together and fall to the bottom of the fermenter. Some are extremely fast (English strains) and others very low (Weizen yeast).

I'm assuming champagne yeast is much lower flocculating. That would make sense because champagne makers are asking the yeast to ferment a 10-13% wine, then carobonate in the bottle to 4+ volumes. No small task. Champagne makers don't care about a high flocculating yeast since they do the Méthode Champenoise ( inverting bottles at an angle and slowly turned over the course of a year. The neck is then frozen, cork removed, frozen trub removed and re-corked). FWIW, I think it took about 4 months to clear a batch I did with champagne yeast. Closer to a year before it was crystal clear.

S-04 is a dry English strain. Most English strains were cultivated for cask ales. They needed a strain that would flocculate like a ton of bricks when fermentation was done so they ended up with a very clear beer.


Also, I'm not a huge fan of champagne yeast in ciders. It ferments fast and dry. It tends to strip out all of the apple flavors and leaves a very vinous product that takes a long time to age to a drinkable state.

 

[RukusDM]

I'm thinking this has a lot to do with flocculation. Flocculation is a measure of how fast yeast clump together and fall to the bottom of the fermenter. Some are extremely fast (English strains) and others very low (Weizen yeast).

I'm assuming champagne yeast is much lower flocculating. That would make sense because champagne makers are asking the yeast to ferment a 10-13% wine, then carobonate in the bottle to 4+ volumes. No small task. Champagne makers don't care about a high flocculating yeast since they do the Méthode Champenoise ( inverting bottles at an angle and slowly turned over the course of a year. The neck is then frozen, cork removed, frozen trub removed and re-corked). FWIW, I think it took about 4 months to clear a batch I did with champagne yeast. Closer to a year before it was crystal clear.

S-04 is a dry English strain. Most English strains were cultivated for cask ales. They needed a strain that would flocculate like a ton of bricks when fermentation was done so they ended up with a very clear beer.


Also, I'm not a huge fan of champagne yeast in ciders. It ferments fast and dry. It tends to strip out all of the apple flavors and leaves a very vinous product that takes a long time to age to a drinkable state.

Thanks for the description of the yeast styles. The taste of the 5 Gallon batch of Cider Wine I have is about 17% - 18%. I used the Champagne Yeast for that. It ended up going all the way to 0.990 SG. Pretty darn dry.

As you had mentioned, It did strip all of the apple flavor away. It was quite harsh when it was done. It now, in this short a time, has mellowed out pretty well. It tastes allot like a Chardonnay, and actually isn't bad at all.

I'm probably going to leave it in the Secondary Glass Carboy for another month or so. I don't know if I should rack again to get it off the small amount of trub at the bottom or not.

I guess the bottom line, for me anyway is I'll be using the Safale S-04 or the Notty in any future batches.

I was quite amazed with the S-04, as you could see when it was approaching the end as the yeast had compacted in the bottom and large clumps of it would bubble up like it was boiling. When it had finished, the whole bottom was covered with a nice think layer of trub and the cider was clear.

 

[pimento]

I've used ec-1118 in several ciders and it clears remarkably quickly. It also leaves quite a bit of apple flavor.

It's becoming one of my favorite cider yeasts, quick, clean and leaves the cider a nice amber color.

The only problem is stopping it. If you are backsweetening and pasteurizing you really have to watch your test bottles, because it will fully carb them in 2-3 days.

 

[RukusDM]

I've used ec-1118 in several ciders and it clears remarkably quickly. It also leaves quite a bit of apple flavor.

It's becoming one of my favorite cider yeasts, quick, clean and leaves the cider a nice amber color.

The only problem is stopping it. If you are backsweetening and pasteurizing you really have to watch your test bottles, because it will fully carb them in 2-3 days.

I'll give that one a shot as well

By the way, The gauge is working quite well with my cider. Its up around 12.5 Lbs now. This would work great for your ec-1118 as you could bottle it at the SG you like and calc the sugar and just wait for the pressure then Pasturize. Thats what I did