Cherrie Sour Very Disappointing (What To Do?)

[Henkie040]

Hi all.

So I brewed a cherrie sour with Lallemand Philly Sour. Even before adding the cherrie pulp, after primary fermentation, I was unimpressed with the taste. It was not really sour, just really bland. No fresh twang whatsoever. Then I added cherrie pulp, which after adding made up one sixth of the total. Fermentation kicked back in fast. This was a couple of days ago. Fermentation is still happening, but it´s in its last stages. When I taste it now it is still bland. Neither the sourness nor the sweetness have any kick to it. Three sips of this and you´d be done. It tastes like what you´d expect a fruit sour to taste like after four years of hot storage and massive oxidation. I pitched the Philly Sour royally, so underpitching cannot be the cause. I do have to admit that the cherrie pulp tasted bland to begin with.

What to do? It´s a thousand liters and we´re planning to put it on tap for summer.

I´m thinking: malic acid/ citric acid? And maybe even add lactose as well?? To drive both the sweetness and the sourness up...

What do you guys think?

PS Not excited about Philly Sour at all, at this point...

 

[treacheroustexan]

Do you have a pH meter? Philly Sour should get the pH in the 3.2-3.5 range. Also, what fermentation temp?

This is the best practice of adding fruit from Lallemand:
The timing of fruit additions will affect the amount of lactic acid produced. › Fruit added in the first 24-48hrs of fermentation will increase lactic acid production due to the presence of more glucose. › Fruit added midway through fermentation (2-4 days) will increase attenuation without significantly increasing lactic acid production. › Fruit added after active fermentation has fnished may result in incomplete fermentation. WildBrew Philly Sour™ is highly flocculant and may not efficiently metabolize late sugar additions

A thousand liters? That's a lottt of beer lol.

 

[Henkie040]

Do you have a pH meter? Philly Sour should get the pH in the 3.2-3.5 range. Also, what fermentation temp?

This is the best practice of adding fruit from Lallemand:
The timing of fruit additions will affect the amount of lactic acid produced. › Fruit added in the first 24-48hrs of fermentation will increase lactic acid production due to the presence of more glucose. › Fruit added midway through fermentation (2-4 days) will increase attenuation without significantly increasing lactic acid production. › Fruit added after active fermentation has fnished may result in incomplete fermentation. WildBrew Philly Sour™ is highly flocculant and may not efficiently metabolize late sugar additions

A thousand liters? That's a lottt of beer lol.

Ferm temp is 24 C / 75 F.

I will check PH on Monday, after fermentation.

And ****, yes, I should have added fruit earlier.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

At the risk facing some skepticism, here’s an unconventional way, add an Indian spice called Amchur, dried mango powder. I use it when making sour beer. Take out a litre of beer, add small quantity and see if you like it. You have nothing to lose. You can get it on Amazon etc. or in Indian grocery stores. It should not alter the aroma in bad way.

Everest Dry Mango Powder, 100g Carton : Amazon.in: Grocery & Gourmet Foods

Everest Dry Mango Powder, 100g Carton : Amazon.in: Grocery & Gourmet Foods

www.amazon.in

 

[towgunner11h]

I have brewed two beers with PS. One raspberry and one peach. Made them like wine with fruit in primary. Both came out perfectly sour.

 

[pdxal]

Wow, 1000 liters is a ton of beer. For us Americans about 250 gallons.
We're talking about how to save the beer at this point.
From treacheroustexan's post quoting Lallemand, maybe you should try to swirl/re-suspend the yeast/bacteria and see if it will kick back in and attenuate more.
You might try taking out a small sample and carbonate it to see if carbonation/carbonic acid maybe adds some 'bite' or crispness to the beer that makes it taste better. Often, flat compared to carbonated beer is very different.
If neither help, then you might try malic/citric acid or Amchur.
Good luck with this, and please report back on your results.

 

[staffordj]

I made a cherry sour with Philly sour. It smells like cherry and tastes like a plain dry apple cider. Very refreshing, but not a lot to it.

 

[Henkie040]

At the risk facing some skepticism, here’s an unconventional way, add an Indian spice called Amchur, dried mango powder. I use it when making sour beer. Take out a litre of beer, add small quantity and see if you like it. You have nothing to lose. You can get it on Amazon etc. or in Indian grocery stores. It should not alter the aroma in bad way.

Everest Dry Mango Powder, 100g Carton : Amazon.in: Grocery & Gourmet Foods

Everest Dry Mango Powder, 100g Carton : Amazon.in: Grocery & Gourmet Foods

www.amazon.in

Thanks!

 

[Henkie040]

I have brewed two beers with PS. One raspberry and one peach. Made them like wine with fruit in primary. Both came out perfectly sour.

So I guess it's about adding fruit in primary...

 

[towgunner11h]

So I guess it's about adding fruit in primary...

Could be- I vaguely remember getting on the Lallemond website and reading up on the "how to" part- don't remember anything difficult about it.

 

[Henkie040]

Could be- I vaguely remember getting on the Lallemond website and reading up on the "how to" part- don't remember anything difficult about it.

Gonna try that with new batch

 

[Henkie040]

Meanwhile... Added malic acid... Made it somewhat better. Will be adding lacto today too.
I probably wont have to throw it out, but it will def be my most dissappointing beer so far :-(
Next time: get sour cherries instead of sweet ones and add them during primary.

 

[Miraculix]

Add a Brett blend with multiple other bacteria, put it away and serve it in the summer next year.

 

[Miraculix]

Meanwhile... Added malic acid... Made it somewhat better. Will be adding lacto today too.
I probably wont have to throw it out, but it will def be my most dissappointing beer so far :-(
Next time: get sour cherries instead of sweet ones and add them during primary.

Woops, missed this one. Ignore my previous post then.

 

[Henkie040]

Woops, missed this one. Ignore my previous post then.

Yeah, and brett in brewery too big of a risk, I´m afraid.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, and brett in brewery too big of a risk, I´m afraid.

Ok, I can understand that. Otherwise, a possibility would have been to brew a really really sour beer with a very hop intolerant lacto strain (I think it's called plantarum) and then blend the beers in the keg. You could have adopted the modern sour approach and bastardise it for your current situation.

 

[Henkie040]

Ok, I can understand that. Otherwise, a possibility would have been to brew a really really sour beer with a very hop intolerant lacto strain (I think it's called plantarum) and then blend the beers in the keg. You could have adopted the modern sour approach and bastardise it for your current situation.

Interesting!

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting!

You know this thread?

Fast Souring - Modern Methods

Making sour beer doesn't need to be complicated! These techniques are a good alternative to the antiquated kettle souring method. Co-Souring Method: Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal. Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice. Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher...

www.homebrewtalk.com

If not, you are welcome!

 

[Henkie040]

You know this thread?

Fast Souring - Modern Methods

Making sour beer doesn't need to be complicated! These techniques are a good alternative to the antiquated kettle souring method. Co-Souring Method: Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal. Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice. Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher...

www.homebrewtalk.com

If not, you are welcome!

Great!

 

[rallenhall]

Have not used Philly Sour, but just read this blog a few minutes ago. Lots of good information: Lallemand Philly Sour - Yeast Overview

 

[Henkie040]

Have not used Philly Sour, but just read this blog a few minutes ago. Lots of good information: Lallemand Philly Sour - Yeast Overview

Awesome. Will check it out.