Changing a recipe = changing variables? HELP

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ninjapoodles1

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Hi, so I'm somewhat new to brewing, I've done 3 full grain brews before following exact recipes, which turned out nicely (except priming was off for a batch).

I am kind of questioning myself and worried about messing up the batch after changing some substitute ingredients in a recipe due to availability of suppliers in my region.

I started from this original recipe Tropical IPA recipe critique, ended up replacing the following :

YEAST
Omega Tropical IPA Replaced by White Labs WLP568 (sadly, the only available for fruity brews)

GRAINS
8 oz victory Replaced by 8 oz Aromatic Munich Malt 20L
7 lbs 2 Row
8 oz Golden Naked Oats

HOPS
1 oz Ahtanum @45 Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @45
1 oz Whirlpool @45 Replaced by 1 oz idaho 7 @45
1 oz Ahtanum @3days Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @3days

.7 oz. Amarillo @15
.5 oz. Citra @15
.5 oz. Galaxy @15
1 oz Amarillo @45
1 oz Citra @45
.5 oz Galaxy @3days
.5 oz Citra @3days
1 oz Amarillo @3days

Questioning about :
- OG is supposed to be 1.063 and FG 1.010 in original recipe. Will the target floats change with the changes I'm to do with the recipe? If so how do I find the new Gravities?
- Does this change the number of days of fermentation? Do I double ferment?
- Will it need priming?
- Should temperatures and timing change?

- Do my changes make sense?
- Thanks for reading this, you're awesome, I love you!

Thank you so very much for your insight, it is highly appreciated ! :yes:
 
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BrewnWKopperKat

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Welcome to Homebrew Talk.

Recipe software (like Brewers Friend) will be able to estimate OG/FG for your new recipe.

For the changes that you made to the hops, there are hop substitution lists available that will help with the changes you are considering.
 

Holden Caulfield

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For the most part, substituting equivalent weights of the same type grains (base, kilned, roasted, crystal, adjuncts) with similar lovibond will yield the same amount of potential sugars.

Your process will have the biggest impact on whether you hit the target OG as every recipe has an expected mash efficiency, brewhouse efficiency, boil rate, etc built into it by the author. For example if your mash efficiency is the same and you preboil volume is the same but you boil rate is half of the recipe, your wort will have same amount of fermentable sugar but more water, so your OG will be lower than the recipe.

The best way to take control over your brew day is to understand your system (typical mash efficiency, boil rate, good volume measurement) and learn to count points. The algebra is quite simple and if you have a refractometer, you can quickly adjust what is in your kettle to hit your OG every time.
 

marc1

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Hi, so I'm somewhat new to brewing, I've done 3 full grain brews before following exact recipes, which turned out nicely (except priming was off for a batch).

I am kind of questioning myself and worried about messing up the batch after changing some substitute ingredients in a recipe due to availability of suppliers in my region.

I started from this original recipe Tropical IPA recipe critique, ended up replacing the following :

YEAST
Omega Tropical IPA Replaced by White Labs WLP568 (sadly, the only available for fruity brews)

GRAINS
8 oz victory Replaced by 8 oz Aromatic Munich Malt 20L
7 lbs 2 Row
8 oz Golden Naked Oats

HOPS
1 oz Ahtanum @45 Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @45
1 oz Whirlpool @45 Replaced by 1 oz idaho 7 @45
1 oz Ahtanum @3days Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @3days

.7 oz. Amarillo @15
.5 oz. Citra @15
.5 oz. Galaxy @15
1 oz Amarillo @45
1 oz Citra @45
.5 oz Galaxy @3days
.5 oz Citra @3days
1 oz Amarillo @3days

Questioning about :
- OG is supposed to be 1.063 and FG 1.010 in original recipe. Will the target floats change with the changes I'm to do with the recipe? If so how do I find the new Gravities?
- Does this change the number of days of fermentation? Do I double ferment?
- Will it need priming?
- Should temperatures and timing change?

- Do my changes make sense?
- Thanks for reading this, you're awesome, I love you!

Thank you so very much for your insight, it is highly appreciated ! :yes:
Your OG will be influenced heavily by your system efficiency. I don't think your grain substitution will make much difference to your gravity, you could look up the max PPG (points/pound/gallon) or % extract of each of them to see. Or plug it into brewing software to do it for you, which is the easy way.

Days of fermentation will not change based on these substitutions, it will be influenced by your process - how much/healthy yeast you pitch, temperatures, etc. Secondary fermentation is discouraged nowadays except for special circumstances. I would not recommend it here.

It will need priming if you are bottling conditioning it. You could also bottle off of an already carbonated keg with a beer gun or similar device. You can also prime it in the keg, but would still generally need CO2 to serve it from the keg.

Temperatures and timing shouldn't change from those substitutions.

Your hop timing looks all messed up. By convention, the time of boil hop additions is how long they are boiled, so it's the time before the end of the boil. You've got a whole bunch of things at 45, and seem to have the whirlpool mixed in strangely. Whirlpool is after the boil, and the temp given is the temp to add the hops in at. So you would cut off heat to the boil, cool it to 150F, then add the whirlpool hops for 45 minutes, then cool to pitching temperature, transfer to your fermenter, and pitch the yeast.

I wouldn't substitute Ahtanum with Wilamette.

Here's my recommendation on the hops:

HOPS
Your subs:
1 oz Ahtanum @45 Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @45 - you have this subbed in twice. I'd use Idaho 7 instead of Wilamette.
1 oz Whirlpool @45 Replaced by 1 oz idaho 7 @45 - you have this subbed in twice with a whirlpool as a hop variety typo.

1 oz Ahtanum @3days Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @3days - If you can get Idaho 7 that might be a better fit for this beer.


Hop additions:
0.7 oz. Amarillo @15
0.5 oz. Citra @15
0.5 oz. Galaxy @15

1 oz Amarillo @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes
1 oz Citra @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes
1 oz idaho 7 @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes

0.5 oz Galaxy @ dry hop 3days
0.5 oz Citra @ dry hop 3days
1 oz Amarillo @dry hop 3days
1 oz Idaho 7 @dry hop 3days
 

Holden Caulfield

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- Do my changes make sense?
Just adding a few more thoughts.

I put your recipe into my program assuming a 3.25 gallon batch, which has been accurate over 40 all grain batches, a number of red flags emerge.

First, the recipe percentages will make a tasty beer. Beyond that please note...
  • To obtain your 1.063 OG you will need exceptional mash efficiency - which is highly unlikely. What is your process?
  • The yeast is a Belgian Saison, which produces flavors uncharacteristic for an IPA
  • The IBUs are much higher than target - the Idaho 7 which has ~13% AA will provide >65 IBUs all by itself
The OG and IBU redflags may be happening as I am using defaults for my system which may have very different system losses to yours and other parameters like boil rate. That said, as BrewnWKopperKat mentioned, you should put the recipe into a program to ensure everything is correct. Substituting hops with very different AA% can result in IBUs being way off and implementing a recipe based on someone else's system can lead to big differences in OG.
 
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ninjapoodles1

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Your OG will be influenced heavily by your system efficiency. I don't think your grain substitution will make much difference to your gravity, you could look up the max PPG (points/pound/gallon) or % extract of each of them to see. Or plug it into brewing software to do it for you, which is the easy way.

Days of fermentation will not change based on these substitutions, it will be influenced by your process - how much/healthy yeast you pitch, temperatures, etc. Secondary fermentation is discouraged nowadays except for special circumstances. I would not recommend it here.

It will need priming if you are bottling conditioning it. You could also bottle off of an already carbonated keg with a beer gun or similar device. You can also prime it in the keg, but would still generally need CO2 to serve it from the keg.

Temperatures and timing shouldn't change from those substitutions.

Your hop timing looks all messed up. By convention, the time of boil hop additions is how long they are boiled, so it's the time before the end of the boil. You've got a whole bunch of things at 45, and seem to have the whirlpool mixed in strangely. Whirlpool is after the boil, and the temp given is the temp to add the hops in at. So you would cut off heat to the boil, cool it to 150F, then add the whirlpool hops for 45 minutes, then cool to pitching temperature, transfer to your fermenter, and pitch the yeast.

I wouldn't substitute Ahtanum with Wilamette.

Here's my recommendation on the hops:

HOPS
Your subs:
1 oz Ahtanum @45 Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @45 - you have this subbed in twice. I'd use Idaho 7 instead of Wilamette.
1 oz Whirlpool @45 Replaced by 1 oz idaho 7 @45 - you have this subbed in twice with a whirlpool as a hop variety typo.

1 oz Ahtanum @3days Replaced by 1 oz Willamette @3days - If you can get Idaho 7 that might be a better fit for this beer.


Hop additions:
0.7 oz. Amarillo @15
0.5 oz. Citra @15
0.5 oz. Galaxy @15

1 oz Amarillo @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes
1 oz Citra @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes
1 oz idaho 7 @ whirlpool, 150F, 45 minutes

0.5 oz Galaxy @ dry hop 3days
0.5 oz Citra @ dry hop 3days
1 oz Amarillo @dry hop 3days
1 oz Idaho 7 @dry hop 3days

Thanks so much for the information, very insightful !!

Concerning the OG, I'll try to plug it in a brewing software as you say to get a better idea of what I'm looking for.

For the days of fermentation, that's good to know, I also prefer a single ferment. Simpler, faster and less risk of contamination.

Priming wise, yes I will use sterilized tight grolsch style bottles like this one
51IfD1+hrsL._SL1000_.jpg
they worked very well for me in the past. I'm just never sure how much priming sugar to add, I'm guessing there's a calculator out there for this too! Unfortunately don't have much space for a keg, and I'm also a bit intimidated on how it works and where to get my hands on one.

OH I was very confused here then, I though that Whirlpool was a hop type, not a method. Mygod. You really cleared my head on this one just now. I've never done this method, I would be scared to introduce bacteria while doing so - is it safe for the wort?

Ok now I understand that the whirlpool is separate from the boil. So I have my hops during the Boil (Amarillo, Citra and Galaxy at 15 minutes remaining to the boil). Then there's the Whirlpool part after my boil (adding Amarillo, Citra and idaho 7 for 45minutes when temperature hits and is maintained at 150). Quick cooling to pitching temp. Day 12 of 14 days fermentation, I add my galaxy, citra, amarillo and idaho 7 so they infuse 3 days of time before bottling. Correct?

I see it says the mash should last 75 mins at 154, but I don't understand why 75 mins, I always though boil was exclusively 60 minutes o_O

Also , I followed your advice and changed my order of Wilamete substitution for Idaho 7 ! ;)

Again, thank you very much for the help !
 

marc1

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Just adding a few more thoughts.

I put your recipe into my program assuming a 3.25 gallon batch, which has been accurate over 40 all grain batches, a number of red flags emerge.

First, the recipe percentages will make a tasty beer. Beyond that please note...
  • To obtain your 1.063 OG you will need exceptional mash efficiency - which is highly unlikely. What is your process?
  • The yeast is a Belgian Saison, which produces flavors uncharacteristic for an IPA
  • The IBUs are much higher than target - the Idaho 7 which has ~13% AA will provide >65 IBUs all by itself
The OG and IBU redflags may be happening as I am using defaults for my system which may have very different system losses to yours and other parameters like boil rate. That said, as BrewnWKopperKat mentioned, you should put the recipe into a program to ensure everything is correct. Substituting hops with very different AA% can result in IBUs being way off and implementing a recipe based on someone else's system can lead to big differences in OG.
You're getting 65 IBUs from an Idaho 7 whirlpool @150F?
 

marc1

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Thanks so much for the information, very insightful !!

Concerning the OG, I'll try to plug it in a brewing software as you say to get a better idea of what I'm looking for.

For the days of fermentation, that's good to know, I also prefer a single ferment. Simpler, faster and less risk of contamination.

Priming wise, yes I will use sterilized tight grolsch style bottles like this oneView attachment 725169they worked very well for me in the past. I'm just never sure how much priming sugar to add, I'm guessing there's a calculator out there for this too! Unfortunately don't have much space for a keg, and I'm also a bit intimidated on how it works and where to get my hands on one. Everyone has their own specific process, I didn't want to assume that you weren't keg priming, for example.

OH I was very confused here then, I though that Whirlpool was a hop type, not a method. Mygod. You really cleared my head on this one just now. I've never done this method, I would be scared to introduce bacteria while doing so - is it safe for the wort? It's fine for the wort.

Ok now I understand that the whirlpool is separate from the boil. So I have my hops during the Boil (Amarillo, Citra and Galaxy at 15 minutes remaining to the boil). Then there's the Whirlpool part after my boil (adding Amarillo, Citra and idaho 7 for 45minutes when temperature hits and is maintained at 150). Quick cooling to pitching temp. Day 12 of 14 days fermentation, I add my galaxy, citra, amarillo and idaho 7 so they infuse 3 days of time before bottling. Correct? Sounds right

I see it says the mash should last 75 mins at 154, but I don't understand why 75 mins, I always though boil was exclusively 60 minutes o_O 75 minute MASH, not 75 minute BOIL. Mash is often shown as 60 minutes too, but that's a personal process issue. Some people mash overnight. Might it make a slightly different beer? Sure. Brewing is about adapting to your specific process. If you want to follow this recipe, 75 minute MASH is fine. You can also boil as long as you want, typically they are 60-90 minutes, but people do shorter and longer ones. You just have to account for the boil off. If a boil length isn't given, I would assume it was 60 minutes.

Also , I followed your advice and changed my order of Wilamete substitution for Idaho 7 ! ;)

Again, thank you very much for the help !
 

marc1

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I threw it quick and dirty into brewers friend, and it looks like it would be OK. A lot if it is how the assumptions work out in your specific system, which you will figure out over the course of many all grain brews.

This assumed a half gallon loss of kettle trub from the hops and a gallon of boil off.

1617993529803.png
 

Holden Caulfield

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I threw it quick and dirty into brewers friend, and it looks like it would be OK.
I may be crazy, or I don't understand the Brewer's Friend calculator, but something doesn't add up. If you end up with 3.75 gallons post boil and the total number of points in kettle are 205 @ 70% efficiency (181+12+12) then the expected OG in the kettle, post boil, should be ~ 205/3.75 = 1.055 (perhaps 4% higher ,1.057, as I don't know how Brewer's friend handles post boil shrinkage to room pitching temperatures)

Anyway, just shedding more light on how it is important that any recipe must be adapted to a home brewers process to hit OG targets.
 

Holden Caulfield

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You're getting 65 IBUs from an Idaho 7 whirlpool @150F?
1 oz Whirlpool @45 Replaced by 1 oz idaho 7 @45
^This made it seem like the hops schedule included 1 oz of Idaho 7 @ 45 mins. I looked up Idaho 7 and it has an AA% between 13 and 15% which would provide a very large amount bitterness. I just wanted to illustrate the point that along with all the other early hop additions, the hop recipe needs serious attention.
 

marc1

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I may be crazy, or I don't understand the Brewer's Friend calculator, but something doesn't add up. If you end up with 3.75 gallons post boil and the total number of points in kettle are 205 @ 70% efficiency (181+12+12) then the expected OG in the kettle, post boil, should be ~ 205/3.75 = 1.055 (perhaps 4% higher ,1.057, as I don't know how Brewer's friend handles post boil shrinkage to room pitching temperatures)

Anyway, just shedding more light on how it is important that any recipe must be adapted to a home brewers process to hit OG targets.
Looking at it, I think the 70% is overall and includes kettle losses. 205/3.25 = 63

So you'd have to hit 80% pre-boil. Unlikely for a first try at all grain, but possible. Anyway, that won't be affected by the grain substitution.
 
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ninjapoodles1

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OK @ninjapoodles1 , brew it and let us know how it comes out!
Thanks again to everyone for their help, it was incredibly helpful !

Yes, I will definitely brew it and keep you guys updated. Will try to keep track of every steps and statistics of ongoing brew to see where good deeds and mistakes take place in order to gain hindsight on the brew/recipe :)
 
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ninjapoodles1

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OK @ninjapoodles1 , brew it and let us know how it comes out!
UPDATE

So I brewed the batch 4/15/21 afternoon and it went surprisingly well, considering I do not have any fancy tech, and nearly hit OG target with a 1.058 in the end. I have no drum filter, so there was a considerable amount of gunk, but I did my best to leave the most behind.
177091726_914318252686746_4510873462150499200_n.jpg

Yeast was pitched and started nearly immediately, voraciously like I've never seen yeast craving sugars like this one.

Day 0 (15'th) : Airlock started popping an hour after pitch, every second or so.
Day 1 (16'th) : pop every 1 second or so.
Day 2 (17'th) : pop every 3 seconds or so.
Day 3 (18'th) : pop every 15 seconds or so.
Day 4 (19'th) : pop every 60-90 seconds or so.
Day 5 (20'th) : I kind of got alarmed as it only had a pop every few minutes. Barely no activity.
Day 6 (21'th) : I saw there was a pop after monitoring for over 10mins.

Day 7 (Today) : I'm unsure if yeast has died, I know saison yeast love a bit warmer temperature, its at 73.5 right now wrapped in dark mesh silks to prevent light.

I see nothing happening, so I tested gravity and saw it was about 1.005 ish. Colour looks nice. No fuz, or problems whatsoever. I don't know if other people do this or if it's common practice, but I tasted the sample I got from testing gravity and it was nice, very dry (near no sugar content so), aromatic, fruity, a bit of a bitter end and nice hop flavors in general. Will probably add more dry hops day 3 than recipe ask to get a bigger punch.

I don't know if I'm supposed to let it go up to day 14 to let flavors develop more? Or to throw my 3 day hops? Not sure about what to do at this point hahaha, but I'm not disappointed so far !

Let me know what you guys think :D

176597440_505731620562581_4618605975981785248_n.jpg
177292671_466914721196017_2546708331800409872_n.jpg
 

marc1

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UPDATE

So I brewed the batch 4/15/21 afternoon and it went surprisingly well, considering I do not have any fancy tech, and nearly hit OG target with a 1.058 in the end. I have no drum filter, so there was a considerable amount of gunk, but I did my best to leave the most behind.
View attachment 726669
Yeast was pitched and started nearly immediately, voraciously like I've never seen yeast craving sugars like this one.

Day 0 (15'th) : Airlock started popping an hour after pitch, every second or so.
Day 1 (16'th) : pop every 1 second or so.
Day 2 (17'th) : pop every 3 seconds or so.
Day 3 (18'th) : pop every 15 seconds or so.
Day 4 (19'th) : pop every 60-90 seconds or so.
Day 5 (20'th) : I kind of got alarmed as it only had a pop every few minutes. Barely no activity.
Day 6 (21'th) : I saw there was a pop after monitoring for over 10mins.

Day 7 (Today) : I'm unsure if yeast has died, I know saison yeast love a bit warmer temperature, its at 73.5 right now wrapped in dark mesh silks to prevent light.

I see nothing happening, so I tested gravity and saw it was about 1.005 ish. Colour looks nice. No fuz, or problems whatsoever. I don't know if other people do this or if it's common practice, but I tasted the sample I got from testing gravity and it was nice, very dry (near no sugar content so), aromatic, fruity, a bit of a bitter end and nice hop flavors in general. Will probably add more dry hops day 3 than recipe ask to get a bigger punch.

I don't know if I'm supposed to let it go up to day 14 to let flavors develop more? Or to throw my 3 day hops? Not sure about what to do at this point hahaha, but I'm not disappointed so far !

Let me know what you guys think :D

View attachment 726671View attachment 726672
Excellent! White Labs says attenuation on WLP568 70-80%, so you're likely done with fermentation. However, I think you're attenuation is more than that, so maybe it will keep going a bit more...

I'd leave it sealed up so you don't get any air in there until you're ready to add dry hops. You could give it the 2 weeks to make sure that it is finished. Check gravity again and add the dry hops on day 11 and package on day 14. The exact day of fermentation to do these steps on probably isn't critical here.
 
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ninjapoodles1

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Excellent! White Labs says attenuation on WLP568 70-80%, so you're likely done with fermentation. However, I think you're attenuation is more than that, so maybe it will keep going a bit more...

I'd leave it sealed up so you don't get any air in there until you're ready to add dry hops. You could give it the 2 weeks to make sure that it is finished. Check gravity again and add the dry hops on day 11 and package on day 14. The exact day of fermentation to do these steps on probably isn't critical here.
Oh okay great, that's good news then! I'll give a feedback once it is done ! :)
 
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