Checking my water

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joshesmusica

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My new Milwaukee 102 should be arriving on Thursday. I plan on brewing on Friday. I'd like to check to see that the information I've input into the Bru'n water spreadsheet is fairly accurate. I've found reports online for my area, but don't really know how reliable they are, 1) because I'm only about 85% sure of which specific pumping station the water is coming from, and 2) I just took the average for each specific category. All in all, it's saying the overall mineral content is pretty low.

I was thinking I could just type in something like 1L into the mash water portion of the spreadsheet, type in zero for all the grains, and then add a specific amount of lactic acid to the water in order to see if the reading and the spreadsheet line up. Do you think this is a good idea since I can't really send the water off for a more accurate report?

Would doing something like this actually help me glean any important information about my water?
 
I know you are on a tight timeframe, but there is a lot of information a reliable Lab like Ward's (USA) can provide for you as a brewer.

Since your grain bill impacts your ph, maybe you could do a mini "test" mash and check your ph levels to see if you are adjusted properly to get a good conversion. Your water's salts impact flavors, so maybe you can get away with a test mash for now, but I'd be sending a sample to a Norwegian test site like Ward's Labs when you get time. I had similar questions some time back, and it was AJ who suggested I do a test mash.
 
My new Milwaukee 102 should be arriving on Thursday. I plan on brewing on Friday. I'd like to check to see that the information I've input into the Bru'n water spreadsheet is fairly accurate. I've found reports online for my area, but don't really know how reliable they are, 1) because I'm only about 85% sure of which specific pumping station the water is coming from, and 2) I just took the average for each specific category. All in all, it's saying the overall mineral content is pretty low.

I was thinking I could just type in something like 1L into the mash water portion of the spreadsheet, type in zero for all the grains, and then add a specific amount of lactic acid to the water in order to see if the reading and the spreadsheet line up. Do you think this is a good idea since I can't really send the water off for a more accurate report?

Would doing something like this actually help me glean any important information about my water?

I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to see if your water pH will change with lactic acid? It certainly will.

However, the grains are a big part of mash pH and that's the crucial part.

You could do a test mash and check the pH and that would be a perfect check.
 
Actually, you can use the Water Acidification calculator for that. If you have a known starting alkalinity and you measure your starting pH, adding a certain amount of acid with known strength should provide you with insight about the water's actual alkalinity.

In essence, you are performing a partial alkalinity test procedure.
 
I know you are on a tight timeframe, but there is a lot of information a reliable Lab like Ward's (USA) can provide for you as a brewer.

Since your grain bill impacts your ph, maybe you could do a mini "test" mash and check your ph levels to see if you are adjusted properly to get a good conversion. Your water's salts impact flavors, so maybe you can get away with a test mash for now, but I'd be sending a sample to a Norwegian test site like Ward's Labs when you get time. I had similar questions some time back, and it was AJ who suggested I do a test mash.

I'm just not sure there is such a lab that I could do that with around here. That's the main problem. I know the mineral content is generally pretty low. But I just moved from the west coast to the east coast. They are geographically quite different, but the municipal's water report from over there had a much higher bicarbonate number than here. So I just wanted to make sure it was a fairly accurate report from over here. I guess a mini-mash might be the best way to go.

I'm not sure what you're asking. You want to see if your water pH will change with lactic acid? It certainly will.

However, the grains are a big part of mash pH and that's the crucial part.

You could do a test mash and check the pH and that would be a perfect check.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I know the acid addition will most certainly drop the pH. What I want to know is if it would drop it to the amount that the bru'n water spreadsheet predicts after I have typed in the amount of mineral content from the report, but not having entered any grains. I suppose I could just go by a couple hundred grams of grains and do a couple of mini-mashes though to see what happens.

Actually, you can use the Water Acidification calculator for that. If you have a known starting alkalinity and you measure your starting pH, adding a certain amount of acid with known strength should provide you with insight about the water's actual alkalinity.

In essence, you are performing a partial alkalinity test procedure.

Is that on the spreadsheet or is there an online link you have to a good one?

It's not like the mineral content is very high here, but I guess I just want to be able to predict fairly accurately on a batch to batch basis. Here's what I've input into the spreadsheet (based on averages from the entire year):

Ca - 3.2
Mg - 0.3
Na - 1.2
K - 0.2
Fe - 0.1
HCO3 - 15.0
CO3 - 0
SO4 - 1.6
Cl - 1.1
NO3 - 0.1
NO2 - 0
F - 0.1

Reported total alkalinity - 12.3
pH - 6.7
 
I know the acid addition will most certainly drop the pH. What I want to know is if it would drop it to the amount that the bru'n water spreadsheet predicts after I have typed in the amount of mineral content from the report, but not having entered any grains.

Alkalinity is the amount of acid required to reduce the pH of something (in this case a liter of your water) from the pH at which it exits the tap to pH 4.3, 4.4 or 4.5 depending on who is measuring alkalinity. You are interested in it because you will need to move the pH of that water to a pH near 5.5 in the mash. If the labs were to measure pH to 5.5 instead of 4.3 - 4.5 the alkalinity number would be more useful to you. So given that you don't have lab service why not simply measure it yourself? This is, in essence, what you proposed. Take a liter of your water and add carefully measured amounts of lactic acid to it until you reach mash pH. You can then, if you wish, note that 88% lactic acid is 11.5 N at pH 5.5 meaning that each cc delivers 11.5 mEq of acid (you will want to dilute the lactic acid if testing 1 L but you could work with the full volume of water - it's cheap). The alkalinity to mash pH is the number of mL used to reach mash pH times 11.5 times 50. The alkalinity as usually given on a water report is about 1.1 times this. You can also enter the amount of acid you used into a spreadsheet with the volume of water you tested and then fiddle with the alkalinity entry (unfortunately most of them will have you fiddle with the bicarbonate entry as they don't accept alkalinity directly) until the pH matches the pH you reached. Converting the bicarbonate number to alkalinity then tells you the alkalinity of the water. This will be a rough number as you don't really know the strength of the lactic acid (not a problem as we will see in a minute), using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity can induce errors if the pH is above about 8 and you will have made measurement errors.

If you had a laboratory's alkalinity number you would use it to compute the amount of acid you would have to add converting the result to mL 88% acid required. But you already know this. What I would suggest is drawing the volume of water you are going to use and adding lactic (or phosphoric) acid to it until the desired mash pH is reached. If you undershoot (too much acid - too low pH) simply add more water to get back to where you want to be. You don't even have to measure precisely. Your goal is to hit mash pH. You now have before you a volume of water with 0 alkalinity to mash pH. Enter 0 bicarbonate in your spreadsheet program and proceed with the grain additions. If extra acid is needed for the grains or if the grains supply excess acid the program will tell you that you need, respectively, more acid or some alkali. If you used 20 mEq of acid to treat your brewing water and the program tells you that you need 5 mEq of base to compensate for dark malts then throw out the water and make another batch using only 15 mEq of acid this time.

It would be a good idea to keep track of the amount of acid used in order to estimate your alkalinity so you will have some idea as to what it actually is. If it is high you may wish to consider methods of decarbonation other than adding acid.
 
Alkalinity is the amount of acid required to reduce the pH of something (in this case a liter of your water) from the pH at which it exits the tap to pH 4.3, 4.4 or 4.5 depending on who is measuring alkalinity. You are interested in it because you will need to move the pH of that water to a pH near 5.5 in the mash. If the labs were to measure pH to 5.5 instead of 4.3 - 4.5 the alkalinity number would be more useful to you. So given that you don't have lab service why not simply measure it yourself? This is, in essence, what you proposed. Take a liter of your water and add carefully measured amounts of lactic acid to it until you reach mash pH. You can then, if you wish, note that 88% lactic acid is 11.5 N at pH 5.5 meaning that each cc delivers 11.5 mEq of acid (you will want to dilute the lactic acid if testing 1 L but you could work with the full volume of water - it's cheap). The alkalinity to mash pH is the number of mL used to reach mash pH times 11.5 times 50. The alkalinity as usually given on a water report is about 1.1 times this. You can also enter the amount of acid you used into a spreadsheet with the volume of water you tested and then fiddle with the alkalinity entry (unfortunately most of them will have you fiddle with the bicarbonate entry as they don't accept alkalinity directly) until the pH matches the pH you reached. Converting the bicarbonate number to alkalinity then tells you the alkalinity of the water. This will be a rough number as you don't really know the strength of the lactic acid (not a problem as we will see in a minute), using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity can induce errors if the pH is above about 8 and you will have made measurement errors.

If you had a laboratory's alkalinity number you would use it to compute the amount of acid you would have to add converting the result to mL 88% acid required. But you already know this. What I would suggest is drawing the volume of water you are going to use and adding lactic (or phosphoric) acid to it until the desired mash pH is reached. If you undershoot (too much acid - too low pH) simply add more water to get back to where you want to be. You don't even have to measure precisely. Your goal is to hit mash pH. You now have before you a volume of water with 0 alkalinity to mash pH. Enter 0 bicarbonate in your spreadsheet program and proceed with the grain additions. If extra acid is needed for the grains or if the grains supply excess acid the program will tell you that you need, respectively, more acid or some alkali. If you used 20 mEq of acid to treat your brewing water and the program tells you that you need 5 mEq of base to compensate for dark malts then throw out the water and make another batch using only 15 mEq of acid this time.

It would be a good idea to keep track of the amount of acid used in order to estimate your alkalinity so you will have some idea as to what it actually is. If it is high you may wish to consider methods of decarbonation other than adding acid.

I think I get what you are saying, and I get the impression you understood what I was getting at.

So I should measure my pH of my water, and check to see that it lines up with the report first. Then I will add my 88% lactic acid until it measures 5.5. What amount of water would you recommend that I start with if it's easiest for me to add the acid in increments of .1ml?

Can you explain what you mean by a laboratory's alkalinity number? Is it just the total alkalinity? In that case it was given as mmol/l which I found a converter which told me it was 12.3ppm CaCO3. This is what I input into the spreadsheet. Basically I'm just wanting to see if the output of the spreadsheet matches up with what I measure. But then I realized that the spreadsheet isn't even correct until I input some grains. So maybe I should just do a mini test mash in order to see what happens. I suppose I could by a few hundred grams of grains and do a few mini test mashes in order to test it more than just once.
 
Alkalinity is the amount of acid required to reduce the pH of something (in this case a liter of your water) from the pH at which it exits the tap to pH 4.3, 4.4 or 4.5 depending on who is measuring alkalinity. You are interested in it because you will need to move the pH of that water to a pH near 5.5 in the mash. If the labs were to measure pH to 5.5 instead of 4.3 - 4.5 the alkalinity number would be more useful to you. So given that you don't have lab service why not simply measure it yourself? This is, in essence, what you proposed. Take a liter of your water and add carefully measured amounts of lactic acid to it until you reach mash pH. You can then, if you wish, note that 88% lactic acid is 11.5 N at pH 5.5 meaning that each cc delivers 11.5 mEq of acid (you will want to dilute the lactic acid if testing 1 L but you could work with the full volume of water - it's cheap). The alkalinity to mash pH is the number of mL used to reach mash pH times 11.5 times 50. The alkalinity as usually given on a water report is about 1.1 times this. You can also enter the amount of acid you used into a spreadsheet with the volume of water you tested and then fiddle with the alkalinity entry (unfortunately most of them will have you fiddle with the bicarbonate entry as they don't accept alkalinity directly) until the pH matches the pH you reached. Converting the bicarbonate number to alkalinity then tells you the alkalinity of the water. This will be a rough number as you don't really know the strength of the lactic acid (not a problem as we will see in a minute), using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity can induce errors if the pH is above about 8 and you will have made measurement errors.

If you had a laboratory's alkalinity number you would use it to compute the amount of acid you would have to add converting the result to mL 88% acid required. But you already know this. What I would suggest is drawing the volume of water you are going to use and adding lactic (or phosphoric) acid to it until the desired mash pH is reached. If you undershoot (too much acid - too low pH) simply add more water to get back to where you want to be. You don't even have to measure precisely. Your goal is to hit mash pH. You now have before you a volume of water with 0 alkalinity to mash pH. Enter 0 bicarbonate in your spreadsheet program and proceed with the grain additions. If extra acid is needed for the grains or if the grains supply excess acid the program will tell you that you need, respectively, more acid or some alkali. If you used 20 mEq of acid to treat your brewing water and the program tells you that you need 5 mEq of base to compensate for dark malts then throw out the water and make another batch using only 15 mEq of acid this time.

It would be a good idea to keep track of the amount of acid used in order to estimate your alkalinity so you will have some idea as to what it actually is. If it is high you may wish to consider methods of decarbonation other than adding acid.

I think I'm going to have to do a test mash probably. I read in some other threads about drifting, and although I'm not using RO water, the ion content is fairly low in my water I believe. So it was hard to see it not drifting. It is coming out of the tap right now at about 12, so I also warmed it up to 20.

But, I still gave it a go. It seemed most stabilized right at around 6.67. I had 4L of water, and I added .5ml 80% lactic acid (I was wrong about two things previously - that I could add in .1ml increments, and that it was 88% lactic acid). When I did that, it finally stabilized at 4.02. Now I have no idea how to figure out the buffering capacity of the water with that information.

As far as the test mash, I was thinking of doing 200g of pilsner malt into 2L of water at 65C. Is this a good idea?
 
So I should measure my pH of my water, and check to see that it lines up with the report first.
The starting pH of the water really isn't that important in most cases.'

Then I will add my 88% lactic acid until it measures 5.5. What amount of water would you recommend that I start with if it's easiest for me to add the acid in increments of .1ml?
That depends on how accurately you want to know the alkalinity. Each mL of the acid is worth 1.24 mEq alkalinity so if you were testing 10L then your precision (not accuracy) would be 1.24/10 = 0.124 mEq/L. If you test 20 L of water it is 0.124/20 = 0.062 mEq/L and so on.

Can you explain what you mean by a laboratory's alkalinity number? Is it just the total alkalinity?
Yes. It is the amount of acid that must be added to a sample to decrease its pH to about 4.3.

In that case it was given as mmol/l which I found a converter which told me it was 12.3ppm CaCO3. This is what I input into the spreadsheet. Basically I'm just wanting to see if the output of the spreadsheet matches up with what I measure.
To be honest with you I don't know what alkalinity expressed as mmol/L means. I would guess that it means the concentration of bicarbonate ions in the sample under the assumption that all the alkalinity was attributable to bicarbonate ion. Or it could mean the number of mmols of protons required to shift 1L of sample which would give the same numerical result for a given sample. IOW I think that when alkalinity is expressed as mmol/L it means the same thing as mEq/L.

But then I realized that the spreadsheet isn't even correct until I input some grains.
Most of these spreadsheets aren't terribly robust. You could do your own (and learn a lot in the process). The basic math is set out in one of the stickies for this topic. what happens.

I suppose I could by a few hundred grams of grains and do a few mini test mashes in order to test it more than just once.
Always a good idea and instructive.
 

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