China Vs Cask for Canning system

[CrankyBeaverBrewery]

so were gunna go commercial sometime next year and were looking at canning machines.. got some quotes from the guys at cask which came in at $90,000 for a fully automated machine...

and of course i sourced out the china guys and have the video and specs of the machine with a price tag of $15,000

now the difference is the cask can do a decent amount of cans at a time.. but not as much as the china one which can be ramped up to 500 cpm..

i think the only hardship would be service of the machine.. but at a savings of $75,000 i can live with that lol..

what are your thoughts about china vs domestic besides the love usa only buy usa type stuff.

 

[daksin]

This is a question better suited to the Pro's over at probrewer.com. This site is pretty much just homebrewers, and a solid 0.00001% of them have priced out and compared automated canning systems.

That said, I'm also opening a brewery (although we won't be packaging for quite a while), I've seen Cask's stuff in operation as well as met their service folks. Top notch. I cannot possibly imagine that any device (this goes for any equipment in any industry, not just canners) can be produced for one sixth the price of another could possibly function as well. I would be incredibly dubious about the 500CPM claim. I've never heard of any packaging device that can do that kind of speed. Now, I am 100% NOT a "BUY AMERICAN BECUZZ AMURRICA **** YEAH" type guy, but I've also seen some pretty slipshod fermentors and brewing systems ::gasp:: made in China. Of course the plural of anecdote is not data, but I would want to touch these things in a working environment before making any decisions.

Ultimately, with any big purchase, you need to go somewhere that has each of these systems and talk to people who are actually using them.

The other thing is, most breweries aren't using the fully automated version of the cask system. A pretty bare bones setup is fairly upgradeable and will get you going. The CPM will be lower, but unless you're going to be doing 10,000HL your first year, I don't think it's necessary.

 

[CrankyBeaverBrewery]

Coca colas machines run at 2200-2400 cans per minute !! Insane !!

I'm just saying that I can from 30 cpm to 200 cpm with the Asian one

I do know cask is really amazing with support and backed their products just that $75,000 savings is huge. I'm gunna contact them and see if they have any domestic customers to see their Asian systems..

Manual canner at $15,000 seems decent just a lot of labour and work involved ..

 

[smokinghole]

I would say if you can afford I'd go with the Cask system. I work in a brewery and the difference between good equipment and "we saved so much by buying this cheaper piece of equipment" is blatantly obvious. If you want labor headaches, frequent repairs, and bad welds (just a guess based on my experience), then buy the Chinese stuff. If you want service, knowledge, support, and a quality piece of equipment then buy the Cask stuff. It's a matter of how much you value your sanity and the break even point on that piece of equipment. Sure you'll break even MUCH faster on the cheap one, but if the cask is still reasonable then...you know where I'm going here.

 

[Wayne1]

You also might want to check out Wild Goose Canning

Quite a few micros here in CO have moved from Cask to Wild Goose. All of their lines can be upgraded to the next level.

Some of the problems I have heard about with Chinese filling lines is a decided lack of documentation for assembly and repair. Also availability of replacement parts seems to be a large issue.

 

[CrankyBeaverBrewery]

Moved from Cask To Wild goose ?? as in they had a cask and then sold that and went to wild goose ?

 

[Wayne1]

Moved from Cask To Wild goose ?? as in they had a cask and then sold that and went to wild goose ?

Correct.

I believe both Upslope and Ska did that.

 

[Quaker]

From the perspective of someone working in manufacturing in China, including purchasing machinery, factor in multiple trips to the vendor for a first hand review and approval. At a minimum, I would say one to visit their facility, review their capabilities first hand, and discuss specification prior to placing an order. And one for final sign off which should be assumed to be lengthened or repeated to accommodate corrections.

Generally if you buy a machine here with specs and components up to par with US or EU expectations for reliability, you can save about 30%. If the savings are greater than that, expect that low grade (non-recognized local brand) bearings, slides, gears, motors, etc. are used. You'll have high maintenance costs in the future and struggle with uptime. Have them include an exhaustive spare parts supply.

If you were talking about a tool for a one time home project like a roofing nailer for a DIY shed, perfect time to save coin and get one from Harbor Freight. But a professional roofer needs more reliability and so will you as a professional brewer.

Now you can work with them and clearly specify such components and every detail, and still save money which is what we do on our equipment. But it takes a thorough knowledge of those details and time. You'd eat up the savings in time and travel. And if it's your first canning line, you might not know enough.

My 2 cents.

 

[CrankyBeaverBrewery]

That is what I am getting as a concensus and I was planning on making a trip out there to 100% confirm but I seems that north American is what I will be going with if it's wild goose or cask. And I've heard a lot of people start with cask and go to goose or just goose right away... Cask systems seem really durable and great support..

Guess il have to research more goose canning..

 

[CrankyBeaverBrewery]

I have a group buy thread for fermenters what are your thoughts on that ?

 

[Quaker]

I think I avoided spreading my pessimism on that thread intentionally. It's easy to get jaded living and working here dealing with the fact that everything here is obviously made in china, including the elevator to the apartment.

However, with no working parts in a fermentor, the risks are lower. Material grade and welding quality are the obvious technical risks, neither catastrophic. The other being the financial one based on payment terms. Quite honestly, I've made note of the supplier and thought about possibly checking them out. However with my current schedule that isn't happening soon if ever. But if I ever do, I'll share what I see and hear.

 

[StrangeGuy]

Which one did you end up with and how is it working?

Thank you.

Cheers, Conrad