Cider vinegar questions here?

[CMcPherson]

I guess that I could ask in the food sections but it seems more appropriate here.
I have begun making cider vinegar and just want to confirm what I understand:
1) I MUST wait for fermentation to complete before adding Acetobacter.
2) I MUST use an open container so the cider can oxidize.
3) Acetic Acid % directly relates to the ABV % of the cider. (5% ABV cider = 5% vinegar)

So that's what I think that I know.

Some questions that I have are:
A) How do I know when the vinegar is complete?
B) How best to separate the mother from the finished vinegar?

Am I on the right track?

 

[dmtaylor]

Gosh... you'd think for all the times I've made vinegar I would know more about it.... but for me it's always been an accident. It's happened to me 3 times now in the past 5 years or so since I started to make cider. If I leave my cider go in the fermenter for just a little too long, sometimes it turns into vinegar just from the acetobacter that is present in the air itself.

1) I've always experienced the vinegar only after fermentation was already complete, so you probably have a point there.

2) I've experienced vinegar in closed containers, although it does happen more often when exposed to a greater surface area of air.

3) Acetic acid percent, I'm not certain. I guess I could look it up..... yeah, it looks like you're right... alcohol turns directly into acetic acid with all the same number of atoms, so 5% of one will give 5% of the other.

This does assume 100% conversion, though, which might not be the case, at least not right away. Probably takes a couple months?? That's just a guess. I was a chemical engineering major once upon a time but that was a looooooong time ago. When I've gotten vinegar, it seemed to happen pretty fast, actually, within a month or two, and then was pretty stable from there. Eventually a pancake shaped mother forms on top and can simply be "peeled off" or carefully picked up off the surface. For my current accidental batch of vinegar, there is no mother yet and the vinegar is super cloudy. Eventually I may add gelatin to knock out whatever wild critters are in there, then rack it off (siphon).

I always heat pasteurize mine once clear to stabilize it further although I'm not certain that's even necessary. I heat mine to about 160-170 F for 15 minutes. This will prevent anything from changing anymore and keep it shelf stable for a very long time. I have some I've kept for years and its character really hasn't changed much if at all over that time -- I've used it for washing my hair, and have even tried cooking with it, and it seems to work fine, just like your regular commercial cider vinegar, but maybe even more concentrated / more sour and thus with more character so less is needed.

 

[WVMJ]

One big you missed is its best not to sulfite your cider you plan on turning into vinegar, seperate your vinegar making from your cider making areas and equipment, keep that mother, you should be able to rack from underneath easily. We have some plastic big mouth bubblers we just stretch a pair of pantyhose over the top to keep bugs out and put it on top of the kitchen freezer to keep warm. Lots of good info on the web about making ACV and conversion factors. One cool thing about making your own is you get to choose the apples that go into it, if you want to oak it, flavor it etc. WVMJ

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you Dave.

One big you missed is its best not to sulfite your cider you plan on turning into vinegar...

Why is that?

So far the mother is stringy snot at the bottom of the jug.

Do you have any linked suggestions for web info?

I'm very surprised that there isn't a sub-forum here for vinegar making.

 

[Maylar]

I'm very surprised that there isn't a sub-forum here for vinegar making.

A gallon of cider vinegar would last me the rest of my life.

 

[CMcPherson]

I go through at least 5 gals a week. :rockin:
Unfortunately, I know that it's just white vinegar with flavoring and color added.

 

[Maylar]

Yuh but you're selling pulled pork and probably cole slaw, and if it's Carolina style you be usin' some vinegar. Me, I use 2 TBSP in my pie crust recipe that I only make at holidays. The qt bottle I have is probably 10 yrs old.

 

[CMcPherson]

Oh, no doubt that my usage is not average.
I also plan to add it to my inventory of retail homemade items that I sell in my store.

 

[Evilgrin]

While homemade is tasty, you save very little making cider vinegar yourself. My black currant vinegar on the other hand is quite expensive in the store. A quart can run into the $30+ range.

I use a quart Mason jar, the band and a coffee filter or two under the band. I use a little unpasteurized vinegar with mother to start the process. Give is a good stir weekly and wait several months. I thinned mine with a little water because the wine was very dry. You might have a longer wait if working with higher ABVs. 7% acidity is some strong vinegar so its not an issue really.

This kind of vinegar makes a fantastic vinaigrette. Ive got a mulberry fermenting right now and part of it will be turned into vinegar.

 

[WVMJ]

Homemade apple cider vinegar in a Carolina sauce is one reason we wanted to make our own higher quality vinegar and eventually some of the trees we planted are favored for making vinegar so we hope to make it even better.

The bacteria is sensitive to sulfur, that is one reason people making cider add it to the juice at the start and finish, to keep it from turning into vinegar. If you look at a Mother for sale there should be instructions posted for it telling how much alcohol, temps etc to make it easier to make your vinegar.

 

[CMcPherson]

While homemade is tasty, you save very little making cider vinegar yourself.

I'm sure that you're correct.
As long as I can get a good result from cost effective apple juice, I'll have a roasted pepper vinegar sauce that no other caterer/restaurateur/competitor in this area can duplicate.

The bacteria is sensitive to sulfur, that is one reason people making cider add it to the juice at the start and finish, to keep it from turning into vinegar. If you look at a Mother for sale there should be instructions posted for it telling how much alcohol, temps etc to make it easier to make your vinegar.

Hmm... some of the cider that I used had Sulfites and some didn't. We'll see what happens I guess.
I got a couple jars of Braggs organic ACV but there was no advice on how to preserve the mother. I'm sure that they'd rather I just buy a new jar rather than making my own.

 

[WVMJ]

The particles that are on the bottom are pieces of the mother, that is all you need to get started, Braggs bacteria is alive, its not pasteurized, at least not the ones that we have purchased. The thing on sulfites, sometimes the sulfites get bound up or reach a lower threshold that the bacteria can tolerate, if you were going to make a batch of cider that you wanted to purposely turn into cider just leave the KM out to make it easier for the bacteria to work. You have a lot of orchards around you, you may want to start thinking on making it the 50 gallon level in old wine barrels or big blue drums, imagine how much better it will taste when you tell people you are using your own homemade cider in your homemade barbecue sauces and slaw.

 

[CMcPherson]

Large batches are my plan!
I have two 50 gal rainwater barrels that I plan on using for my vinegar.
As far as orchard juice goes... that may be more costly than I want to use for vinegar.
I'm hoping that FAJC and a good fast Champagne yeast will do the trick.
From what little that I know, FAJC is made with sweet dessert apples rather than the more acidic tart apples that we would normally want for cider.
It seems that the best apples for vinegar (sweet/low acid) are the opposite of what's best for cider (less sweet/higher acid).

My biggest question was how do I know when it's strong enough. The best answer that I could find was relying on taste and smell.
I finally came accross some info that teaches how to use titration to measure acetic acid.

The particles that are on the bottom are pieces of the mother, that is all you need to get started,...

All that I see are references to it being jelly like and floating on the surface. I'm betting that this will happen as it grows and becomes more mature.

The thing on sulfites, sometimes the sulfites get bound up or reach a lower threshold that the bacteria can tolerate, if you were going to make a batch of cider that you wanted to purposely turn into cider (I'm sure that you meant vinegar) just leave the KM out to make it easier for the bacteria to work.

That's what I'll do in the future. The small test batch that I'm doing now was a mix of the remnants of 3 batches. only 1 batch (my wild ferment batch) had a single addition of 25 PPM in the beginning to ward off the lesser wild spoilage yeasts. I'm betting that is was completely bound up by now.

*Am I the only fool here TRYING to get vinegar! :smack:

 

[WVMJ]

How do you do a TA for acetic acid?

Tom Buford wrote a cool book on apples in the USA, many different kinds of apples he mentions specifically for vinegar.

If you are going to make your own apple cider vinegar vs buying it, why would you buy AJC, probably grown overseas, and try to make a high quality vinegar from it? As they say, crap in crap out As a business I would think if you found an orchard that pressed their own you could get a professional discount on 100 gal of raw sweet cider.

What I mean is, you are going to tell your customers you personally made the apple cider vinegar that you use in your custom sauces, from frozen apple juice made in China, sounds delicious

WVMJ

 

[CMcPherson]

Below are links to the info that I found for Acetic Acid titration.

http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benefits.com/vinegar-titration.html
http://www.smc.edu/projects/28/Chemistry_10_Experiments/Ch10_Titration.pdf
http://infohost.nmt.edu/~jaltig/Vinegar.pdf

Your points about juice quality are valid and I agree for the most part.
I'm not trying to make a high quality ACV. Just a base for a heavily flavored pepper vinegar sauce that is actually made from apples.
My point is that even FAJC is a large step up from what is on the shelves being sold as ACV. At least mine will actually be made from apples.
I wouldn't necessarily call FAJC or the un-concentrated store bought juice "crap". Both are used by so many here for their cider that I'm comfortable making ACV with it.
I've never bought into the "China is bad" opinion.
The logistics of transporting 100 gals of fresh juice is a nonstarter.
For actual cider though... I do totally agree and will only use good quality fresh juice.

 

[Evilgrin]

As long as I can get a good result from cost effective apple juice, I'll have a roasted pepper vinegar sauce that no other caterer/restaurateur/competitor in this area can duplicate.

I lacto ferment my pepper mashes and only add a tiny bit of vinegar before bottling. I usually use rice wine vinegar or chardonnay vinegar.

 

[CMcPherson]

I lacto ferment...

I just picked up these two books:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/160358286X/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931498237/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm very excited to learn more about this ancient cooking style.

 

[Evilgrin]

Sauerkraut only requires cabbage, canning salt and a few days at room temperature. Fermented peppers are pretty similar and so is kimchi. I use a little juice from my homemade kraut to get a "jump start" when fermenting peppers for hot sauce. It takes them longer to ferment than cabbage and until the lacto bacteria gets a good hold, it is susceptible to bad bacteria.

I pasteurize my hot sauce so most of the health benefit from the "good bacteria" is gone. My kraut and kimchi though are not and i often eat them uncooked. They will keep in the refrigerator for months without spoiling when made/stored correctly.

I would offer one suggestion about making vinegar. Make some rice wine and turn it to vinegar. Its cheap, easy and works well for things like hot sauce. All it needs is some time and a cool place to rest.

 

[Raenon]

If cost and transport/storage of so much juice is a concern:

http://www.rppsupply.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=APPLE-JUICE-1-Bottle

Half a gallon of 7:1 concentrate will make 4 gallons of juice for $15, and it's shelf stable.
I know that this brand is fermentable too, from personal experience.
Flavor and aroma compares favorably to fajc or motts/tree top bottled juice.
I actually use it in ciders and apple wines as my sugar addition so as to not dilute flavor with white sugar or the like though brown sugar still has a place in my fermenters for color and residual molasses sweetness)