Chiller

[acm28]

Olá!
Gostaria de saber sua opinião sobre chillers para resfriar o mosto. Estou pensando em atualizar meu equipamento porque atualmente uso um chiller de serpentina de aço, mas demora muito para resfriar meu mosto, no entanto, gostaria de ouvir algumas opiniões antes de trocar meu equipamento (para evitar arrependimentos).

Para dar um contexto, meu refrigerador se parece com isso:
https://www.cocinista.es/web/es/enfriador-serpentin-de-acero-20-l-3620.html

E estou em dúvida entre trocar por uma dessas duas (uma de placa ou uma de contrafluxo)
https://www.cocinista.es/web/es/enfriador-a-contra-corriente--9794.html
https://www.cocinista.es/web/es/intercambiador-de-40-placas--60-litros-10792.html

Pelo pouco que li sobre esses dois chillers, acho que a diferença de tempo para resfriar o mosto não é muito grande (e ambos são mais rápidos que o chiller de serpentina de aço). Também vi em alguns lugares que não é necessária bomba para nenhum deles, mas em alguns sites vi que dizia que o chiller de placas precisa de bomba (... não sei qual é o correto). Também gostaria de saber, pela experiência de vocês, qual é o melhor, dicas e também gostaria de saber sobre a higiene deles.

Agradecemos desde já a sua ajuda e disponibilidade!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

When I look at your links they all go to an Amazon page with mini regulators.

I have used two types of chillers. First was a copper counterflow. That worked great for many years. There are different versions out there, but all with the same concept. Hot wort flows in one direction and cold water in the opposite, a tube inside a tube.

I have recently switched to a plate chiller. Same concept as a counter flow but uses plates instead if two tubes. Both of them I use a pump although I have heard a counter flow could be gravity.

I switched to the plate style as it's more efficient, uses less water and chills faster. Cleaning is extremely important. The separation between the plates is small, you don't want junk getting stuck. My wort is filtered before going through the plate chiller. After I'm done I flush it with hot water then during cleanup I pump hot PBW through it followed by water.

 

[acm28]

When I look at your links they all go to an Amazon page with mini regulators.

 Oh, sorry, I made a mistake with the links, but I've fixed it now.

Both of them I use a pump although I have heard a counter flow could be gravity.

Well, in counterflow it makes sense that it can be used without a pump, in plate flow I think it does less but I've read that

I switched to the plate style as it's more efficient, uses less water and chills faster. Cleaning is extremely important. The separation between the plates is small, you don't want junk getting stuck. My wort is filtered before going through the plate chiller. After I'm done I flush it with hot water then during cleanup I pump hot PBW through it followed by water.

Top, if it uses less water and cools faster then it "only" has advantages. I had already read here on the forum (somewhere but I don't remember where) that there was almost no difference in time.

My wort is also filtered beforehand so there shouldn't be any clogging issues. So there's nothing special about cleaning? Top

Thank you

 

[Broken Crow]

Plate chillers are theoretically far more efficient; It depends on the size as heat-exchange is all about surface area contact and the materials. ie: a small plate chiller with few plates, while less expensive may not perform as you'd like. A nice large plate chiller like the Blichmann will outperform most other less expensive ones. If you set your gear up high enough, you could use gravity, but with less force a clog becomes more likely even with a filter as you've got your cold-break to contend with.
Like @OakIslandBrewery I have a filter in my kettle, but as my kettle is an electic keggle I had to put the diptube in the middle of the bottom and even though I use a finer mesh than the defacto 300 mesh most homebrewers use, there still is a lot of silt that gets through. I have a CFC (3/8"copper tube inside 3/4"garden hose) mounted directly beneath the keggle and I did try it once with gravity and it plugged about halfway through. Other problems with not using a pump is the lack of ability to sanitize or whirlpool..Heck; I have the cheap and modest MP-15RM pump with a thermometer on the output so that I'm able to reciculate until stable pitching temp is reached at which point I turn my 3-way valve and feed my fermenter.
A pump doesn't need to be expensive, but you really do want one if using either a plate or CFC.

 

[Broken Crow]

Apologies for the extra post, I just had a "d'uh!" moment...
Wether you replace your immersion chiller with a plate or CFC, you'll still have to have a cold enough source water to use it effectively. What temperature is the water you feed into your IC? As it sounds like you don't want a pump and all the fittings to deal with, maybe you'd be better served with an additional IC in a cooler full of ice-water to prechill your chilling water.
Just a thought.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Yes, good point on the water source with either or any choice with a chiller.

When I mentioned cleaning my plate chiller I make sure it's flushed then cleaned after my brew day so there's no issues the day of my next brew.

 

[acm28]

Other problems with not using a pump is the lack of ability to sanitize or whirlpool..Heck; I have the cheap and modest MP-15RM pump with a thermometer on the output so that I'm able to reciculate until stable pitching temp is reached at which point I turn my 3-way valve and feed my fermenter.

In that case I really need a pump. I've already been looking at one of those, I'll look more closely but I'll probably buy one (sometimes saving on these things ends up being more expensive, and if I need the pump to have better water efficiency and good sanitation then I think it's better to buy it).

Apologies for the extra post, I just had a "d'uh!" moment...
Wether you replace your immersion chiller with a plate or CFC, you'll still have to have a cold enough source water to use it effectively. What temperature is the water you feed into your IC? As it sounds like you don't want a pump and all the fittings to deal with, maybe you'd be better served with an additional IC in a cooler full of ice-water to prechill your chilling water.
Just a thought.

You don't need to apologize, that's exactly why I created the post.

So far I've been using room temperature water but I've already read what you said about the bucket of ice water and I think that's what I'm going to do. I started making beer at the end of last year, but as I have some knowledge of this area, that's why I know the importance of this phase of the process and that is why I am now updating my equipment and "my method".

Thank you for your help, I will take into account what you said.

 

[acm28]

When I mentioned cleaning my plate chiller I make sure it's flushed then cleaned after my brew day so there's no issues the day of my next brew.

Yes, I guess so, I also clean and disinfect everything at the end of my brew day.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Yes, I guess so, I also clean and disinfect everything at the end of my brew day.

It's a good habit to get into. Less worries on brew day.

Having a good pump is a good piece of equipment to have for your brew system. Lots of great options out there as Broken Crow mentioned. I use one main pump for everything in my system; I pump from the mashtun to the boil kettle and again from the boil kettle to the chiller/fermenter.

 

[Broken Crow]

In that case I really need a pump. I've already been looking at one of those, I'll look more closely but I'll probably buy one (sometimes saving on these things ends up being more expensive, and if I need the pump to have better water efficiency and good sanitation then I think it's better to buy it).


You don't need to apologize, that's exactly why I created the post.

So far I've been using room temperature water but I've already read what you said about the bucket of ice water and I think that's what I'm going to do. I started making beer at the end of last year, but as I have some knowledge of this area, that's why I know the importance of this phase of the process and that is why I am now updating my equipment and "my method".

Thank you for your help, I will take into account what you said.

Pumps are an entire subject themselves... Given as you say you are a recent brewer, Kudos on doing your research on this site!
You've probably encountered references to the old stalwarts: March and Chugger pumps as well as the more recent Blichmann Riptide and Spike Flow and while these are top of the line excellent pumps well-worth their pricetags, not everyone needs the power they have on offer. IC's and CFC's typically have a 3/8" core that limits your flow rate while most plate chillers I've seen have 1/2" passage....IMO; unless you're working with a kettle larger than 20 gallons, you don't need all that power.
If you're not familiar with our resident hardware guru @Bobby_M ; He is a seller of homebrewing gear who has probably researched, designed, built, tested and used more configurations of homebrewing gear than anyone else on earth. One of his most tried and true products is this BIAB brewing rig:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/biabpackagepremium.htm
The standard pump, the USA-made Topsflo TD5 is actually one of the least powerful options but has many happy users. Here's a link to his pump page (there's a table of pump comparisons at the top);
https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1836.htm
The cheapest one, the "Mark II" is a TC version of the chinese-made MP-15RM and also sold (as NPT) by Kegland as the "Pumpzilla" and by many others globally, most recently bearing the "Vevor" brand name: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/20-mag-drive-pump.733677/
The body is also used for a pump by Anvil who sells it with a much more versatile head: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/anvil-brewing-pump-xp-first-impressions.731940/
I did eventually buy a Riptide, but only for my next 'upgraded' brew-rig which will be incorporating a dual-concentric CFC with a long pair of 3/8" tubes and as such, will require a little extra push to keep a good whirlpool. My current keggle has been happily using an MP-15RM from ebay for about 4 years now... My only issue is that my 3/8" CFC restricts the flow rate and makes a weaker whirlpool than I would like for 12 Gallon batches... It's still adequate when pushing a 6G batch though.
Hope I've provided some food for thought.

 

[acm28]

Hope I've provided some food for thought.

You certainly provided...
I'll have to look very carefully at the issue of bombs (that's my job tomorrow )

Thanks for the help and advice!

(Edit.: My batches are far from the 20 gallons you mentioned... I produce batches of, at most, 25-30L)

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Broken Crow is offering solid advice on pumps.

I own three, two March pumps which I have had for years, and a new Spike Flow I just bought, that'll be my last pump!

 

[Deadalus]

I am able to gravity drain my boil kettle through a hopstopper filter, through my CFC, and even through the pump without the pump being turned on. The wort tubing is 1/2" copper line. It's a little slower than 1 gallon per minute. That's the maximum suggested rate for the Hopstopper. I noticed I didn't need to turn the pump on relatively recently. I did need to scrape the Hopstopper a little to clear an opening with a brew having lots of hops however but that's happened with the pump too.

Having the pump though is good as mentioned for sanitizing it with hot wort, whirlpooling, and also very important to me is for cleaning in place (CIP-recirculation of cleaning solution, typically powdered brewery wash (PBW)). All that applies to both a CFC and plate chiller.

 

[acm28]

Pumps are an entire subject themselves... Given as you say you are a recent brewer, Kudos on doing your research on this site!
You've probably encountered references to the old stalwarts: March and Chugger pumps as well as the more recent Blichmann Riptide and Spike Flow and while these are top of the line excellent pumps well-worth their pricetags, not everyone needs the power they have on offer. IC's and CFC's typically have a 3/8" core that limits your flow rate while most plate chillers I've seen have 1/2" passage....IMO; unless you're working with a kettle larger than 20 gallons, you don't
The standard pump, the USA-made Topsflo TD5 is actually one of the least powerful options but has many happy users. Here's a link to his pump page (there's a table of pump comparisons at the top);
https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1836.htm
The cheapest one, the "Mark II" is a TC version of the chinese-made MP-15RM and also sold (as NPT) by Kegland as the "Pumpzilla" and by many others globally, most recently bearing the "Vevor" brand name:
The body is also used for a pump by Anvil who sells it with a much more versatile head:
I did eventually buy a Riptide, but only for my next 'upgraded' brew-rig which will be incorporating a dual-concentric CFC with a long pair of 3/8" tubes and as such, will require a little extra push to keep a good whirlpool. My current keggle has been happily using an MP-15RM from ebay for about 4 years now... My only issue is that my 3/8" CFC restricts the flow rate and makes a weaker whirlpool than I would like for 12 Gallon batches... It's still adequate when pushing a 6G batch though.
Hope I've provided some food for thought.

Hello again, I just started looking into the subject of bombs, so my knowledge is still very shallow...
I actually don't know if I should continue this topic or if I should create a new one, but since we had already started to address this topic, here it goes. (It's worth remembering that I'm European, so not all the pumps that are available in the United States at low prices are available here at those prices. That's why some of the pumps that are much cheaper there (compared to the ones I'm going to ask about) aren't that much cheaper, let's say that on average, the price difference should be around 30€.)
I would like to know why I can't find any reference to this type of pump here on the forum, what are the drawbacks?

https://www.polsinelli.it/en/electric-pump-for-beer-novax-20-beer-low-P1901.htm
https://www.polsinelli.it/en/electric-pump-for-beer-novax-20-beer-P1041.htm
https://www.polsinelli.it/en/electric-pump-for-beer-beer-novax-20-with-valve-P1477.htm

Thanks

 

[Broken Crow]

I would like to know why I can't find any reference to this type of pump here on the forum, what are the drawbacks?

It probably hasn't been seen in brewing circles because of the specs;

Technical specifications​

• Power supply: 220V
• Power: 0.6 Hp
• rpm: 1450 rpm
• Flow rate: 300 Lt/h
• Maximum height: 25 m
• Maximum temperature: 95°C
• Hose connector: Ø20 mm
• Overall dimensions in mm: 230 x 120 x 190
• Weight: 6 kg
• Luminaire complies with CE safety standards

Topping out at 95°C makes it useless for moving boiling wort. IMO, an MP-15RM is probably your best option..It's sold just about everywhere, just sometimes with different names. Here's a few links as a starting point:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1840618452...ApnBMzceRwAN6op2OsV2F/GA==|tkp:Bk9SR76awPfgZA
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3755192201...NzoeVlpRw==|tkp:BFBMhMfF9-Bk&var=644448784527
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100..._id=202411070833312018837509299360000251974_2
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328..._id=202411070835541518215338733730000250222_1
Hope that helps some.

 

[acm28]

Topping out at 95°C makes it useless for moving boiling wort. IMO, an MP-15RM is probably your best option..It's sold just about everywhere, just sometimes with different names. Here's a few links as a starting point:

Oh, right... that really explains it. It's a shame, it looked good but if so I'll have to go look for an MP-15RM.
Thanks for the links, but eBay in Europe is not a great option, with the shipping and the currency difference the pump is much more expensive. I'll try Amazon.es, they probably have it there too, or Vevor, I've never used the site but it comes up often when I'm looking for things like this.

Thanks again for the help!