Canning Wort Safely without Pressure

[thefost]

So I want to make a big batch of starter wort and am looking into canning. It looks like the safe way to do it is under pressure, but that seems to be time consuming or require a very big canner.

Instead, what I want to know is can I use the submerged boiling water method to can a bunch of wort. Then lets say I store the cans for a year or two at room temp. Can I then just re-boil the cans of wort, let em cool, and it will be 100% safe and ready to use for my starter?

 

[cluckk]

Boiler canning is only recommended for acidic things. You will have to check the pH to make sure it is safe. Some do it, but it is not recommended. I can jugs of wort, but they have been acidified with lacto down to a pH of under 4.0.

 

[ArcLight]

>>Can I then just re-boil the cans of wort, let em cool, and it will be 100% safe and ready to use for my starter?

I think that boiling will destroy Botulism toxin, so you are probably ok doing this.


Preparing wort without a pressure canner (using only a pressure cooker or boiling) puts you at a small risk of Botulism poisoning, that even if it doesn't kill you, can hospitalize you for a few days.

But the boiling will probably denature the toxin.

However, they may still taste bad, and those off flavors will end up in your beer.

I have an alternative suggestion - buy a bag of dry malt extract and make the starter as you need it. It costs a little more per serving, but you don't need to store anything, nor prepare the mix a year or two in advance.

 

[cluckk]

The safest way for wort is pressure canning. It may be a pain, time consuming and more expensive, but it is still better than botulism.

 

[ArcLight]

Boiler canning is only recommended for acidic things. You will have to check the pH to make sure it is safe. Some do it, but it is not recommended. I can jugs of wort, but they have been acidified with lacto down to a pH of under 4.0.

How do you raise the pH when ready to use it? I don't think yeast like that low a pH, do they? Or do you store it concentrated, like with a gravity of 1.074, and then dilute with water 50-50, and thus the pH will increase.

 

[stpug]

>>Can I then just re-boil the cans of wort, let em cool, and it will be 100% safe and ready to use for my starter?

I think that boiling will destroy Botulism toxin, so you are probably ok doing this.

FALSE!!! Botulism is only killed at temperatures closer to 250°F; boiling only achieves ~200-212°F. You HAVE TO use a pressure canner to achieve this. Acid is another way to deal with botulism - except the acid tolerant kind . Of course, I wouldn't acidify my starter wort to the levels needed to ensure safety from botulism.

Besides, how does "canned" wort help you if you will have to just boil and cool it again before you use it? Seems pointless to me. You can mix up starter wort and freeze it until it's needed, and then boil/cool without worries of botulism or pH - you just need freezer space.

 

[thefost]

>>
However, they may still taste bad, and those off flavors will end up in your beer.

I guess that's probably the most important question, will I get off flavors. If its only botulism that could create off flavors, then thats so rare that I'm not too concerned. If even 1 out of 1000 starter cans have some off flavors, thats acceptable to me. I'm just not sure if there are other things likely to cause off flavors.

 

[cluckk]

How do you raise the pH when ready to use it? I don't think yeast like that low a pH, do they? Or do you store it concentrated, like with a gravity of 1.074, and then dilute with water 50-50, and thus the pH will increase.

I don't raise it. I only do his with wort that I want acidic.

 

[cluckk]

FALSE!!! Botulism is only killed at temperatures closer to 250°F; boiling only achieves ~200-212°F. You HAVE TO use a pressure canner to achieve this. Acid is another way to deal with botulism - except the acid tolerant kind . Of course, I wouldn't acidify my starter wort to the levels needed to ensure safety from botulism.

Besides, how does "canned" wort help you if you will have to just boil and cool it again before you use it? Seems pointless to me. You can mix up starter wort and freeze it until it's needed, and then boil/cool without worries of botulism or pH - you just need freezer space.

^This

You are free to do it, but I personally do not see death as more convenient than the minimal effort it takes to make a starter. It takes less than an hour to make a starter with DME and most of that is waiting for it to boil or cool.

 

[stpug]

If its only botulism that could create off flavors, then thats so rare that I'm not too concerned.

Um, seriously???

Who cares about "off flavors" if you don't have a pulse I guess

Sorry to be so dramatic about this, but you're talking about a life threatening food born illness AND your topic title indicates you want to do this "safely".

 

[thefost]

FALSE!!!
Besides, how does "canned" wort help you if you will have to just boil and cool it again before you use it? Seems pointless to me. You can mix up starter wort and freeze it until it's needed, and then boil/cool without worries of botulism or pH - you just need freezer space.

The reason is I'm going to be stepping up from a slant. So usually its going to be 10ml -> 100ml -> 1L -> 2L or bigger as needed . I want canned wort ready to go in various increments ready to go in mason jars. I'm going to try fermenting directly in mason jars, and dump the entire contents of one mason jar to the next (I'll probably crash and decant the 1L batch before going bigger).

So since I'm using a bunch of mason jars, I figured that I could just boil the bunch of them when I'm ready to get my steps started. Thats a lot less time consuming than repeatedly boiling various sized flasks.

Also I wanted to use some half gallon mason jars I have, but they wont fit in my pressure canner.

But if boiling wont kill the theoretical botulism spores, I guess this is all a moot point =]

 

[cluckk]

Can you imagine this headline:
"A Homebrewer died of poison from improperly canned wort, but on the good side, he saved himself the hour it would have taken him to make a starter."

BTW, once you pitch the starter you add any toxins to the beer, so you risk not only your own health but that of anyone who samples it.

What I find funniest about the post about the 1 in 1000 chances is that you probably don't feel this way about risking an infection of your wort during fermentation.

A pressure canner is pretty cheap. It doesn't take much more time to use one than to use a hotwater canner.

 

[thefost]

Um, seriously???

Who cares about "off flavors" if you don't have a pulse I guess

Sorry to be so dramatic about this, but you're talking about a life threatening food born illness AND your topic title indicates you want to do this "safely".

Let me rephase that =]

What I meant was, assuming the botulism was killed from re-boiling (which I have just been informed is not accurate) then I wouldn't worry about botulism causing off flavors. Clearly, killing anything dangerous is priority #1. And since re-boiling does not kill botulism, this idea is dead.

 

[cluckk]

You are doing all the work of stepping up from slant to pitch and think pressure canning is too much work for safety?

 

[cluckk]

Let me rephase that =]

What I meant was, assuming the botulism was killed from re-boiling (which I have just been informed is not accurate) then I wouldn't worry about botulism causing off flavors. Clearly, killing anything dangerous is priority #1. And since re-boiling does not kill botulism, this idea is dead.

Glad to hear. Sorry to jump on you.

 

[thefost]

Glad to hear. Sorry to jump on you.

All good

 

[ArcLight]

stpug, next time read my entire post before responding like this.

1 - I said boiling will probably denature the toxin
2 - I wrote a few sentences below that statement that boiling is not enough to kill the Botulism bacteria. (actually it's the spores that are heat resistant)
After that I wrote you can probably boil the poisoned wort and not get sick, though it would likely taste bad.

FALSE!!! Botulism is only killed at temperatures closer to 250°F; boiling only achieves ~200-212°F. You HAVE TO use a pressure canner to achieve this. Acid is another way to deal with botulism - except the acid tolerant kind . Of course, I wouldn't acidify my starter wort to the levels needed to ensure safety from botulism.

Besides, how does "canned" wort help you if you will have to just boil and cool it again before you use it? Seems pointless to me. You can mix up starter wort and freeze it until it's needed, and then boil/cool without worries of botulism or pH - you just need freezer space.

 

[ArcLight]

Let me rephase that =]

What I meant was, assuming the botulism was killed from re-boiling (which I have just been informed is not accurate) then I wouldn't worry about botulism causing off flavors. Clearly, killing anything dangerous is priority #1. And since re-boiling does not kill botulism, this idea is dead.

Boiling wont necessarily kill the botulism spores, but it will probably denature the toxin, meaning you wont get sick. Consuming some food with the botulism spores is not what kills you, unless you are an infant or have a weak immune system.

What kills you is the toxin, which if boiled is probably destroyed.
Even so, the wort might taste bad, so why use it?

 

[cluckk]

What kills you is the toxin, which if boiled is probably destroyed.

Probably is a very important word in this context.

 

[passedpawn]

WARNING to anyone reading this post: DO NOT DO WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THIS POST. BOILING WORT WILL NOT KILL BOTULISM

So I want to make a big batch of starter wort and am looking into canning. It looks like the safe way to do it is under pressure, but that seems to be time consuming or require a very big canner.

Instead, what I want to know is can I use the submerged boiling water method to can a bunch of wort. Then lets say I store the cans for a year or two at room temp. Can I then just re-boil the cans of wort, let em cool, and it will be 100% safe and ready to use for my starter?

Yes. If you reboil before you use it, there is no danger. Boiling denatures the toxin, which is what can hurt you. But you MUST boil before using it again.

As others have pointed out here, boiling doesn't kill all the bacteria that create the toxin. But the bacteria aren't harmful themselves (they are all around you right now!)

 

[ArcLight]

Probably is a very important word in this context.

From the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention website:

>>Despite its extreme potency, botulinum toxin is easily destroyed. Heating to an internal temperature of 85°C for at least 5 minutes will decontaminate affected food or drink.


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/botulism/clinicians/control.asp

I added probably in case someone doesn't do a thorough job.
But if you really do boil your contaminated wort then the toxin is destroyed (not teh spores) and you could theoretically use it.

 

[thefost]

Thanks for the info, so it looks like my original plan was correct, that I could reboil the wort and be perfectly safe. After boiling I could do a quick taste test for off flavors to make sure all is good and then continue with my starter.

Being able to can 1/2 gallon jars without having to buy an even bigger pressure canner would be very helpful.

 

[atoughram]

Canning sounds like a PITA - I'll stick with DME and water for my starters.

 

[BigFloyd]

Canning sounds like a PITA - I'll stick with DME and water for my starters.

It's actually pretty handy. I toss 87g of DME into each of 5 1-quart mason jars, fill almost full with filtered water, shake em up, loosen the lids and put them in the pressure canner. I do two batches and I've got 10 quart jars of ready-to-use 1.035 starter wort that I store at room temp.

I wouldn't do this without a pressure cooker. I hear that botulism poisoning ain't no fun even if it doesn't kill you.