Cider in primary seems a bit too acidic

[byronyasgur]

My cider is in primary and I took a sample and it seems to me like it might end up a bit too acidic ( lemon juice type effect if that describes it ) ... it's not too bad but I'm wondering if I need to do something. I made dragon blood wine recently and it's got the same sort of level as that right after it's made, which concerned me at the time but after just a couple of weeks in the bottle the acidic taste in that fell way back. I'm wondering will it be the same story here or should I do something. I have acid reducing solution ( potassium carbonate ) in my bag of tricks - wondering should I add some or leave it alone.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

The sugar has all been fermented out, leaving behind a lot of malic (IIRC) acid - give it time for the various flavours to develop and balance.

 

[ten80]

^What he said!

Take a small sample (3-4 oz) and dose a measured amount of potassium carbonate solution. Taste the cider as you dose to see if an increase in pH can be attained without any off-flavors from the potassium. Scale up to full size if you can attain a reduced level of acidity without off-flavors. I've been considering this for a few of my acidic ciders that are still to acidic even after malolactic fermentation.

Otherwise, malolactic fermentation is an option. You may have to add a culture and warm the cider to 65F (ish)

 

[byronyasgur]

^What he said!

Take a small sample (3-4 oz) and dose a measured amount of potassium carbonate solution. Taste the cider as you dose to see if an increase in pH can be attained without any off-flavors from the potassium. Scale up to full size if you can attain a reduced level of acidity without off-flavors. I've been considering this for a few of my acidic ciders that are still to acidic even after malolactic fermentation.

Otherwise, malolactic fermentation is an option. You may have to add a culture and warm the cider to 65F (ish)

thanks - but actually it's still fermenting away so I don't even think all the sugar is gone - it's really not too bad just not great - it'd say it will end up well drinkable but I don't know if you'd drink a lot of it because it's a bit too acidic

Would I be able to wait till just before botting to add the potassium or would I have to do that in primary/secondary. I was going to rack it off the apples today. I have a ( very cheap ) ph meter and some buffering solution so I can check the ph and tweak it like you say but I'm actually leaving for a week I'd rather wait till I come back if at all possible. I had a taste of it last night and put the meter in it - it definitely tasted to acidic but this is only my second cider so I'm not sure whether it gets less acidic as it goes through conditioning or what ... but I put the meter in it and hopefully the meter wasn't calibrated properly because it showed up as 2.8. I'll calibrate the meter later and get a proper reading

 

[byronyasgur]

The sugar has all been fermented out, leaving behind a lot of malic (IIRC) acid - give it time for the various flavours to develop and balance.

thanks - actually it's still bubbling away though so it might even get more acidic I suppose.

when you say "give it time" would you think we'd probably be talking just a few weeks or would it be more like several months kind of ball park typically

If it's months then I think I'd prefer to alter it chemically because I don't really have a proper brewing pipeline setup yet and this will definitely not last too many months unless it's undrinkable ( which I doubt it will be )

 

[ten80]

The malic acid content will not increase during fermentation as malic acid comes from the apples you used; however, what I think TasunkaWitko meant was that the malic acid becomes more apparent as the sugar is consumed. Sugar balances acid and tannins.

2.8 pH is quite low, but you may be able to backsweeten when fermentation is complete to help balance it out. Or you can buffer the pH with potassium carbonate. I'd add the potassium carbonate to the secondary or cleared beer to avoid kicking up yeast and sediment when mixing it in.

Malolactic fermentation takes months, so it doesn't sound like your best option.

 

[byronyasgur]

The malic acid content will not increase during fermentation as malic acid comes from the apples you used; however, what I think TasunkaWitko meant was that the malic acid becomes more apparent as the sugar is consumed. Sugar balances acid and tannins.

yes thanks that's what I meant

2.8 pH is quite low, but you may be able to backsweeten when fermentation is complete to help balance it out. Or you can buffer the pH with potassium carbonate. I'd add the potassium carbonate to the secondary or cleared beer to avoid kicking up yeast and sediment when mixing it in.

Malolactic fermentation takes months, so it doesn't sound like your best option.

all good to know - didn't know malolactic took that long
I suppose then I'd have to add sorbate if I was backsweetening - didn't know that was an option with cider - is that how I'd do it or else wouldn't i get bottle bombs

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, guys -

Ten80 said it very well; thank you, sir!

I am not a "scientific" brewer or winemaker, and tend to think of wine or cider as taking several months or a year to make (probably longer than necessary, but all the more reason to get a pipeline started ). I made some of EdWort's Apfelwein, and noticed that it was quite tart at first, but smoothed out quite nicely later on, to the point where the apple character really came through in the aroma and the taste. Based on this, my own theory is that time heals almost everything - but at the same time, waiting can be a pain.

My dad is making some crabapple wine, following pretty much the same procedure that his father did, with a few additions such as campden tablets, pectic enzyme etc. Just last night, he transferred it from primary to secondary and we noticed the same thing - very tart, to the point of seeming acidic...but also with very nice apply flavor underneath. I told him that it might be 9 or 10 months before it starts to hit its stride...maybe even longer. His reply: "Well, I might wait 4 or 5 months...."

 

[byronyasgur]

Hi, guys -

Ten80 said it very well; thank you, sir!

I am not a "scientific" brewer or winemaker, and tend to think of wine or cider as taking several months or a year to make (probably longer than necessary, but all the more reason to get a pipeline started ). I made some of EdWort's Apfelwein, and noticed that it was quite tart at first, but smoothed out quite nicely later on, to the point where the apple character really came through in the aroma and the taste. Based on this, my own theory is that time heals almost everything - but at the same time, waiting can be a pain.

My dad is making some crabapple wine, following pretty much the same procedure that his father did, with a few additions such as campden tablets, pectic enzyme etc. Just last night, he transferred it from primary to secondary and we noticed the same thing - very tart, to the point of seeming acidic...but also with very nice apply flavor underneath. I told him that it might be 9 or 10 months before it starts to hit its stride...maybe even longer. His reply: "Well, I might wait 4 or 5 months...."

yea - funnily enough I'm making crapapple wine myself too ( yooper's recipe ) - so I had planned on a year for that one but I thought I'd get this cider out in a month or two - I did a batch last year and it was great at that time - but yea I'm sure you're right time heals most stuff - but it's not that easy get a proper pipeline together either - I'm working on it but it's going to take ... yea ... time !!! :fro:

 

[ten80]

yea - funnily enough I'm making crapapple wine myself too ( yooper's recipe ) - ... yea ... time !!! :fro:

Except that time unfortunately doesn't seem to reduce tannins. I've had three or four batches of cider that weren't overly dry but still had too much tannin from crabapples. One was completely undrinkable without excessive back-sweetening.

I'm playing with various fining agents to reduce tannins and the bitterness and dryness they impart.

 

[Wovensummers]

Except that time unfortunately doesn't seem to reduce tannins. I've had three or four batches of cider that weren't overly dry but still had too much tannin from crabapples. One was completely undrinkable without excessive back-sweetening.

I'm playing with various fining agents to reduce tannins and the bitterness and dryness they impart.

1080, please be sure to report back on your experiments. I tasted my fresh pressed batch last night (approx 20% crabapples) and it really grabbed you in the back of the jaw. Tasty, but tart.

 

[ten80]

Will do. I have some Keller-Pur and Colle-Perle finings arriving today from Morewine. Both are supposed to bind and settle out tannins. I did extensive Googling of finings for tannins before buying these.

Back to the OP of this thread, is it possible that your cider is overly tannic rather than acidic?. Tannins impart a drying bitterness (akin to hops in beer). Just curious if you'd given tannins any thought.

 

[byronyasgur]

Back to the OP of this thread, is it possible that your cider is overly tannic rather than acidic?. Tannins impart a drying bitterness (akin to hops in beer). Just curious if you'd given tannins any thought.

I don't think it was tannins - not bitterness leaving dryness on my tongue like but "bit a lemon" tart acidy bitterness - I'll consider it though @ next test - haven't tasted it in a week

 

[ten80]

Lemon tart sounds like acidity. Tannins also can dry your tongue as if you'd just sucked on an oak chip. Back-sweetening may be a way of balancing out the acid; doesn't work as well for tannins.

 

[madscientist451]

I've had three or four batches of cider that weren't overly dry but still had too much tannin from crabapples. One was completely undrinkable without excessive back-sweetening.

I'm playing with various fining agents to reduce tannins and the bitterness and dryness they impart.

I don't know what kind of apples you can get, but if you make a somewhat bland cider with something like Red Delicious apples, you can then blend in your tannic crabapple cider to taste.
Or you could make a cider from frozen concentrate and try the same thing.
I can get all the apples I want here really cheap, but no crabapples in enough quantity to make anything, or any apples with any tannins, so I'm puzzled as to why you would want to chemically strip tannins out of your cider.

 

[byronyasgur]

tasted it again last night - it's fine the acidity is still present but not too prominent and I think it will mellow out a bit during conditioning. It is a fairly dry cider though - I used 1118 so I suppose that's to be expected. It tastes nice it's still got decent apple flavour - a bit champagne-ish I suppose. If there was some way to back sweeten it a tad and bottle prime it at the same time but I guess that's not possible - will have to look into it.

Take a small sample (3-4 oz) and dose a measured amount of potassium carbonate solution. Taste the cider as you dose to see if an increase in pH can be attained without any off-flavours from the potassium. Scale up to full size if you can attain a reduced level of acidity without off-flavours. I've been considering this for a few of my acidic ciders that are still to acidic even after malolactic fermentation.

about a week ago when it was still fairly acidy I tried a tiny amount of potassium and it really didn't work well at all. I could taste it very easily and it still wasn't getting rid of the acid. I think if I needed to do this I'd be putting in way less than I needed and then letting it sit for a few weeks because the cider tbh tasted like I "added" something to it ... 2 definite tastes - very weird - but really I'd probably let them sit for 6 months rather than mess with that again - I don't think I added too much either -
all I did was dip the tip of one prong of a dinner fork in the solution getting I suppose 0.1ml or something and mixed this in I think 50 or 100ml or something of the cider. Anyway I'm off the job now I don't think I need to do anything but wait a few weeks longer than I expected

thanks for all the help :fro:

 

[Scrumpy!]

You can substantially reduce the tannin content by adding gelatin with a kieselsol chaser. Be sure not to use something like Knox's. Buy your gelatin from a wine supply store. This is common practice in white wine production.

Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate can only be used in modest amounts without affecting taste. The pH of your cider is pretty low but what really counts is the total acid. Measuring total acid is a relatively simple test done with phenolthalin, 0.1 molar sodium hydroxide, distilled water and must or finished cider. i use the procedure given by UC Davis vinticulture. Be sure to de-gas your sample if it is carbonated otherwise the TA measurement will include carbonic acid. I degas by pulling 6 ml of must or cider into a 10 ml syringe, holding my thumb over the blunt needle and pulling the plunger enough to force the CO2 out of solution. Repeat this several times. All of the reagents are available for a reasonable cost on eBay or Amazon. Blunt syringes of various capacity are available from Duda Energy.

Your target TA should be around 5 g/liter for dry cider and no more than 7 g/liter for sweet cider. Ice cider can be much higher but so is the sugar. I doubt that you can fix this high acid condition with a carbonate or bicarbonate. You could try malolactic fermentation but your best bet is to blend it with a low acid cider. You can always save it for next year and find low acid apples or juice to blend it with.