Cascadian Dark Ale/Black IPA: Should it be a new style in BJCP?

[mrgstiffler]

I think people should stop quoting the BYO article.

The author uses the original proposal as the source for 3/4 of the article which details the style and then casually offers that the BA backed out all of the regional marketing propaganda in the last couple of grafs.

Nothing wrong with that. The author seems to support (and rightfully so) the original name.

 

[SPLASTiK]

I think it's more likely that the fact that there's a hop named "Cascade" played into it--rightly or wrongly, people are liable to think that a "Cascadian" beer has Cascades in it, just as they'd think a "Saazian Lager" or "Fugglian Pale Ale" would tend to indicate that a particular hop is in that beer.

I don't know, I think I'd like to give more credit to drinkers and commercial brewers than to think that. I think their reasoning more politics (Seccesion Ale and invoking the douglas fir tree flag symbolism) and attempting to minimize the whole regional marketing with the name.

The new Zymurgy also has a CDA article. I found it interesting that The CDA Symposium, BA guidelines and the style parameters in the Zymurgy article are all different... also it's strange that the Barley Brown Turmoil recipes are different in BYO and Zymurgy. They call for the same IBUs but the OG is 6 points higher in Zymurgy.

 

[olllllo]

Nothing wrong with that. The author seems to support (and rightfully so) the original name.

That's crazy.
That would be akin to someone attributing the birth of Jazz to Kenny G and wring an entire article about his importance and popularity and how it all began in Seattle with the soprano sax.

And then saying in the last paragraph that the governing body decided to acknowledge New Orleans and Louis Armstrong so they dropped all the Kenny G prattle.

All the stuff that Cascade man wrote about in his article was deemed irrelevant to the style by the BA. It doesn't apply, so why devote 75% of an article to it when talking about style guidelines.

 

[BeerBrent]

hi all!
i'm entering my CDA into a competition. didn't the BJCP just add a new category just a couple of months ago or am i mistaken? anyways, what category should i enter this brew in??

 

[camiller]

hi all!
i'm entering my CDA into a competition. didn't the BJCP just add a new category just a couple of months ago or am i mistaken? anyways, what category should i enter this brew in??

It's not on the BJCP style guidelines so I'm guessing no. Probably should be entered as Category 23 - Specialty beer.

 

[jescholler]

The new Zymurgy also has a CDA article. I found it interesting that The CDA Symposium, BA guidelines and the style parameters in the Zymurgy article are all different... also it's strange that the Barley Brown Turmoil recipes are different in BYO and Zymurgy. They call for the same IBUs but the OG is 6 points higher in Zymurgy.

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

 

[cookinwood]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

Why is your efficiency so low? Is this all grain or partial? I think 1.075 is the maximum. Lets talk about this.b

 

[beerchemist]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

This thread is so old that the name of this style has changed--enjoy your American-Style Black Ale.

 

[cookinwood]

I'm still calling it a CDA because I live in Cascadia.

 

[jescholler]

Why is your efficiency so low? Is this all grain or partial? I think 1.075 is the maximum. Lets talk about this.b

I didn't actually brew the beer, but I was reading BYO to get a style description and some reference recipes. The Barley Brown one looked pretty good so I punched it into my brewing spreadsheet assuming 70% efficiency. I got a higher OG than the 1.070 than BYO called for. I basically left it at that and moved on with my recipe development.

Then I ran across this thread, which pointed out that the OG in Zymurgy was different than that in BYO. I did some research and found that BYO publishes their recipes with 65% efficiency. I punched 65% into my brewing spreadsheet and got 1.076. Surprisingly, that is exactly what the Zymurgy article states. Therefore, I think there's an error in the OG of the BYO recipe. They state 1.070 and the evidence leads me to believe that it should be 1.076.

 

[Mongrel]

I'm still calling it a CDA because I live in Cascadia.

QFMFT!

We should stop all hop shipments until this argument ends.*

*ok, so I actually prefer IBA, but had to show regional solidarity

 

[Spintab]

I dig American Black Ale as it leaves a lot of wiggle room. The recipe I've used is a combination Schwarzbier/IPA with WLP001. But, what I picture Cascadian Dark Ale to be is something more of a liberally hopped dark pale, though I don't think I've ever had a beer specifically labeled as that. Both IMO fall into the same category, but have the potential to be very different. Just saying Black IPA and assuming that to mean an IPA but with a dark color doesn't do justice for the style as a whole.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

Thanks for digging it up! It just made me mad! But I didn't realize the date on the thread until I got to the end. HOPEFULLY, people don't still think CDA is and IPA with black food dye!

 

[Mattang]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the requirements for American IPA to allow for darker beers? Or are people brewing darker IPAs with the goal of more roasted flavors? I'm going to enter my dark IPA ina competition and it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

 

[Crustovsky]

it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

Uh, why?

 

[Beezy]

Uh, why?

Well from what I understand beers such as these tend to clog up the specialty category in competitions. There are so many commercial examples I think it should be a sub of IPA. The BJCP hasn't updated the guidelines in quite a while...

 

[mrgstiffler]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the requirements for American IPA to allow for darker beers? Or are people brewing darker IPAs with the goal of more roasted flavors? I'm going to enter my dark IPA ina competition and it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

You have to have some roasted flavors for a CDA. Otherwise it's just an IPA with coloring.

 

[Jayman931]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

 

[Beezy]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

It's more of a porter in the malt bill and I think has a completely different vibe than IPA. It's not that new either. But if like you say it is just an IPA then should it not be in the IPA category???

 

[mrgstiffler]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

They are very much NOT just IPAs. Which ones have you had?

My "off the top of my head" list of the CDAs I've had:

Widmer Pitch Black IPA
Laughing Dog Dogzilla
Deschutes Hop in the Dark
21st Amendment Back in Black
Hopworks Secession
Rogue Dad's Little Helper
Oakshire O'Dark:30
Barley Brown's Turmoil
Pyramid Discord
Fish Brewing Swordfish
Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous
Southern Tier Iniquity
Brewdog Bashah
Full Sail Bump in the Night

 

[Hugh_Jass]

It's more of a porter in the malt bill and I think has a completely different vibe than IPA. It's not that new either. But if like you say it is just an IPA then should it not be in the IPA category???

That's not necessarily true. Some examples of black ale do have similar qualities to a hop forward porter. Others are very close to an IPA with a higher SRM. If you closed your eyes when drinking my current black ale recipe, you'd swear it's an IPA w/just a slight hint of roast.
2-row, vienna, wheat, and Carafa II, an ass load of simcoe and amarillo hops, and simple, clean ale yeast (1056 or equivalent)

 

[Irrenarzt]

If done right, it really still is an IPA in a sense as it should be hop forward but with some roast undertones in place of any caramel notes. The problem is nobody is really putting any thought into the style and are just overhopping porters which is not the way this style should be built up IMO.

Start with a highly fermentable grain bill and sub carafa III in place of the small amount of crystal and you should have a decent black IPA.

For instance, take Vinny's Pliny recipe. I don't recall it exactly but it has a pound or less of crystal. Sub that out for carafa III and voila. You have a stellar black IPA.

 

[mrgstiffler]

If done right, it really still is an IPA in a sense as it should be hop forward but with some roast undertones in place of any caramel notes. The problem is nobody is really putting any thought into the style and are just overhopping porters which is not the way this style should be built up.

Start with a highly fermentable grain bill and sub carafa III in place of the small amount of crystal and you should have a decent black IPA.

For instance, take Vinny's Pliny recipe. I don't recall it exactly but it has a pound or less of crystal. Sub that out for carafa III and voila. You have a stellar black IPA.

Some breweries are taking the easy route, but not all:

http://beernews.org/2010/03/deschutes-hop-in-the-dark-cascadian-dark-ale-debuts-this-may/

Hop in the Dark is THE perfect example of the style.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Well, you seem to be the SME on the style seeing as you have had more than most. I will see if I can find the Hop in the Dark and see if I agree. I've not had many commercial examples as I have been brewing them myself. I find the ones I like the best to be the ones that are not as malt forward but I am open minded when it comes to learning a newer style if I can find a better combination than what I have previously done. I'm on my fourth iteration now as I just brewed one on Saturday.

 

[terrapinj]

def seems to be different takes on these amongst commercial brewers as well

i've had some that are just a very dark IPA and others that have the roastiness but still not in the porter territory

Hop in the Dark grains:
Pale Malt
Flaked Oats
Munich Malt
Dark Crystal Malt
Chocolate Malt
Chocolate Wheat Malt
Black Barley
Toasted Oats
Dark Candy Sugar

I tried the Stone 15th Anniversary Balck IIPA this weekend and really enjoyed it, nice balance of roast and citrus hops without overwhelming the palette

Vital stats: 10.8% abv, 100 IBUs
Malt Bill: Pale Malt, Cara-Bohemian, Carafa III Special, and Chocolate Malt
Hops Bill: Columbus (bittering), Citra (flavor/aroma). Dry-hopped with Nelson Sauvin and Pacific Jade.

and from the Stone Blog - perfect quote for this thread

“There’s this small faction of people that seems to think it can call Black IPAs ‘Cascadian Dark Ales,’ historical accuracy be damned,” Wagner explains. “So, we thought we’d lightheartedly lay claim to our own style, dubbing it ‘Escondidian,’ both as an homage to our hometown of Escondido, CA and as a gentle ribbing to those Black IPA fans worshipping a false Cascadian idol.”

 

[mrgstiffler]

Well, you seem to be the SME on the style seeing as you have had more than most. I will see if I can find the Hop in the Dark and see if I agree. I've not had many commercial examples as I have been brewing them myself. I find the ones I like the best to be the ones that are not as malt forward but I am open minded when it comes to learning a newer style if I can find a better combination than what I have previously done. I'm on my fourth iteration now as I just brewed one on Saturday.

I was going to post this exactly reply:

i've had some that are just a very dark IPA and others that have the roastiness but still not in the porter territory

Some of the ones I've had can best be described as a "Black Ale". They're bitter and roasty with pretty much no hop flavor. Others are basically IPAs with black coloring. My favorites are the ones that are towards the middle but leaning towards the hoppy end. Hop in the Dark goes even a step further and makes it smoooooooth.

I'm very adamant about this because some of my favorite beers are on that list. I really don't care if it's an official style or just a specialty. I just don't want it to be a passing fad.

 

[moinkyschmoink]

I used some blue food coloring in my latest wheat beer. It's midwesternwiezen then, right?

 

[Beezy]

I have never had a black IPA that didn't have the roastiness from the dark malt. If it's truley dark just for the sake of it. I think that's pretty dumb. The citrus hops and roast together makes a new flavor and its quite pleasant for me.

 

[Spintab]

IMO you should be able to close your eyes and either taste an IPA or a schwarzbier (minus the lagerness), both independently and combined. I made both a schwarz and an IPA last year and literally mixed the two recipes plus a touch of black patent. It was spot on with what I was going for. Hop forward in aroma and flavor with a pleasantly roasty backbone and a little bit of that camp fire charcoal from the patent.

There's a brewery RJ Rockers, I think it's in TN, that makes a dark IPA called Black Pearl. Awesome, probably the best black IPA I've had. 21st Amendment has their Fade To Black that's pretty decent as well. And last but not least, Heavy Seas Black Cannon is a great example of the style.

 

[Beezy]

I started on the 21a. Everyone I have had I liked so far. I think my fave is Thornbridge Raven from England no less. They were pretty hard to find. I went to the g-store the last time and there was about 6 or 7 different ones there.