Cane Sugar Addition?

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jpcoote

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The Saison recipe I'm using (Raison d'Saison from Brewing Classic Styles) calls for 1 lb of cane sugar, but doesn't say when. Part of me says add at the beginning of the 90 min boil (or at least before the 60 min hop addition) so that my boil is at the desired full-boil gravity. But the other part of me says that boiling a pound of sugar that long is going to serious alter the color of the beer.

Should I wait until the very end?
 

peterj

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If you're doing a full boil I don't think it matters too much when you add it. Unless you scorch it on the bottom of the kettle, it shouldn't darken up any more than all of the malt sugar you're boiling for 90 minutes. The gravity difference with 1 pound of sugar will be minimal between an early and late addition. And wort gravity doesn't have as much of an effect on hop utilization as many people think anyway (especially when it's not coming directly from grains because the main effect is from alpha acids adhering to grain dust and proteins). So I would just add it whenever is easiest for you.
 

chrisroarshack

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I'm pretty sure that you should add it towards the end of primary fermentation, otherwise the yeast will adapt to eating the table sugar as an easy fix and will ignore all your malt sugars, resulting in under attenuation. But I'm foggy on where I've read that, and I've never had it happen personally.

Next time, I would boil the sugar in 4x its weight in water, let it cool and then add into the fermenter two days after pitching.
 

dobe12

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I use cane sugar in Saisons and sometimes APA's and IPA's to help dry them out. Use it near the end of the boil. Last 10-15min or so.

You can definitely add it near the end of fermentation. I've done it both ways, but have yet to notice any sort of difference.
 

unionrdr

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I add it at flame out. I like demerara sugar better (raw cane sugar), because of it's light brown sugar laced with honey flavor. Gives a tiny bit of color too.
 

jbaysurfer

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I've done all 3 methods: early boil, flameout/lateboil, and "feeding" the yeast after a couple days of fermentation.
Generally I do either the late boil or the "feeding" these days depending on the situation.

1)High gravity, tough to attenuate beers: "Feed"
2) All other beers: Late boil.

Hope this helps, I've had great results with these two rules of thumb.
 

brewbama

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The Imperial Red recipe I just did said to add it at flameout.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

Calder

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Add the sugar whenever it is convenient. I add it during fermentation, because it is convenient for me..

And wort gravity doesn't have as much of an effect on hop utilization as many people think anyway (especially when it's not coming directly from grains because the main effect is from alpha acids adhering to grain dust and proteins). So I would just add it whenever is easiest for you.
Where did you get that bit of information? So brewers who get great grain beds and clear sparges, and have good hot break are hurting their beers because they then get poor AA utilization. ....... And in the finished beer, a clear beer will also lose more IBUs than a cloudy one. I think someone gave you some bad information.
 

peterj

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Add the sugar whenever it is convenient. I add it during fermentation, because it is convenient for me..



Where did you get that bit of information? So brewers who get great grain beds and clear sparges, and have good hot break are hurting their beers because they then get poor AA utilization. ....... And in the finished beer, a clear beer will also lose more IBUs than a cloudy one. I think someone gave you some bad information.
Maybe I didn't phrase it well because it sounds like you're interpreting it as the opposite of what I was trying to say. I was saying that in general wort gravity doesn't have a huge effect on hop utilization. But the effect it does have comes from the iso-alpha acids adhering to grain dust and hot break proteins and falling out of solution with them. So with sugar there is no grain dust or proteins so gravity from sugar has little if any effect on hop utilization. So I suppose excessively cloudy worts (from grain dust) might have slightly less hop utilization, but again it's not that big of an effect. This is why I always use the Rager formula to calculate IBUs, because it puts far less emphasis on wort gravity. Also, if you're able to boil your wort then you're going to have a good hot break. So that factor should be pretty standard from person to person.

I can't remember exactly where I heard/read this. Could have been in a podcast or maybe around here or in a paper. I've seen it in a few places over the years. Also I've experienced it first hand when I used to do extract batches. I tried adding the extract late to increase hop utilization and there was no noticeable difference the many times I did it because there is no grain dust in extract and very little hot break proteins. I'll look around if I have time and try to find a source for this.
 

peterj

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Here's a thread I just happened to come across today that applies directly to this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/split-boils-488120/#post6331500

I haven't actually had time to sit down and look for another source for this, but I just happened to read this thread today at work. Yooper is a pretty knowledgeable lady and it looks like she got it straight from John Palmer who I would say is also a very credible source.
 

ncbrewer

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I can't remember exactly where I heard/read this. Could have been in a podcast or maybe around here or in a paper. I've seen it in a few places over the years. Also I've experienced it first hand when I used to do extract batches. I tried adding the extract late to increase hop utilization and there was no noticeable difference the many times I did it because there is no grain dust in extract and very little hot break proteins. I'll look around if I have time and try to find a source for this.
I've found recent references from BYO, Glenn Tinseth, and others who are highly qualified on the subject are also in disagreement. Here are some examples:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_utilization (On website - impact)
http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679 (2008 - No direct effect, but relationship)
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/3/0/4/30433c...31834041&hwt=a1babd357d2d091bbf481fb8c715d1b4 (2008 - Affect, but lower magnitude)
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/ (2011 - no direct affect, but strong correlation)

e-mail from Glenn Tinseth in 2012: “There is really no question about whether alpha acid utilization is related to wort gravity.”
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/02/2...-beers-with-john-palmer-beersmith-podcast-33/ (2012 – Correlation, but not due to solubility)
http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/37-hops/867-how-can-i-get-better-hop-utilization (2012 - Correlation)
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2010 (2010 – No correlation)
http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html#units (2013 on website today - Correlation)
 

peterj

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Yeah, I think there is a bit of disagreement on the subject. But I do feel that modern research is pointing to the understanding that the effect of gravity on hop utilization is not coming directly from the dissolved sugars in the wort, but rather from the alpha and iso-alpha acids adhering to break proteins and other compounds that come from the grain. In higher gravity brews, there is more grain which provides more of these proteins and compounds for the hop acids to adhere to.

Here is a link to a very interesting paper I found that addresses this subject specifically: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814610006643. Sections 3.3 and 3.4 are of particular interest. Here are a couple quotes that sum up the findings:

Our data in Table 4 shows almost no change in the isomerisation
yields when wort gravity was increased from 12 to 15.2 P,
whereas wort boiling at 22 P did result in a clearly lower isomerisation
yields (on a relative basis, 11% lower compared to 12 P wort
boiling).
This is more in agreement with the Rager formula which puts less emphasis on wort gravity at lower gravities and doesn't even take gravity into account until it's above 1.050 (this paper would suggest a lower end limit of something above 15.2 P would even be more appropriate).

In this experimental part, the possible influence of the presence
of sugar (glucose) or hop polyphenols as typical wort components
was investigated by adding these compounds to our buffer model
system (3,3-dimethylglutaric acid/NaOH; 0.1 M; pH 5.20). ... The results obtained did not reveal any negative effect of the added components on the a-acids
isomerisation yield in the applied concentration range. Addition
of glucose or hop polyphenolic extract gave rise to isomerisation
yields similar to those of blank experiments without any addition,
i.e., 42–43%. These findings are also in agreement with the results
of Malowicki and Shellhammer (2006) who showed that the presence
of sugar (glucose at 10 P or maltose at 10 P) was not a cause
of either losses of bitter acids or a change in isomerisation rate.
This quote would seem to demonstrate that the lowered utilization rate is not a result of dissolved sugars.

I'm not sure if the paper is public access or if I only have access because I'm on my workplace network so here is a screenshot of the pertinent portion of the paper:

EDIT for citation: Barbara Jaskula, Guido Aerts, Luc De Cooman, Potential impact of medium characteristics on the isomerisation of hop α-acids in wort and buffer model systems, Food Chemistry, Volume 123, Issue 4, 15 December 2010, Pages 1219-1226, ISSN 0308-8146, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.foodchem.2010.05.090.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814610006643)

hop utilization.jpg
 

peterj

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And here is the abstract for a source they cite in the previous paper (I couldn't get the full paper though):

Factors affecting hop bitter acid isomerization kinetics in a model wort boiling system; Malowicki, M.G., Shellhammer, T.H.; Department of Food Science and Technology, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331-6602, United States

Abstract

Various factors were examined to determine their impact on the rate of isomerization of α-acids (humulones) to iso-α-acids (isohumulones) during kettle boiling. A model wort boiling system was used that employed multiple 12-mL stainless steel vessels to heat samples (α-acids in an aqueous, pH-buffered solution with other compounds included as specified) at 100°C for 140 min. Concentrations of humulones and isohumulones were quantified at discrete time points using HPLC. Of the factors tested (glucose, maltose, calcium, and pH ranging from 4.8 to 6.0), none were shown to affect the rate of production of iso-α-acids. While pH had a marked effect on the concentrations of α-acids as measured, the differences may be attributed to solubility issues (since the solubility limit was approached and exceeded) that did not appear to affect the rate of iso-α-acid production. © 2006 American Society of Brewing Chemists, Inc.
 

ncbrewer

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This quote would seem to demonstrate that the lowered utilization rate is not a result of dissolved sugars.
I agree that varying utilization rate is not the result of dissolved sugars, but this does not mean that the Tinseth formula, or others, are wrong. Proteins/hot break may be the real reason, but the formulas were derived empirically and may likely are still be valid.

Really good info, by the way - thanks.

(I wonder if some of these hop utilization posts should be transferred to a new thread since it is going away from the original intent. I'll look through the forum instructions to see how to do it.)
 

peterj

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I agree that varying utilization rate is not the result of dissolved sugars, but this does not mean that the Tinseth formula, or others, are wrong. Proteins/hot break may be the real reason, but the formulas were derived empirically and may likely are still be valid.

Really good info, by the way - thanks.

(I wonder if some of these hop utilization posts should be transferred to a new thread since it is going away from the original intent. I'll look through the forum instructions to see how to do it.)
Yeah, I definitely agree that the formulas are still very useful and they usually end up being pretty close to each other as far as IBU predictions. They're pretty reliable when it comes to all grain full boil brewing. It's just when you get into late extract additions and gravity gained from malt extract and other sugars that it gets a little iffy. Gravity points from commercial malt extract will effect hop utilization less than gravity from freshly mashed grain. And simple sugars will effect it even less and probably not at all. But the formulas don't take the source of the sugars into account.

I think if you are consistent with which formula you use and with how you brew, you can get an accurate idea of how the predicted IBU number relates to the actual bitterness in the final beer on your system. And for the most part you'll be pretty much in the ballpark when translating someone else's recipe into your system.

Anyway, I also agree that this has gotten WAY off topic! Sorry OP!
 

Pappers_

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Interesting discussion, but lets get back on topic. If you want to discuss gravity and its impact on hop utilization, please start a new thread.
 

Pappers_

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The Saison recipe I'm using (Raison d'Saison from Brewing Classic Styles) calls for 1 lb of cane sugar, but doesn't say when. Part of me says add at the beginning of the 90 min boil (or at least before the 60 min hop addition) so that my boil is at the desired full-boil gravity. But the other part of me says that boiling a pound of sugar that long is going to serious alter the color of the beer.

Should I wait until the very end?
I brew a Belgian Golden Strong http://www.singingboysbrewing.com/Cherub-Nectar-Belgian-Golden-Strong.html that uses 2.5 pounds of sugar in the recipe. I add the sugar towards the end of the boil, with 5 or 10 minutes left. The beer doesn't suck and won a gold medal in its category and a bronze medal in the best of show at a competition last summer.

So, from my experience, I would say add the sugar towards the end of the boil.
 
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