Cider for Beginners

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Cidermaking is very simple. But, simple is not easy! I wanted to answer a few of the top questions in one place, for new cidermakers as these seem to be the most common queries.

Fermentation:

Your cider will ferment as much as it will ferment. Much of this is yeast strain dependent, as wine yeast will ferment a cider as low as .990, while ale yeast might stop at 1.004. Both have happened to me in the the last year- wine yeast (71B-1122) stopped at .990 and S04 stopped at 1.004. Same pressing, same batch of apples, etc. Just different yeast, with no added sugars.

So, if you are hoping for a bit more "apple cider" flavor, perhaps pick an ale yeast you like (S04 isn't great for beer, in my opinion, but it makes a nice clear apply cider!). If you want to get some bone dry tart "wine" characteristics, choose montrachet or 71B. (71B metabolizes more malic acid so if you've got strongly tart apples, that's a good choice).

Sugar in Cider:

Add sugar, if you want. However, you may want to try a batch sans sugar first, so you have something to compare future batches to. Adding sugar boosts the alcohol by volume, without much flavor at all. It does NOT make a cider sweet in the end!
I make apple wine, crabapple wine, hard cider, and everything in between. My husband loves apple wine and crabapple wine, which is boosted to 1.085-1.090. It loses all of the "apple cider" taste and becomes a nice fruity dry white wine, most similar to pinot grigio than any other commercial wine. It does not scream "APPLES" and most people who taste it do not think it's an apple wine, until they are told. The extra fermentables make it much more winelike, which is what he loves. He drinks it as a dry white table wine. The cider, which is 100% fermented apples, is crisp and apple-y and I have it both carbed and non-carbed. People who think "cider" don't think "apple wine" and they are vastly different, mostly because of the sugar added to boost the ABV and lose some of the apple flavor. The choice is yours- but I'd still try a cider without added sugar the first time unless the SG of the juice is ridiculously low. If you've got, say, 1.045 or thereabouts, I would do it as is and use ale yeast.

Additives:

Pectic enzyme helps to clear the cider, to prevent pectin haze. If you have it, use it, but if not don't sweat it. Most commercial ciders will clear without pectic enzyme. But if you're pressing apples, it helps alot with clarity and to get more juice out of the appes. Things like wine tannin and acid blend are strictly for flavor. I like a "bite" to my apple wine and cider, and if my cider is "flabby" (that's a real winemaking term, in case you were wondering.....) adding a bit helps alot. But it's strictly to taste. If you make your cider, and it's awesome, no need to add those. But if it's a bit bland or boring, they can help. A lot.

Sulfites:

Sulfites have a bad rap, from people who don't understand them. They are used to kill wild yeast and bacteria initially, in unpasteurized cider (or fruit). They do dissipate relatively quickly, and so the yeast is added 12-24 hours later so fermentation can begin. As they do dissipate, many winemakers will add sulfites at every other racking to keep approximately 50 ppm in their wine. What is great about sulfites is that they work as an antioxidant. That's really the purpose, once fermentation begins. For folks who want a sulfite-free wine, that's really not doable as fermentation itself produces sulfites. But many winemakers will add a bit more (again, at about 50 ppm or less) as an antioxidant as sometimes ciders and wines throw a lot of lees and have to be racked a few times. Sulfites bind with the wine, so that oxygen can't. You can leave them out, of course, once fermentation starts. If you start with pasteurized juice and not fruit, they aren't necessary at the start either. Think of sulfites as replacing the boil in beer- killing unwanted microbes and giving the chosen yeast a chance to outcompete other microbes, but not having lasting effects.

Oxygenation and pitch rates:

Oxygen is great for yeast reproduction, so oxygenating the must is a good thing. Most dry wine yeast strains have a 6 gram package that is "good for 1-6 gallons" and it really is. Don't worry about this too much, but ensure that your cider or wine must has nutrients for the yeast. Often times a teaspoon of yeast nutrient is exactly what the yeast need to get started. Yeast energizer is comprised of different things and is needed for more tough ferments. Ale yeast works well in ciders as well, and one package of dry yeast (11 grams) is typically used for 5-6 gallons.

Backsweetening:

First, the term "backsweetening" is often used incorrectly in this forum. The actual meaning to winemakers is to hold back some of the must, before yeast is added, and freeze or otherwise save to backsweeten the wine when done. On this forum, we probably mean "sweetening the finished cider or wine" when that term is used. You won't ever hear me use "backsweeten" that way, though! Anyway, if you want to sweeten your finished cider, you have several choices. A still (uncarbed) sweetened cider is very easy because the cider is stabilized (with sulfites and sorbate) once it is finished and then sweetened to taste. If a sweetened carbonated cider is desired, it can be done in the keg by stabilizing and kegging and force carbing. A sweetened carbed cider done by bottling will require extraneous measures such as bottle pasteurization.

Adjusting flavor after fermentation:

This is important, as sometimes a finished cider or wine just isn't right. Oh, it may not be bad, but it may be missing something. Sometimes a pinch of wine tannin or a bit of acid blend is all that is needed to make it great, and it can all be done post-fermentation. Sometimes, a cider might be best with both sweetening and acid added- and that can be done post-fermentation as well. Often, adjusting "to taste" really is the best way to do it!
 
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One of the first things many cidermakers have to do is source their cider. Unless you have an apple orchard with tart varieties, you generally have to buy your cider.

There are many cidermills in the US, and fresh cider is a great place to start. The thing to be aware of is that the cider can be pasteurized, but it must have NO sorbate or benzoate in it. Those are the most commonly used preservatives.

If fresh cider isn't available, juice from the store may be a decent substitute.

A great cider generally uses a mix of sweet, bittersweet, sharp (tart), and bittersharp. There may be a few varieties that alone make good cider, but most cidermakers will tell you that a mix is best. That gives a great balance of tannin, acidity, sweetness, and body.

Some acid (via acid blend or individual acids like malic acid) may really bring out the tart flavor of the cider, but generally it can be added at the end of fermentation before packaging if the cider is bland.

Powdered wine tannin may be needed in some ciders to give the cider some "bite", like it does for wine, unless tannic bittersharp apples are used.

Many cidermakers have some yeast strains that they prefer, and there are various reasons why. For example, some ale yeast strains like S04 ferment quickly, make a clear cider, and don't ferment to bone dry. My last S04 batched ended at 1.004- plenty tart but not bitingly puckering dry. A wine yeast strain, like EC-1118, may finish at .990- very dry. Some strains, like 71B-1122, will ferment more malic acid than others and since apples are highest in malic acid, that may be preferable for some.

Experimentation is one of the most fun ways to see which YOU prefer!
 

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Thanks so much for all this information! I was hoping to learn a little more about the addition of acid blends and tannins. Would you be able to provide some more information on the subject.
 

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Thanks yoop.

I decided to use regular store bought juice for a half gallon test batch. I think it is missing a little apple flavor. I used s-04. Can you cover the different ways to add some apple flavor?

I thought about some frozen concentrate and let it ferment out. I just bought more juice to experiment with. I am using half gallon to test some different ingredients to add. I will add pear juice to one
 
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Thanks so much for all this information! I was hoping to learn a little more about the addition of acid blends and tannins. Would you be able to provide some more information on the subject.
The predominant acid in apples is malic acid. That's the flavor when you bite into a crisp tart apple- it has a bit of a "bite" to it itself.

Acids give wines their characteristic crisp, slightly tart taste and the same is true for cider. The alcohol from the fermentation, residual sugar, and other ingredients can moderate the effects of the acid, and provide balnce. Too much acid, and you get a tart, almost sour taste in the finished cider (or wine- much of this is appropriate for wines and meads too!). Also, fermentation itself lowers the pH as well as ferments out the sugar, so the acid flavor might be a bit stronger after fermentation.

When the natural acids in the fruit or juice are low, a product called "acid blend" can be added. This is a blend of three of the major acids in wines- tartaric (mostly in grapes), malic (common in most fruits) and citric (the predominant acid in citrus fruits). Some wines may be better with just one of those added- say, citrus fruit like lemon in a dandelion wine, and in cider as well. Since the "bite" in the hard cider comes from malic acid, generally you won't ever need to add more so sometimes a squeeze of lemon or some citric acid can be added to hard cider for a bit of acidity if needed. That really depends on the juice/fruit used, as sweet eating apples are lacking in the acid department.

To deal with excess malic acid, some cider makers have their cider undergo malolactic fermentation (MLF) which changes the harsh malic acid into softer lactic acid post-fermentation, and some will choose to drop some of the acidity via calcium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate pre-fermentation. While I have done that, I have found that the finished cider may not be too acidic in the end even without CaC03 treatment. Many will use acid titration kits to determine the acid content before beginning, but many others find that "if the juice/cider tastes good, I'll just start there". All of those methods are fine, and work well for many individuals.

There are some yeast strains, notably Lalvin's 71B-1122, that are known to metabolize more malic acid than others, and often that is all that is needed to reduce the acid "bite" of the cider in the end, and end with a more balanced cider.
 
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Thanks yoop.

I decided to use regular store bought juice for a half gallon test batch. I think it is missing a little apple flavor. I used s-04. Can you cover the different ways to add some apple flavor?

I thought about some frozen concentrate and let it ferment out. I just bought more juice to experiment with. I am using half gallon to test some different ingredients to add. I will add pear juice to one
That's a good question. I guess I haven't given that too much thought, as the most "apply" apple cider tends to come from the mix of apples. Most storebought juices, while good, tend to be made from sweeter apples than something like those bittersharps that maintain such a strong "applyness" to them.

Fresh cider, rather than juice, with that strong distinct apple cider taste has always worked well for me. But I think that concentrated juice, or those wine bases that come in a can can probably be helpful in bringing back some apple notes.

One of the things that does help, without doing anything at all, is aging. Sometimes just a bit of age, 4-6 months even, will bring back the apple notes and aroma in quite a good balance. It really is yeast strain dependent to an extent, and of course the cider used is the real determining factor. Boosting the ABV with simple sugars will also create a less "apple" note, and more of a "white wine" note.
 
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Tannins and Pectic Enzyme

Apples do contain some tannin, and the amount varies from variety to variety. A little is so nice- it provides a "bite" to the cider and keeps the cider from being insipid or "flat" tasting. It can give some depth, especially to the mouthfeel.

Also, tannin helps ciders clear. But it can be astringent in large amounts, so this is definitely a "less is more" ingredient.

You can always add more later, but you can't take it out. And it's so easy to overdo! As little as 1/8 teaspoon may be more than enough. It's fine to add it after fermentation also, once the acids have come into their own, when you have a better idea of the final balance of the cider. It doesn't dissolve well, so add it to water (or cider) and stir it well, and then add it to your cider. Taste in a couple of days, to determine if the amount is adequate.

Winemakers tend to use powdered grape tannin, but some do use tea leaves or teabags as well. Since I"ve never done that, I don't know the "dosage".

Cider is rarely oaked, but if it is the oak provides tannins so you should never add tannin until after the oaking and only if it still needs it (unlikely).

Another addition that many cidermakers add is pectin enzyme. What that does is break up the pectins in the apples or juice, getting more juice out of your fruit (if adding to the fruit) and enhancing the ability of the cider to clear. It helps prevent a pectin haze.

The general "dose" is 1/2- 1 teaspoon per gallon, depending on brand. It can be used at any time. However, it works better without yeast or sulfites in the mix- so a good general rule of thumb when making up the must for the cider is to add it 12 hours after any sulfites, and 12 hours before the yeast. As an example- put the fresh cider into a sanitized fermenter, and add the campden (sulfites). stir well to combine. Then, 12 hours later, add the pectic enzyme (as the sulfites will have dissipated quite a bit by then). Twelve hours after that, pitch your desired yeast. If you forget and add them together, it's not a huge deal at all, it just may not work quite as well. It can also be used later, to clear a pectin haze, so it's not necessary to add it at the beginning. I sometimes make apple wine, and ferment on the pulp for the first 5 days, like with grape wines, before pressing, and I use it at that point to extract more juice, but it can be successfully used after fermentation as well for clearing the cider or wine.
 
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Sweetening the Cider:

If the cider is finished, and clear, then campden and sorbate will allow you to sweeten the cider. If it's not finished and there are a lot of lees (sediment), it won't do anything.

The way it works is that sorbate does not kill yeast, but it prevents yeast reproduction. So, in an active fermentation when there are hundreds and hundreds of billions of active yeast, it won't do a thing. But once fermentation stops, and the cider clears, and the cider is racked off of the fallen yeast, it can be added to prevent yeast reproducing, thereby not allowing fermentation to begin again (usually). Sorbate works better in the presence of sulfite (campden), so they are generally added together.

However, it will NOT stop an active fermentation and will not work in a cider that is not clear and done fermenting.

If you use this method, and it is successful, you can sweeten to taste without any risk of bottle bombs.

Because the yeast has been inhibited, however, you will not be able to bottle carbonate the cider. Carbonation is a function of the yeast.

It's fairly easy to make a sweet still cider, or a dry carbonated cider. To make a sweet sparkling cider, extra steps and techniques like bottle pasteurization or kegging would be needed.
 

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Does adding sliced up, cut up, chopped up fresh apples do anything to improve/change or make for the better, a fermentation process?
 
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Does adding sliced up, cut up, chopped up fresh apples do anything to improve/change or make for the better, a fermentation process?
At the beginning, during primary fermentation, I do often have apple pulp in the primary. But once fermentation ends, adding fruit that isn't treated with sulfites is most likely to contaminate/infect the cider and not provide anything in the way of flavor.
 
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When do I add Pectic Enzyme? I am in the middle of fermenting a 2 gallon batch of cider I bought locally. The pre-fermented cider was pretty hazy. I just boiled some brown sugar to bump up the OG and pitched red star champagne yeast. the SG is at 1.020 right now and fermenting nicely.
 
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When do I add Pectic Enzyme? I am in the middle of fermenting a 2 gallon batch of cider I bought locally. The pre-fermented cider was pretty hazy. I just boiled some brown sugar to bump up the OG and pitched red star champagne yeast. the SG is at 1.020 right now and fermenting nicely.
Pectic enzyme can be added at any time; however it is most effective when added before fermentation. It doesn't work as well with sulfites, or with yeast, so traditionally it is added 12 hours after sulfiting the original must (if sulfiting) and 12 hours before the yeast. Normally, the must is sulfited when it is mixed up, assuming unpasteurized juice, and the yeast added 24 hours later. The pectic enzyme goes in right between them at 12 hours.

If you want to add it now, that's fine. It doesn't dissolve all that well, so just take out a sample of the cider, stir the pectin enzyme into it, let it sit in a warm place for a few hours, and then add to the batch of cider. It seems to work best on warm wines and ciders, so try to keep the batch around 70 degrees when adding the pectic enzyme, and until it clears.

One teaspoon of pectic enzyme per gallon is the typical dose.
 

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Got it, thanks. By the way, I tried that black currant juice last night, its nasty. By the time I got enough apple juice into it to make it taste better, all I could taste was apple juice! I'll have to figure something else out for it. Maybe mix a bunch of sugar or honey in it and see if I can sweeten it up a bit. Looks like it going to be a laboratory experiment for now.
 

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You can always try un-fermentable sweeteners, unless you are opposed that idea. Sometimes adding a little u/f sweetener and finishing with something else usually does a great job. That way you don't have to worry about an "off" flavor in your cider.
 

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In regard to sourcing decent apples or juice--I agree that this is key, but it can often be a challenge depending on location.

Here in the front range of Colorado, we get primarily culinary apples from outside the region with very little tannin or post-fermentation character. Luckily, there there are a few limited options for fresh juice with no preservatives, but the same challenges apply there on the flavor front.

Here are a few things that have helped me ensure that my final product has as much apple character as possible in the absence of amazing cider fruit:

Crabapples:

As crabapples mature earlier (many of them in mid or late summer) than most other apple varieties, I've taken to fermenting a few gallons of straight crabapple cider early in the season and then blending it into later-season ciders that I make with culinary apples. A little of this crabapple cider goes a long way--a Dolgo crab cider I made this year was very tart and acidic (3.0 pH!), as well as puckering and astringent--toward perking up an otherwise insipid cider.

I tend to blend these post-fermentation when both ciders are done, since it's hard to gauge the final flavor of either cider while it's still fermenting or fresh out of the primary. This is by no means the only time or way to blend, but so far it's working well for me.

Tannin Additives:

I won't belabor this topic, as it's been covered earlier in this thread, but I'll echo the fact that powdered tannin additives are very useful and should be added sparingly when experimenting with them.

Oak:

I've had pretty good luck with adding oak character, body, and color to an otherwise thin cider using an oak infusion spiral in the secondary fermenter. A couple things I've noticed in this context are:

  • Dark oak toasts can easily wash out and dominate the apple flavor
  • Adding a few months to your aging schedule after using oak helps to mellow the harshness of the imparted tannins

A typical use of oak for me would be to rack a dry cider onto a medium toast oak spiral after primary fermentation, leave the cider on the oak for 4-6 weeks, tasting periodically, then when sufficient flavor is imparted, rack again and age for 3-6 more months.

Fruit Ripeness:

When working with apples rather than juice, one mistake I've made several times is to grind/press the apples too soon. Just because an apple is ripe enough to pick off the tree doesn't mean it's reached maximum flavor and sugar concentration.

It's a fairly common practice among cidermakers to 'sweat' apples after harvesting, which basically just means leaving them in a cool place (in my case, in a garage on a tarp) for up to a few weeks and allowing them to ripen further.

You can overdo this, obviously, but I've been surprised at how much this step can add to the finished product's flavor and--given the concentration of sugars--alcohol content.

Very ripe, soft apples may not be appealing to eat, but for cider they can be excellent. The main things I've noticed with sweating are:

  • Increased juice yield when pressing
  • A more mature, cooked apple flavor in the finished product (vs. the thin, green apple flavor of cider from underripe apples)

Hopefully this is useful information for those of you without access to great cider fruit.

Of course, another option is to plant your own orchard which includes bittersweet and bittersharp apples, but that's a topic for another thread...
 
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At the beginning, during primary fermentation, I do often have apple pulp in the primary. But once fermentation ends, adding fruit that isn't treated with sulfites is most likely to contaminate/infect the cider and not provide anything in the way of flavor.
If you use apple pulp in the primary fermentation, is sulfite needed?

Also, is there any difference between the time for fermenting ciders and fermenting beer? To be more specific, will 2 weeks in both stages (primary and secondary) be sufficient? Or is a longer period required for either or both? I want to do a 1-gallon test batch and possibly bottle it into a few 12 oz. bottles.
 
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By sulfite, are you referring to campden tablets?
Honestly, I am not sure what the specific name for it is because I haven't used it before. I'm just using the terminology from the opening post. Is there a particular sulfite product that you would recommend?
 

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Well, campden tablets contain potassium bi-sulfite, so I am assuming thats the sulfite they're talking about. It is supposed to stop the foreign yeasts from producing, but there are two schools of thought on the subject that I've read. One says it kills yeast, another says it just slows it down enough so it doesn't become active, and gives the intended yeast the opportunity to evolve and multiply. In either case, it is a much used chemical to prohibit foreign yeast from taking over. I think thats the sulfite they are referring to.
 
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Campden tablets contain either sodium or potassium metabisulfite, but in a convenient tablet form. One campden tablet is equal in "dose" to a very small amount of the k-meta or Na-meta powder, due to having binders and inert ingredients in the tablets. Conveniently, a typical 'dose' of campden tablets is one tablet, crushed and dissolved, per gallon of wine or cider (or mead).

The powder has its own conveniences- it can be used 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons, so a little goes a long way- and in a higher concentration it makes a sanitizer for equipment as well.

I have both on hand- as it's hard to measure 1/6 of a 1/4 teaspoon for a one gallon batch, but it's cheaper and easier to use the powder in large batches.

I'd stay away from the sodium metabisulfite tablets or powder. While equally effective, it does add sodium to the wine or cider and potassium metabisulfite is the same price and easily accessible.

Sulfites are used as antioxidants primarily once fermentation starts. It is not used to kill yeast especially not wine or ale yeast which are sulfite tolerant.
 

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Yooper -

First, thanks for this wonderful reference.

About the items I've quoted below -

How does one maintain 50 PPM of sulfites? Is there a dosage of k-meta per gallon that relates to that?

And secondly, what are typical amounts of wine tannin and acid that you use? My source is pasteurized cider from a local orchard, and the results have been sort of bland even with ale yeast. I'd like to add something to kick it up a level but "by taste" is a bit out of my experience level. I don't want to turn "bland" into "yuck".

TIA


Additives:

Pectic enzyme helps to clear the cider, to prevent pectin haze. If you have it, use it, but if not don't sweat it. Most commercial ciders will clear without pectic enzyme. But if you're pressing apples, it helps alot with clarity and to get more juice out of the appes. Things like wine tannin and acid blend are strictly for flavor. I like a "bite" to my apple wine and cider, and if my cider is "flabby" (that's a real winemaking term, in case you were wondering.....) adding a bit helps alot. But it's strictly to taste. If you make your cider, and it's awesome, no need to add those. But if it's a bit bland or boring, they can help. A lot.

Sulfites:

Sulfites have a bad rap, from people who don't understand them. They are used to kill wild yeast and bacteria initially, in unpasteurized cider (or fruit). They do dissipate relatively quickly, and so the yeast is added 12-24 hours later so fermentation can begin. As they do dissipate, many winemakers will add sulfites at every other racking to keep approximately 50 ppm in their wine.
 
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Yooper -

First, thanks for this wonderful reference.

About the items I've quoted below -

How does one maintain 50 PPM of sulfites? Is there a dosage of k-meta per gallon that relates to that?

And secondly, what are typical amounts of wine tannin and acid that you use? My source is pasteurized cider from a local orchard, and the results have been sort of bland even with ale yeast. I'd like to add something to kick it up a level but "by taste" is a bit out of my experience level. I don't want to turn "bland" into "yuck".

TIA
Without an SO2 meter and/or a pH meter, the only way to try to maintain 50 ppm is by guestimating it. In general, 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon at every other racking is the best guestimate I know of. It's really not a great guestimate, but it works. S02 is pH dependent, and there are other factors, but a guestimate is ok.

As far as tannin, and acid, that's harder. It ranges from 0 to quite a bit, depending on the apples and from year to year. Without acid testing (and even with it, taste is still more important) it's just hard to tell until you get a feel for it. It's really all about that taste, and not necessarily the TA (total acidity) or even the amount of tannin. In apples that are sort of bland, acid additions and tannin make all the difference.
 

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I have a question, even if I make my cider with beer yeast, should I age it? and if so, for how long?
 
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I have a question, even if I make my cider with beer yeast, should I age it? and if so, for how long?
I have no idea, but normally you age something so that the taste melds together and it improves until it peaks. Bread yeast has tons of lees, and they are easily disturbed so it might be hard to get a cider out of it with no sediment on the bottom so I would be very hesitant to age it very long.
 

HAREEBROWNBEEST

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I know its not safe or preferred but I usually add frozen juice concentrate to my finished cider to give it that apple cider taste (like it did in the beginning) I also like my ciders carbonated so I use a plastic bottle filled with my finished, back sweetened bottled cider. Once the plastic bottle is hard I know the bottled cider is carbonated. Now I have an extra refrigerator to place my cider bottles into to "slow down" the possibility of bottle bombs (haven't had 1 yet). Now that's just the way I do it, if you want a sweet, carbonated cider, the quick and dangerous way. Besides, the bottles get consumed fairly quickly so I don't worry about the bottles becoming bombs:) you could try it this way if you like, it works for me. Just keep those bottles cold!!!!
 

frettfreak

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What a great read this thread was. Thanks for putting it together yooper! I learned some things for sure! :mug:

Regarding the previous question about the tannins and acid additions. You said it ranges from 0 to quite a bit. In a 5 gallon batch, what is "quite a bit"? are we talking a tablespoon, a teaspoon, a cup? I picked some up yesterday after reading this thread a bit and really dont know where to start.

With something like an acid blend, can i just test it in a glass to taste then scale it up to 5 gallons?
 

symon

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Thanks yooper, been looking for a guide like this for a while! Trying to research things for different sources just left me confused! Please forgive my ignorance and lack of understanding, just we all have to start somewhere! :)

I'm currently fermenting a 'caramel apple cider' but fear it'll get ruined as I can't find the answers to the following...

I want to make it carbonated in a plastic keg/bottle with a pressure safety valve on it.

The recipe requires adding 'burnt honey' after primary fermentation which I understand will start fermentation again. It then tells you to bottle and pasteurise which I assume limits the amount of carbonation that takes place in the bottle as this step will kill he yeast.

How best can I add the honey to the keg and keep it fizzy without it exploding? i assume the safety valve will rease the excess but I don't want the extra sugar to up the ABV!

With regards bulk ageing, at what point would I do this?

Final question, I've been given a fermenting fridge capable of cold crashing. Would this help in any of the stages?

I hope someone can help as my head is about to explode with all the differing advise!

Thanks in advance!
 

ShepFL

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Would like to meet one day! Thanks for all you do for the forum and us!!:rockin:
 
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