Cheese kits? Equipment?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

AkTom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,981
Reaction score
1,538
Location
Big Spring
I’m about ready to irritate my wife... and start making cheese. I have been brewing for several years and have beer stuff. What do I need for cheese? Are kits a good way to start? Sorry for the noob questions. Most posts were old and some of the links weren’t active.
I also have a mini fridge and hygrometer. What other equipment do I need.
Thanks
 
I’m about ready to irritate my wife... and start making cheese. I have been brewing for several years and have beer stuff. What do I need for cheese? Are kits a good way to start? Sorry for the noob questions. Most posts were old and some of the links weren’t active.
I also have a mini fridge and hygrometer. What other equipment do I need.
Thanks

Good source, esp. when starting out. Nice people. Her book is a great intro.

Gianaclis Caldwell's books are excellent. She has a basic and an "artisan" book. She's great.

These folks are local (to me), and have a great selection of cultures, once you want to branch out more.

You have a good start on equipment. You could contact New England (first source) as they have good starter stuff. Thermometer, which I'm sure you have, some means to humidify is good - although it seems some people here have gotten by with lower humidity (meaning, 70 RH or so....I maintained 98% RH and 52F, very hard to pull off). pH measurement is helpful, but not necessary. Outside of that, a pot, some cheesecloth and a mold or two (not even necessary if you're making soft cheeses like goat chevre, etc.).

Good milk!

Anyway, some things to look at. I've been out for awhile, but I'm an experienced maker so feel free to ask away. Have fun!
 
Thanks. I need to source milk next. I’ll start out with a kit as soon as the milk situation is resolved.
 
I guess I don't believe in kits. Gadjobrinus is I think on the mark. Find yourself a couple of good books on cheese making. That, and a rig to enable you to press whey out of the curds when you mold the curds is also going to be important when you make hard cheese. Presses can cost a mortgage but you can make one very simply using food grade cutting boards and threaded 12 inch bolts (with washers and nuts).
Cheese kits tend to use dried bacterial cultures for you to inoculate the milk but I prefer to use home made kefir as kefir has just about every culture that is available from cheese making suppliers. (see for example, David Asher's The Art of Natural Cheesemaking, (Chelsea Green Publ, 2015).

Any milk is good for cheese making except milk that has been UHT pasteurized. With store bought normally pasteurized milk you must add calcium chloride to help repair the damage calcium molecules (the curds cannot form if the molecules cannot bind). I use K-meta to sanitize surfaces and molds...and boiling water to sanitize my pots and kettles.

The other thing is , in my opinion, it is better to use a double boiler to heat /cook milk/curds. That prevents scorching the bottom of the pot. So if you have two large pots, where either one can sit inside the other or one can sit on top of the other, and you fill the bottom one with water that you use to heat the top pot then you are home and dry.

Last point, there is a really good Youtube site run by Gavin Webber which I think provides good information both visually and verbally. You might check that out too.
 
I guess I don't believe in kits. Gadjobrinus is I think on the mark. Find yourself a couple of good books on cheese making. That, and a rig to enable you to press whey out of the curds when you mold the curds is also going to be important when you make hard cheese. Presses can cost a mortgage but you can make one very simply using food grade cutting boards and threaded 12 inch bolts (with washers and nuts).
Cheese kits tend to use dried bacterial cultures for you to inoculate the milk but I prefer to use home made kefir as kefir has just about every culture that is available from cheese making suppliers. (see for example, David Asher's The Art of Natural Cheesemaking, (Chelsea Green Publ, 2015).

Any milk is good for cheese making except milk that has been UHT pasteurized. With store bought normally pasteurized milk you must add calcium chloride to help repair the damage calcium molecules (the curds cannot form if the molecules cannot bind). I use K-meta to sanitize surfaces and molds...and boiling water to sanitize my pots and kettles.

The other thing is , in my opinion, it is better to use a double boiler to heat /cook milk/curds. That prevents scorching the bottom of the pot. So if you have two large pots, where either one can sit inside the other or one can sit on top of the other, and you fill the bottom one with water that you use to heat the top pot then you are home and dry.

Last point, there is a really good Youtube site run by Gavin Webber which I think provides good information both visually and verbally. You might check that out too.

Great points and I agree with Bernard on kits, though I started on a couple myself.

I have a collection of at least a dozen freeze-dried cultures in my freezer...I make a mother culture, typically, and rock the make itself with an active starter, much like brewing. I like the convenience and variety of having dried cultures ("DVI", common in professional creameries) handy, but whatever works - I've never used kefir myself, and have seen Bernard talk about it, seems intriguing.

The press can indeed be cheap. Look up "Dutch Press" on the web - recommend this style as it's easy to put together, and allows you to do different cheeses and their weight requirements quite easily. There was a guy who used to produce them (1st pic), beautiful little things, but unfortunately he's no longer around. The other pics are my truly ugly press, but with compound pulleys, I was able to get a ton of press power - see the alpine wheels fresh from the press. They require a very high pressure.

On milk, I'm lucky as I get raw milk fresh, about 30 min. away. It's Ayshire milk, which is basically like buying homogenized milk straight from the cow - the fat globules are small and uniform. Excellent milk.

There are "creamline" milks out there, but as they're pasteurized, I don't know it's that much difference to warrant the price, in terms of cheesemaking. Like Bernard says, avoid ultra-pasteurized, as it denatures the milk protein so much it's impossible to get a good, solid curd knitting. Adding CaCl to pasteurized milk will help re-establish a proper Ca++ balance in the milk, which is essential to curd formation and knitting strength.

dutch-style-cheese-press-1_2048x.jpg
Press1.JPG
Presspulleycu.JPG
beaufort 2 (2).JPG
beaufort 2.JPG
 
I suggest this press. I've posted many pictures of it over the years, here on this forum. It's the last press you'll need :) Plans attached (see "sturdypress-plans1.pdf" at the bottom of this post).

Also, I attached a cheese pic, a manchego I made, just because :)

upload_2020-3-27_16-1-38.png


upload_2020-3-27_16-1-48.png
 

Attachments

  • sturdypress-plans1.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 62
I suggest this press. I've posted many pictures of it over the years, here on this forum. It's the last press you'll need :) Plans attached.

Also, I attached a cheese pic, a manchego I made, just because :)

View attachment 672956

View attachment 672957

Andy, that may be the press I was thinking of, guy is now out of business. It's an awesome, efficient press.

ps: Beautiful Manchego, btw. And I'm almost certain that's the press. I had one years ago and was bummed to see he'd closed shop (I don't have crap for tools, else I'd have just built it as well. Yours looks great).

Edit 2: "Sturdy Press" I think, it was called. Not the first one in my post, as I said mistakenly. Andy's is the one I'm thinking of.
 
Andy, that may be the press I was thinking of, guy is now out of business. It's an awesome, efficient press.

ps: Beautiful Manchego, btw. And I'm almost certain that's the press. I had one years ago and was bummed to see he'd closed shop (I don't have crap for tools, else I'd have just built it as well. Yours looks great).

Edit 2: "Sturdy Press" I think, it was called. Not the first one in my post, as I said mistakenly. Andy's is the one I'm thinking of.

Yes, his name is (was?) Bob Samuelson, and yes it's the sturdy press. I had quite a bit of correspondence with him (he gave me a smaller, foldup version of the sturdy press called the Foldaway. I don't think he ever sold them, but I did some testing for him (it wasn't nearly as good as the one above). I haven't conversed with him for over 5 yrs.
 
I’m about ready to irritate my wife... and start making cheese. I have been brewing for several years and have beer stuff. What do I need for cheese? Are kits a good way to start? Sorry for the noob questions. Most posts were old and some of the links weren’t active.
I also have a mini fridge and hygrometer. What other equipment do I need.
Thanks

Cheese is more difficult to get right than beer. So, temper your expectations.

Temperature and humidity are important (especially for certain cheese, like camembert and other bloomy rinds). Same as beer. Humidity is pretty easy to control by just putting the cheese wheel in a closed plastic bin. They give off whey as they age, so you'll want them off the bottom (get a sushi mat from the grocer).

The milk is ultra-important. Raw is best, of course, but few have access to that. I think many of the failures I've had were due solely to that. As stated above, don't even consider ultra-pastuerized - it won't work. And, organic milk is ALWAYS ultra-pastuerized.

Everything you need, except the milk, is available at cheesemaking.com. They have some recipes there that will work (I've made many of them). Go through one of those recipes and jot down the things you'll need for it. You can improvise somewhat, but you'll need to buy some cheesecloth, rennet, few other cheesy things.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
 
You can see tons of recipes at Cheesemaking.com, Rikki Carroll's site. That's where I started.

You can start with soft cheese really easily, and it's sooooo good! At HomebrewCon last year, I had my friend (she was local) source fresh goat's milk, and we made a very simple chevre to serve. That's a great start, so you can see what a 'clean break' is, and still have cheese really quickly!

New England Cheesemaking Supply gave me permission to use their photos and their recipe in our presentation, and it was this recipe https://cheesemaking.com/collections/recipes/products/chevre-goat-cheese-recipe
 
I downloaded and printed the press plans, watched a video, started makings a list of things I NEED!
My wife can’t eat cheese. She’s going to hate me! Oh well, let the cheesey times roll!
 
Ha! I made the same post about 3 months ago when I started my cheese journey.

I ended up getting a few of the starter kits from Cheesemaking.com. I also bought a couple molds, bamboo sheets, an extra large SS colander, measuring spoons for cheese making (SS and crazy small).

I built the a cheese press that’s a PITA but OK for now.

I had access to raw cow milk which I have since learned is a royal PITA. Just use store bought whole milk that is not Ultra Pasteurized. I thought it would be hard to find but turns out it’s in every store...just look.

One of my favorites so far is also the easiest...Framage Blanc....good stuff. I had good luck with Feta and Gouda. My cheddar was not very good but I attribute that to messing with raw milk.

Enjoy!
 
You can see tons of recipes at Cheesemaking.com, Rikki Carroll's site. That's where I started.

You can start with soft cheese really easily, and it's sooooo good! At HomebrewCon last year, I had my friend (she was local) source fresh goat's milk, and we made a very simple chevre to serve. That's a great start, so you can see what a 'clean break' is, and still have cheese really quickly!

New England Cheesemaking Supply gave me permission to use their photos and their recipe in our presentation, and it was this recipe https://cheesemaking.com/collections/recipes/products/chevre-goat-cheese-recipe

Rikki is great, and Jim, their technical guy, knows a lot about cheese. Nice guy, he was nice to share some drooling pics and technical lore from his travels in the alpine regions with me.

He does the recipes on the site.

Second Yooper's love of soft cheese. It's a great cheese to start with, and you'll be blown away when you drain, salt and eat your batches - as good as you can get anywhere.

I had access to raw cow milk which I have since learned is a royal PITA. Enjoy!


Just curious, what did you find was a PITA? I have 4 ayrshire girls whose raw milk I drink and use constantly, love it, and have made wonderful cheeses with them over many years (been judged by Euro judges with top marks, which is the best honor I could ever have wanted, since it's their styles I make).

Nothing wrong with P & H (and a touch of CaCl, usually), but for me there's no comparison. Now, I make almost strictly hard, alpine French cheeses, and they age out - so it does make a difference, with the native cultures in the raw milk. But milk gets so hammered between pasteurization and homogenization (of the two, actually, I'd prefer the past., esp. a long, low process. Homogenization is literally murder on fat globules) that even accounting for the native flora, it's just a rounder, fuller milk.

It's also such an extraordinary thing, to drink and use milk from cows pastured on grass paddocks - summer, herbaceous and floral, winter, creamier, fatter, less complex, but more rich. I can literally taste the seasons in the cheese and find that's an incredible gift.

My girlfriends. The one on the right, she of the one horn, is Lola, my best girl. She has slowed some, but she used to come running like a dog when I walked out to the paddock. Never seen anything like it. Love them!

Isabella and Lola.JPG
 
Everything you said about raw milk is exactly why I leased 1/2 a Jersey cow and drove 2hr to pick up 2G of raw milk once a month for 3 months......

...and never got a decent curd set....royal PITA....

...i talked to Jim (Ricki’s technical guy, and yes he’s awesome) and he said he usually uses pasteurized milk and that raw milk needs to be used within 1 or 2 days of milking. Unfortunately, my situation just doesn’t allow me to acquire and process the raw milk in that time frame.
 
Everything you said about raw milk is exactly why I leased 1/2 a Jersey cow and drove 2hr to pick up 2G of raw milk once a month for 3 months......

...and never got a decent curd set....royal PITA....

...i talked to Jim (Ricki’s technical guy, and yes he’s awesome) and he said he usually uses pasteurized milk and that raw milk needs to be used within 1 or 2 days of milking. Unfortunately, my situation just doesn’t allow me to acquire and process the raw milk in that time frame.

Yeah, that's true. You do have to get to the make if using raw milk. Ideally, right after milking (I brought back 40 gallons from the farm, 1/2 hr away, and the milk totes were encased in broken ice for the trip home. The milk was in the vat within 5 minutes of getting home....yeah, pretty uptight about quality issues, given how precious the milk is).

If fresh, I don't know why you'd get a poor curd set though, will have to think on that one. You're more apt to end up with just some really off flavors, as the native species (and enzyme reactions) would have a chance to take off before you get to the make - in ways you wouldn't want. Cheese is controlled milk spoilage.

If I'm getting a poor curd set, particularly with raw milk, the first thing I'd be investigating is the freshness and strength of the rennet used. Unless it's old milk.

Were you getting no curds, or crappy curds, e.g., little, broken up bits? And was that the second you added the rennet, or close thereafter? If so, your raw milk had acidified, driving out calcium, and your rennet is way past its iso-electric point so is doing its damnedest to get the job done - just not much to work with. Old milk acidifies and depletes the bound calcium, so no matter how fresh or strong your rennet, you'll never get what you're looking for.

Nothing at all wrong with pasteurized milk. I don't want to mention it too much, but for folks interested, you could look up "pre-maturation" to explore ways to bring some complexity into your pasteurized milk, before the actual make. Please be careful. The process is not risk-free.

Or, just keep it simple, use P & H milk, and have fun. You'll make fantastic cheese.
 
^^^^ “keep it simple, use P & H milk, and have fun.“

I was using raw milk that had been kept refrigerated but was about 7 days old. I tried 2 different batches of rennet. Jim at cheesmaking.com actually sent me some liquid rennet free in his effort to help me....super folks.

I had to add about 3x the rennet plus calcium chloride to get a curd to set and even then it took over an hour. It just wasn’t worth the hassle to me.
 
^^^^ “keep it simple, use P & H milk, and have fun.“

I was using raw milk that had been kept refrigerated but was about 7 days old. I tried 2 different batches of rennet. Jim at cheesmaking.com actually sent me some liquid rennet free in his effort to help me....super folks.

I had to add about 3x the rennet plus calcium chloride to get a curd to set and even then it took over an hour. It just wasn’t worth the hassle to me.

Yeah, 7 days is way out. It was undoubtedly extremely acidic and populated with a ton of species you wouldn't want in your cheese. I would not have used it. I suspect the issue wasn't a lack of curd per se, but a really poor, poor curd, made up of tiny flecks of coagulated milk that would never bind.

In other words, instead of this:

lighter_9581f5cc-7886-4d38-8b9b-92e4b1bd36a1_1730x.jpg


Something like this. What happens when using old, highly acidified milk (note: this is proper ricotta. But it gives a visual approximation of what I'm talking about):

YduXn2Tu0nVJ7dMJayhSd6BrtUqqaaSYd2s5Ry9b7JJwLzSFYy7f1ydKCvWawLLp8ZYj2wzRJP-eYWWKWeJBvuM4SQbCdBqPx9K2psqkVjsVPA


Again, the bound calcium is what gives you your curd strength and that's gone under low pH conditions.

If you can't use it right away, then P & H is the only way to go. On the other hand, if you can use it fresh, raw milk is truly magnificent. Like wine, you can taste the place and, in the case of pastured milk, you can taste the season. Pretty remarkable thing.

These are all French alpine cheeses: Abondance, tommes, reblochons. All raw milk. Many, with no store-bought dried cultures.

paul rubbing abondance 2.JPG
beaufort 2.JPG
beaufort cheese image.jpg
PICT0001.JPG
PICT0007.JPG
tommes de grise.JPG
 
Last edited:
I got good curd after 90min, 3x the rennet, and adding CC. Curds every bit as good as your first pic up there. I made decent feta, cheddar, and Gouda that way...ok, the cheddar kind of sucked but the other 2 weren’t bad.

I just decided that the non optimal circumstances I am operating under made the effort of acquiring raw milk not worth it.
 
I got good curd after 90min, 3x the rennet, and adding CC. Curds every bit as good as your first pic up there. I made decent feta, cheddar, and Gouda that way...ok, the cheddar kind of sucked but the other 2 weren’t bad.

I just decided that the non optimal circumstances I am operating under made the effort of acquiring raw milk not worth it.

First, I want to reiterate for AKTom and all, none of this below is necessary to make good cheese. Just grab Rikki's or Gianaclis's basic book, and have fun until you want to branch out more, say, in styles, or raw v. P & H milk.

Secondly, the reason I'm writing some of this is to dispel the idea that there's something about raw milk that makes it difficult to deal with. So long as it's fresh, you're actually already ahead of the game, as it's already populated with lactic-acid bacteria's (LABs) and non-starter lactic acid bacterias (NSLABs).

So:

Yep, whatever works. If I were to have a better idea I'd need to know pH's, temps and so forth. For instance, if you didn't add in the extra rennet all at once but added it in later to try for a better curd, you've broken up the casein network each time, which is why we leave the curd alone to settle very quickly after adding the rennet.

You found what works, and that's good, but something just seems strange to me. If you used old milk you almost certainly used milk with a heavy growth of intrinsic flora in it. Many of these are LAB's, lactic acid producing bacterias. Most often, old raw milk would yield very acidic milk ("clabbered milk"). That does two things, causes renneting to happen almost immediately, and causes poor curd formation as you've lost almost all your calcium, necessary for the casein networks, to the whey. Adding in extra rennet won't do anything to that, if that is the case. It will only cause bitter taste, down the road.

To show what happens with curd rich in retained calcium, which is common to the hard alpines, see how flexible the cheeses can be:

DSCN0404.JPG
DSCN0405.JPG


This is a hallmark of properly made alpine cheeses. The calcium is a strong "webbing" giving that pleasing quality to these cheeses. Not "crumbly," which is a character of more acidic (in the vat) cheeses, but higher pH (in the vat) cheeses that acidify in a curve in the hours during and after pressing, post-vat.

On the other hand, if you "over-rennet" milk that is otherwise in good shape, you will tend to obtain firm, tough, rubbery curds, and syneresis, which is the process of curds expelling whey (dehydrating, basically), will be poor.

If you had strong curds, as you say you did - close to the pic 1 above - but it took a long time, that tells me you had insufficient LAB cultures, too low a temp, or some combination. You hadn't reached the isoelectric point for the rennet to do its work. Do you monitor the pH as you go along?

We should distinguish flocculation from coagulation, by the way.

Flocculation is the initial phase of casein network formation. Commonly determined by a "float" test, when something light - like a cut yogurt container - will no longer move when nudged, floating on the surface:

Screenshot_2020-03-28 Mastering Artisan Cheesemaking.png


From there, with artisan cheesemaking, one would typically use a "flocculation multiplier." I won't go into that here. Just a great way to end up with similar end product when using milk that varies throughout the year - watery in summer, more fatty in winter, stage of the cow's milking cycle, etc.

If you're talking 90 min. to flocculation, just an FYI, but you probably know 90 minutes is really, really long. If you use the flocculation multiplier method, as I do, for a tomme at 3X, that would mean 4 1/2 hours after renneting before cutting the curd. You're going to have a very wet, weak curd, even if you get clear "cuts." By way of example, I shoot for about 12-15 minutes flocculation, and with a 3.5X multiplier, a total of no more than 52:30 renneting before cutting, let's say. I should for 12 minutes to flocculation and so 43-53 minutes renneting before cutting.

If you use a "clean break" method and mean it took you 90 minutes, that's too long, but not crazy, so long as you can maintain temp during that entire period.

I can tell you when I was starting out, I had extraordinarily long flocculation periods. Like, crazy long, like your 90 minutes. I simply had not developed enough LAB activity to the point the pH dropped enough for the rennet to work. Nothing to do but wait. I learned to dial it in. Eventually, I went with measured amounts of mother culture, much like a beer starter. Ideal flocculaton time is much more bankable, using this method.

I'd ask, did you add the extra rennet in stages, as in, it didn't work, add some more and stir it in, didn't work, add some more and stir it in?

At any rate, glad you've found what works for you. I would just like to note raw milk is not a problem to work with, just things to do with it different than using P & H, as with everything - each has its protocol.

For me, I'm grateful to have such fresh, raw milk to use. But no one should shy from cheesemaking if P & H is what they have to work with. Stellar cheeses can be made from either.

No one should let any of this technical crap get in the way of just diving in. Like brewing, you can make great beer knowing very little of the more technical aspects of malting, mashing, brewing, etc., or you can dive in to learn more in order to tweak to a food more under your control.

All of it should be rewarding!
 
Last edited:
Are you still making cheese?

Nope, not right now. I won't *****, but I live in extreme pain. Believe it or not, hurts to spend any time doing stuff, causes a flareup. Cooking is really bad, takes me weeks to come down from a severe flareup when doing a serious dinner party, for instance. I've more or less lost all love of all things cooking. Bread allows me to keep at it, but I can take the breaks, you know?

It's also tough for me to do the kinds of cheeses I like to do in a mini-fridge type of cave. We're not settled and I hope to put together another true cave, something like the cave in the pics of me salting an Abondance wheel, above.
 
@Gadjobrinus First let me say how much I appreciate the tone and sentiment with which you are discussing this with me. Well done sir.

2nd ... I retract the broad statement that raw milk is a PITA. I don’t want others to fear it just because of my inexperience and situation.

3rd I earlier said Jim at cheesemaking.com uses P & H milk. Is just went back through the emails we exchanged and I am wrong..he most certainly uses raw milk. My apologies for the poor recall.

4th..Here’s my journey that I shared with Jim. I hope it has the details that allow you to deduce what was going on..
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
1st attempt was 1G batch of Mozzarella using store bought pasteurized whole milk. I used calcium chloride and 1/4 tablet rennet diluted in distilled water. No curd set. I assumed the store bought milk must have been ultra pasteurized even though it wasn't labeled as such and I dumped this batch and began looking for a raw milk source.

2nd attempt was 1G mozzarella again using raw milk that was probably 3 or 4 days old but always sealed and stored very cold. I used 1/4 tablet rennet but no CC as I did not think think raw milk needed CC...no curd set after 40min. In desperation I added more rennet and some CC and got a curd to set.

In researching, I found that dissolved rennet should be used within 20 min of being hydrated. I was probably hydrating 90min before I was using it and felt like I figured out my problem.

3rd attempt was 2G of feta w/ the same brand of store bought whole milk I tried the first batch. This time I used CC and diluted the rennet immediately before use and it worked! I thought my troubles were over.

4th attempt was 2G of cheddar and back to raw milk that was probably 11 days old but again always sealed and stored cold...I didn't use CC but rennet diluted immediately before use...no curd set. Again in desperation I added CC and more rennet and got a curd to set.

I continued researching and read where raw milk that has been refrigerated for some time may need CC added after all. My 5th attempt was Gouda 2G raw milk that was 3 days old. I added CC and was sure to dilute the rennet just before use....no curd set. After an hr I added more CC and another half tablet of rennet...I got a curd in about 20min.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/

I am really grateful for all the time your taking in posting and discussing this sir....you’re a credit to the community!
 
I downloaded and printed the press plans, watched a video, started makings a list of things I NEED!
My wife can’t eat cheese. She’s going to hate me! Oh well, let the cheesey times roll!
You say your wife cannot eat cheese, is she allergic to milk or is she lactose intolerance? Hard cheese generally has virtually no lactose left. The acids you use to culture the milk eat the lactose and transform it into lactic acid.
 
In my opinion, mozzarella is possibly the hardest cheese to master. The pH window is absolutely critical but it is small and if you are using cultures finding that window is not easy. Too low or too high and you cannot stretch the cheese and you can get a very grainy curd rather than a smooth paste... The easiest cheeses (in my opinion) are cheddared squeaky curd, and chevre (and this works really well too, even if all you have access to is cows milk).
 
You say your wife cannot eat cheese, is she allergic to milk or is she lactose intolerance? Hard cheese generally has virtually no lactose left. The acids you use to culture the milk eat the lactose and transform it into lactic acid.

She has tried hard cheese and it messes with her stomach almost immediately.
 
Is she East Indian or other nationality? There are entire continents that are lactose intolerant (though, everyone is tolerant at birth).

No. She’s a white girl, that knows how to cook. She does like Indian, Thai and Mexican food. Just with no dairy or eggs. She has a work around for most recipes.
 
In my opinion, mozzarella is possibly the hardest cheese to master. The pH window is absolutely critical but it is small and if you are using cultures finding that window is not easy. Too low or too high and you cannot stretch the cheese and you can get a very grainy curd rather than a smooth paste... The easiest cheeses (in my opinion) are cheddared squeaky curd, and chevre (and this works really well too, even if all you have access to is cows milk).

^this.
 
She has tried hard cheese and it messes with her stomach almost immediately.

That's interesting to me as well, because as Bernard said, theirs almost nothing left of lactose after aging. Begs investigation. I'm sorry your wife experiences this - I've a tetchy GI system for other reasons, and it sucks.
 
@Gadjobrinus First let me say how much I appreciate the tone and sentiment with which you are discussing this with me. Well done sir.

Oh, Moose, no, no, no, please - I wasn't trying to preach or come off like an arrogant pr!ck and if I did, I'm sorry. I'd never discourage people from using P & H milk, which makes great cheese. I made I don't know how much of that when I started out. I just feel lucky I found such a phenomenal source of raw milk to work with. When I was able, I helped these guys at their work and seriously - never have I seen more loved, more cared for animals. I got to know the personalities of each, when I never would have known these animals are completely individual and curious (big) creatures.

I wanted to make a go of it, producing using traditional ways only, even to the point of researching grasses, forbs, and herbs common to alpine elevations to see how they might work in WI's lowland clime (these plant species have unique chemical components which definitely give a lot of alpine cheeses their particular character (e.g., holes in "Swiss" or Emmentaler - propionic acid, found in precursor form on tons of alpine flowers. Lends a particular aroma/flavor profile, from lipolytic breakdown of lipids to short-chain fatty acids (also, butryic acud here. Think goat's milk), and these short-chain fatty acids to smaller, breakdown, aroma-producing products).

So, love raw milk for what it can do. But in no way did I intend to impugn going with P & H, and really don't want to discourage keeping it simple and just having fun. Thanks for your kind note, but it's all good. Look forward to hearing your experiences, AK (et al)!
 
@Gadjobrinus I assure you my appreciation of your approach here was sincere and no apology what-so-ever are needed here. You’re gentle inquiries to help explore reasons for what I experienced are welcome anytime!
I’d love to get back to raw milk at some point as I do appreciate doing things the traditional way. My fridge-turned-cheese-cave went out on me and I’ve not yet had a chance to get a replacement so I’m going back to some fresh cheese’s like Mozzarella and feta for a bit. My first mozzarella was “meh”.

Cheers!
 
In my opinion, mozzarella is possibly the hardest cheese to master. The pH window is absolutely critical but it is small and if you are using cultures finding that window is not easy. Too low or too high and you cannot stretch the cheese and you can get a very grainy curd rather than a smooth paste... The easiest cheeses (in my opinion) are cheddared squeaky curd, and chevre (and this works really well too, even if all you have access to is cows milk).

ayup. Funny, my neighbor walked in during one of the only times I had success with mozz. He watched in wonderment as I stretched the long strands between my gloved hands, then balled them and tossed into cold water. He thought I was some sort of magician. If he only knew how many times I failed. I made that batch with citric acid I think. I'll probably try again. It was a great mozz, but didn't have the buttery flavor of a buffalo mozz. I've tried once since, but with some danica in there, but I think that was again a fail. Gotta get back on that horse in April!
 
FWIW, Peter Dixon has a nice little handbook of his travels and cheesemaking and aging techniques, THE FARMSTEAD CHEESEMAKER'S JOURNAL, and I think, though I may not be recalling correctly, he's got some interesting stuff there on traditional pasta filata cheesemaking (though his love of bloomies is obvious). Might be worth a query. Great stuff on building a cellar, if you ever want to go that way (I know the guy "Kris" he refers to, in terms of the engineering for an underground cellar). Lots of recipes on his site, too. Here's his cultured mozz (.pdf). (he also has a direct-acidified version). Note he insists on P & H milk here.

Also, some good links.

Edit: Missed your post, Andy. I see that you use Danica. Have you tried TA61-62, the "fast" thermophilic? Also, TM81. Never used the TM81 as I stuck mostly to the TA-series for my alpines, but it's recommended by "Get Culture." (Actually, for my French alpines, I used the "slower" thermo series, TA50-52 series....if not cultured up from a mother as is done in traditional practice. The TA50-series can also be used in pasta filata cheesemaking).

I've not seen the Danica for mozz, though I get going after the buttery quality from the diacetylactis. Mostly used in softer stuff, in my experience (I tended to build up my own blends from single cultures, but often used FD for chevre, for instance). Their mozz recipe. They're local so I may be biased, but good people, over many years.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top