Can you help me fix this IPA recipe?

[benoj]

Hey,

So recently i brewed what I was intending to be an old school clear west-coast IPA with high drinkability. What came out is a sort of - boring-ish, slightly too bitter on the finish un-refreshing beer type drink.

On the brew I had an issue with a broken pump in my Grainfather and so I couldn't cool it - and instead let it chill covered up for a few hours and then put in my fermenter at 55c and moved to my fermentation chamber to cool to pitch temps. I pitched around 16 hours later.

In terms of taste - it's not offensive. You can just about pick up some Simcoe but nothing else interesting at all. The malt is sort of present in a slightly flabby caramel way - can't be sure if it's the caramel malt vs oxidisation. In terms of aroma its muted - and nothing of interest.

I also fined with gelatine but the brew has remained slightly hazy... and it's fairly dark looking which is probably made worse by the haze.

I'm trying to work out if the recipe is bad or the brew was oxidised by the long chill process?

Here is the recipe that I used:

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.062
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU (Tinseth): 59
Colour: 20 EBC
Mash
Temperature — 65 °C — 60 min
Mash Out — 75 °C — 10 min
Malts (5.842 kg)
2.6 kg/5.7lbs (44.5%) — Simpsons Pale Ale Golden Promise — Grain — 5.5 EBC
2.321 kg/5.12lbs(39.7%) — Crisp Finest Maris Otter® Ale Malt — Grain — 5.5 EBC
610 g/1.3lbs (10.5%) — Crisp Dextrin Malt — Grain — 2 EBC
310 g/7oz (5.3%) — Simpsons Crystal Medium — Grain — 175 EBC
Hops (186.6 g)
16.6 g (23 IBU) — Magnum 12.8% — Boil — 60 min
10 g (4 IBU) — Fuggle 5% — Boil — 30 min
40 g (10 IBU) — Citra 14% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand
40 g (12 IBU) — Columbus (Tomahawk) 16% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand
10 g (3 IBU) — Simcoe 13.5% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand
40 g — Simcoe 13% — Dry Hop — 5 days
30 g — Citra 12% — Dry Hop — 5 days
Hopstand at 80 °C

Any advice on this would be massively appreciated - as I have a keg of extremely boring beer type drink now...

Ben

 

[VikeMan]

I don't think in metric natively, but the things that jump out at me at first glance are the dextrin and medium crystal. I'd eliminate the former, and reduce the latter (and/or use a lighter version of the latter).

 

[D.B.Moody]

I'll start by saying that I'm an extract brewer, so I won't be offended if you don't think my opinion counts.
I agree with @VikeMan and I also wonder why you had to have two base malts. It seems to be a needless complication, and Maris Otter is not west coast.
I feel the same about so many different hops. Couldn't you get by on two or three varieties? For instance, what was the 10g of Fuggles supposed to bring to this? I'd up the boil hops, cut down on the aroma (hop stand) hops and dry hops.
Also, you may be bummed by pump problem possibly ruining you brew. Maybe next week it'll taste better.

 

[benoj]

I don't think in metric natively, but the things that jump out at me at first glance are the dextrin and medium crystal. I'd eliminate the former, and reduce the latter (and/or use a lighter version of the latter).

I've updated to lbs also.

Yeah - I think I'd agree there - definitely not happy with the colour and the body is a bit thick.

Do you think this could be having an impact on the hop character?

 

[VikeMan]

Do you think this could be having an impact on the hop character?

Yes, it can definitely affect the balance and distract from hop aroma/flavor.

 

[benoj]

I'll start by saying that I'm an extract brewer, so I won't be offended if you don't think my opinion counts.
I agree with @VikeMan and I also wonder why you had to have two base malts. It seems to be a needless complication, and Maris Otter is not west coast.

I'm in the UK so we have a lot of it going fairly cheaply. I didn't have enough GP so topped up with MO - however it is the light coloured MO (similar color to pilsner malt) so thought that might be OK in this instance.

For instance, what was the 10g of Fuggles supposed to bring to this? I'd up the boil hops, cut down on the aroma (hop stand) hops and dry hops.

This was a quick test - I head on Brulosophy Marshal saying something around always adding a earthy hop in the midboil to bring some more character. For me this didnt work in haha

I feel the same about so many different hops. Couldn't you get by on two or three varieties?

The hop schedule was lifted from a Scott Janish recipe - but doesn't seem to have come through well for me. Assuming this is a combination of the possible oxidation from the slow chill or doesn't work well with my malt bill or some combination of both.

I think i might follow the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule for my next one on the hop front!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

On the brew I had an issue with a broken pump in my Grainfather and so I couldn't cool it

...

I'm trying to work out if the recipe is bad or the brew was oxidised by the long chill process?

Don't overlook equipment failure as yet another cause of a undesired outcome.

Find a couple of clone recipes for classic west coast IPAs. Compare your recipe to theirs and decide if your recipe was "close enough" to get good results.

 

[benoj]

@VikeMan I think you could be right RE dextrin...

From the simpsons website:

Usage:
Up to 5% to Improve Mouthfeel and Foam Stability in any Beer 10–20% in Dark Mild and Sweet Stout
Description:
A handy little tool to keep up your sleeve, Dextrin Malt can be used sparingly to add body, mouthfeel and foam stability to any beer. Particularly useful in very light, hop forward IPAs to balance bitterness, it’s great in lower attenuated sweet beers, such as Mild and Sweet Stout.

They even say _sparingly_ -I'm at 10.5% so suggested for Sweet Stout / Dark mild...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

and instead let it chill covered up for a few hours

I feel like this may have had a significant impact on reducing hop flavors and boosting the bitterness. You have a good amount of "hopstand" hops so I would expect extracting more bitterness from those hops (though it would depend on how hot the wort was).

It is a bit of a malty looking grain bill, but seems like it would make a decent beer. What yeast did you use?

I am curious about "Crisp Dextrin Malt". I am not sure that Briess Carapils actually adds anything to a beer. With limited data points (2 batches) Weyermann CaraFoam does seem to add a lot of body to a beer (it seems to be more of an under-modified high protein malt where Briess seems to be more of a light crystal).

 

[RealRayDizzle]

It looks like, as other have pointed out, that the recipe may be a bit complicated. Below is one of the "west coast" IPA grain/hop list I use.
Personally I like lighter colored IPAs that are easy drinking and have a lot of hop flavor, so this is based on my opinion and may very well be way off from the style guidelines.
I have always had trouble getting the hop flavor punched in as well as keeping it there for more than 2 weeks in the keg. Probably due to some oxidation as well as a good amount of laziness on my part, but I am happy with the result. hope it helps in some way.
OG 1.58
FG 1.009
5.5 gal,
6 SRM
130 IBU

Grains
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
2 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM)
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)

Hops
1.50 oz Magnum [12.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Boil 0.0 min

2.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool
1.00 oz Citra [12.30 %] - Dry hop

 

[bwible]

10% is very high for dextrine malt. Some people don’t like it at all. I use it. For Carapils, Breiss recommends up to 5%. I recall reading 3% somewhere to add a little extra body and head retention. I don’t think dextrine malt adds much in the way of color. I don’t see 7 oz of crystal malt as too much in what I’m assuming is a 5 gallon batch? So I don’t see where this should be too dark. Grain bill looks good except for high dextrine malt. I did an Irish red recently where I was supposed to use 1/2 lb flaked barley and I mindlessly dumped in the whole pound bag and had mashed in before I realized it. No real ill effects.

Magnum, Simcoe, Citra, and Columbus are all very high alpha hops. I don’t do hop stands, really no experience there. But I understand they do contribute some bitterness. I think that technique is mostly used by guys who make NEIPA and they don’t add any hops at all in the boil, just all hop stand. My understanding is also that the hop stand is responsible for haze. Thats why NEIPAs are hazy/cloudy. So that explains that.

I add my flavor/aroma hops late in the boil. You have no boil hops after 30 min, so most of your hops are just bitterness. I like to add hops with 5 min and then 1 min left in the boil. Then immediately remove from heat and cool.

Simcoe and Citra should taste pretty similar together. Much of the same qualities.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Personally I like lighter colored IPAs that are easy drinking and have a lot of hop flavor, so this is based on my opinion and may very well be way off from the style guidelines.

In the original post, OP was planning to brew a

old school clear west-coast IPA

Some ideas for example recipes:

Brewing Classic Styles.

Designing Great Beers

Either book is probably less than a batch of beer.

BJCP guidelines for 2008 & 2015. Use the commercial examples section to identify examples that might have clone recipes (occasionally at the brewery's web site):

Commercial Examples [2008]: Meantime India Pale Ale, Freeminer Trafalgar IPA, Fuller's IPA, Ridgeway Bad Elf, Summit India Pale Ale, Samuel Smith's India Ale, Hampshire Pride of Romsey IPA, Burton Bridge Empire IPA,Middle Ages ImPailed Ale, Goose Island IPA, Brooklyn East India Pale Ale

Commercial examples [2015]: Alpine Duet, Bell’s Two-Hearted Ale, Fat Heads Head Hunter IPA, Firestone Walker Union Jack, Lagunitas IPA, Russian River Blind Pig IPA, Stone IPA.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

OP: How has your track record been with making IPAs? I have made a lot of bad IPAs over the years. I always blamed the recipe and would move to another one the next time.

Back in 2019 I took several steps to revamp my brewing process. I am now making wonderful IPAs, though given the changes it is hard to pick out what had the most impact. While I incorporated steps to reduce cold side oxidation, moving away from transferring to a secondary was likely a huge change. As I dug into water chemistry, I learned that my water was rather low in Sulfate and an unadjusted IPA likely mashed at a pH around 6.0. I am not sure that fermentation temp control had a huge impact on the quality of standard Ales, but it did help with fermentation consistency and convenience. I have generally been pretty good with some other brewing aspects (sanitation, yeast health, etc.).

It might be worth looking closer at your process if you have struggled to make IPAs that you enjoy.

 

[bwible]

In the original post, OP was planning to brew a

Right, but then he did a 30 min hop stand on top of boil hops and made a bitter NEIPA without enough hops to make the flavor/aroma.

 

[eric19312]

I agree no need for the dextrin. 5% crystal/caramel is fine and if you didn't like the color drop it down to something lighter. I use about 6% C10 and then split the rest of the grain bill between pilsner and pale malt or domestic 2-row and color/body are good.

IPA clarity seem to me to be more a function of dry hop quantity than anything else. I'm using at least an ounce per gallon of dry hop these days and my IPAs are all hazier than traditional west coast IPAs used to be. I still like them to have plenty of boil based IBU for bittering and prefer them to ferment out pretty dry.

But when I first read your post I'd say the main issue here is not your recipe but your process. The hop stand hops need chilling to preserve aroma and flavor. In the end you over isomerized the hop stand hops, reducing flavor contribution and drove off most of your aromatics. And yes probably oxidised them too. Fix the chiller, swap that dextrin malt for more golden promise and brew it again. Am sure it will be night and day difference.

(but I'd also up the dry hops...)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Right, but then he did a 30 min hop stand on top of boil hops and made a bitter NEIPA without enough hops to make the flavor/aroma.

And then the equipment failed...

 

[bwible]

I agree no need for the dextrin. 5% crystal/caramel is fine and if you didn't like the color drop it down to something lighter. I use about 6% C10 and then split the rest of the grain bill between pilsner and pale malt or domestic 2-row and color/body are good.

IPA clarity seem to me to be more a function of dry hop quantity than anything else. I'm using at least an ounce per gallon of dry hop these days and my IPAs are all hazier than traditional west coast IPAs used to be. I still like them to have plenty of boil based IBU for bittering and prefer them to ferment out pretty dry.

But when I first read your post I'd say the main issue here is not your recipe but your process. The hop stand hops need chilling to preserve aroma and flavor. In the end you over isomerized the hop stand hops, reducing flavor contribution and drove off most of your aromatics. And yes probably oxidised them too. Fix the chiller, swap that dextrin malt for more golden promise and brew it again. Am sure it will be night and day difference.

(but I'd also up the dry hops...)

Drop the hop stand if you are trying to make “West Coast” IPA. Hop stands are for NEIPA and guys who do hop stands don’t use any boil hops. They use about 8 oz of hops, all hop stand

 

[eric19312]

@CascadesBrewer 's point is worth discussing further. Your recipe has no mention of water treatment. Water treatment is pretty important in IPA brewing. For a west coast IPA you are looking for (1) elimination of any chlorine/chloramine (2) sufficient calcium (3) mash pH around 5.4 (4) lots of sulfates and high sulfate to chloride ratio.

 

[eric19312]

Drop the hop stand if you are trying to make “West Coast” IPA. Hop stands are for NEIPA and guys who do hop stands don’t use any boil hops. They use about 8 oz of hops, all hop stand

I disagree. Hop stands are very traditional in west coast IPAs. Every classic recipe I can think of includes them.

 

[bwible]

I disagree. Hop stands are very traditional in west coast IPAs. Every classic recipe I can think of includes them.

We’ll agree to diagree then. You must like cloudy beer

 

[benoj]

OP: How has your track record been with making IPAs? I have made a lot of bad IPAs over the years. I always blamed the recipe and would move to another one the next time.

A mixed bunch - this is my 5th IPA - but my first westcoast clear. I've made one terrible NEIPA and 1 fantastic one (IMO) - the other two were drinkable.

Back in 2019 I took several steps to revamp my brewing process. I am now making wonderful IPAs, though given the changes it is hard to pick out what had the most impact. While I incorporated steps to reduce cold side oxidation, moving away from transferring to a secondary was likely a huge change. As I dug into water chemistry, I learned that my water was rather low in Sulfate and an unadjusted IPA likely mashed at a pH around 6.0. I am not sure that fermentation temp control had a huge impact on the quality of standard Ales, but it did help with fermentation consistency and convenience. I have generally been pretty good with some other brewing aspects (sanitation, yeast health, etc.).

It might be worth looking closer at your process if you have struggled to make IPAs that you enjoy.

I'm doing pressurised/sealed fermentation where possible and closed transfer to reduce oxidisation and have been adjusting my PH to 5.2 with lactic.

I've recently found a supplied for distilled water so this is my next step - I live in London so HARD water with a lot of chlorine - which is resulting in a little bit of a astringent flavour in the ends of some of my beers.

 

[benoj]

It is a bit of a malty looking grain bill, but seems like it would make a decent beer. What yeast did you use?

I used WLP090 for this one.

I am curious about "Crisp Dextrin Malt". I am not sure that Briess Carapils actually adds anything to a beer. With limited data points (2 batches) Weyermann CaraFoam does seem to add a lot of body to a beer (it seems to be more of an under-modified high protein malt where Briess seems to be more of a light crystal).

Yeah I'm honestly confused as to why I put this much in here - definitely taking this out / down for the next one. Also will look at lower crystal malt - this is ~C60 - might take it down a little to C40

 

[benoj]

But when I first read your post I'd say the main issue here is not your recipe but your process. The hop stand hops need chilling to preserve aroma and flavor. In the end you over isomerized the hop stand hops, reducing flavor contribution and drove off most of your aromatics. And yes probably oxidised them too. Fix the chiller, swap that dextrin malt for more golden promise and brew it again. Am sure it will be night and day difference.

I chilled the HS to 80c on this one - do you have a recommended temp?

I've recently (as a result of this brach) bought myself an immersion chiller so now im not reliant on pumps...

Regarding dry hops - I'm hoping for that character but I really wanted a clear beer for this particular batch. Hence the gelatine, however it didnt seem to have the desired outcome!

 

[eric19312]

We’ll agree to diagree then. You must like cloudy beer

I don't prefer cloudy beer and never adjust my process or ingredients to try to enhance haziness but am ok with accepting haze in my IPAs if flavor and aroma are on target. I think the NEIPA beers have done me a favor in that nobody seems to be surprised to see haze in an IPA these days. But haze alone doesn't make a beer a NEIPA and I aim for very different flavor profile than I would if I were making NEIPA. (60+ IBU, high sulfate, dry profile)

Just like not worrying about haze I also don't worry about clarity in my IPAs. I use a little whirlfloc at end of the boil to improve hot and cold break separation but this is to reduce trub in fermentor. I use no gelatin or other fining agents in the fermentor as don't see them being worth the risk of post fermentation oxygen exposure.

 

[eric19312]

I chilled the HS to 80c on this one - do you have a recommended temp?

I've recently (as a result of this brach) bought myself an immersion chiller so now im not reliant on pumps...

Regarding dry hops - I'm hoping for that character but I really wanted a clear beer for this particular batch. Hence the gelatine, however it didnt seem to have the desired outcome!

80C sounds fine for the hop stand. But isomerazation is still going on at that temperature. Your hop stand might have really been hours not 30 minutes and during that time you were losing flavor and aroma compounds.

You mentioned above you have high chlorine in your water. That needs to be addressed. Treat it with campden tablets when you use it. Even consider treating water used to make no rinse sanitizer solutions with campden or use distilled for that too. Any chlorine or chloramine is going to put off flavors in your beer and the better your beer gets the more they will stand out.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I have been avoiding adding hopstands to my IPAs and Pale Ales, mostly because they add 10 or 20 minutes to brew day on top of the hassle of dropping temps and manual stirring. Some recent brews, including adding a hopstand to a Pale Ale, make me think that I am not getting as much of those good hop flavors out of a flameout additions as I thought. There is a good chance I will start adding hopstands/whirlpool hop additions to more of my American IPAs and Pale Ales.

I don't find that hopstands/whirlpool additions by themselves make for a hazy beer. Maybe if using a yeast that supports biotransformation, but I have had several beers with hopstands that have dropped (mostly) clear using both Voss and Chico strains. I tend to get a lot more haze in beers from dry hop additions.

 

[madscientist451]

Hey,

So recently i brewed what I was intending to be an old school clear west-coast IPA with high drinkability. What came out is a sort of - boring-ish, slightly too bitter on the finish un-refreshing beer type drink.


Any advice on this would be massively appreciated - as I have a keg of extremely boring beer type drink now...

Ben

Experimenting is one thing, but the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented. The great thing about old school beer styles is that there has been lots of recipe testing and tweaking already done.
As already stated, your recipe looks like it has too much dextrin malt, the Fuggles hops seems out of place in a W. Coast IPA, I'd use a 4 hop combination at flameout and in the dry hop.

So I would start with an established recipe, brew smaller batches, like 2.3-3 gallons and then re-brew and make changes to suit your taste. The list of BJCP commercial examples (above) is a great place to start. This recipe for Blind pig was posted in 2013 and looks pretty solid, the brewer provides tasting notes:

https://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/05/blind-pig-clone-20.html

 

[benoj]

So I've taken a few points from this and brewed another APA this weekend - I'm calling it my Remnants IPA (I'm using up some grains/hops I have leftover) and hopefully it will turn out a bit nicer than the last one!

Malts (4.177 kg)
3.4 kg (75.1%) — Crisp Clear Choice Malt ® Extra Pale — Grain — 3.7 EBC
500 g (11%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 15 EBC
177 g (3.9%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3.2 EBC
100 g (2.2%) — Simpsons Crystal Dark — Grain — 270 EBC

Other (350 g)
350 g (7.7%) — Candi Sugar, Clear — Sugar — 1 EBC

Hops (131.4 g)
8.2 g (16 IBU) — Citra 13.6% — Boil — 60 min
16.5 g (25 IBU) — Citra 13.6% — Boil — 30 min
10.7 g (10 IBU) — Citra 13.9% — Boil — 10 min
10 g (3 IBU) — Citra 13.9% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
50 g — Citra 14.9% — Dry Hop — day 2
36 g — Vic Secret 19.6% — Dry Hop — day 2

Hopstand at 80 °C

 

[bwible]

Candi sugar has no place in an IPA/IPA. It lends a unique flavor that is appropriate for Belgian beers. If you want to use sugar to boost gravity and thin the beer, just use corn sugar, like you use for bottle priming. It’s much cheaper and more neutral.

 

[VikeMan]

350 g (7.7%) — Candi Sugar, Clear — Sugar — 1 EBC

Candi sugar has no place in an IPA/IPA. It lends a unique flavor that is appropriate for Belgian beers.

I took the recipe to mean the clear candy rock sugar that comes in the dusty bags that hang on hooks for years at the LHBS. That stuff is just overpriced sugar, with no real flavor of its own. Darker rocks do add flavor. As does Candi Syrup (like the stuff from Candi Syrup Inc.), at least the darker versions. Nor so sure about the "1 SRM" vesion, which IMO is really just an ABV booster/body lightener.

100 g (2.2%) — Simpsons Crystal Dark — Grain — 270 EBC

@benoj you were concerned about the dark color of your first batch. Why the dark crystal in this one? I see you cut back the amount of crystal malt, but you are also using a darker one this time. Also, you added Munich, which adds color. You also seemed concerned about haze, but you're adding flaked wheat, which will probably make more haze.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm calling it my Remnants IPA (I'm using up some grains/hops I have leftover) and hopefully it will turn out a bit nicer than the last one!

Sometimes one needs to either use the remnants (and declare success without considering better flavor) or build a good recipe. Apparently, many people get both (aka happy accidents).

 

[benoj]

Candi sugar has no place in an IPA/IPA. It lends a unique flavor that is appropriate for Belgian beers. If you want to use sugar to boost gravity and thin the beer, just use corn sugar, like you use for bottle priming. It’s much cheaper and more neutral.

Nor so sure about the "1 SRM" vesion, which IMO is really just an ABV booster/body lightener.

Yep definitely - It's basically glorified sugar - just trying to dry up the beer here and also get rid of this sugar I overpaid for

you were concerned about the dark color of your first batch. Why the dark crystal in this one?

This was to try and determine whether is was indeed my process failure (pump failure overnight chill - oxidation) or simply I don't like the colour. The colour is on the lower end "for style" so I have a feeling it _must_ be the process failure. Both of these beers have the same predicted colour in brewfather.

The image on the right is the gravity reading (left out overnight - so will be oxidised too) and the left if my old batch out of keggerator - so there is definitely some color difference (hard to photograph) but the unfermented batch so far is much lighter (still is cloudy of course)

You also seemed concerned about haze, but you're adding flaked wheat, which will probably make more haze.

Put this in for head retention - my understanding is <5% shouldn't affect haze - will be cold crashing and fining with gelatin so hopefully we will see!

 

[VikeMan]

my understanding is <5% shouldn't affect haze

Where did you hear that? I haven't seen (or experienced) that rule of thumb, but who knows.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Are you doing all that dry hopping on the day after the brewing? Isn't that during very active fermentation?
I gather the pump worked and you won't have accidentally extracted extra bitterness from the hop stand. I wish you success.

 

[benoj]

Where did you hear that? I haven't seen (or experienced) that rule of thumb, but who knows.

Hmm.. just tried to find my source - fairly sure I read it in Building better beer or Radical Brewing - Had a quick google and there is a reference in BYO but to malted wheat.

https://byo.com/article/brewing-wit...ercentages (5 to,malt should be well modified.

 

[benoj]

Are you doing all that dry hopping on the day after the brewing? Isn't that during very active fermentation?
I gather the pump worked and you won't have accidentally extracted extra bitterness from the hop stand. I wish you success.

I'm a software engineer - so I tend to think in zero indexes - so probably around day 3. I want to DH while there is some active fermentation just to avoid oxidation issues.

I switched out some of my equipment and now I use gravity and an immersion chiller

 

[WesBrew]

I just made one at 89ibu That is smooth and delish. Cold crash and a few days in the keg will do wonders. I’d say too much Dex and need and touch of roast to get a nice deep copper color.

 

[Redhouse Brewing]

We’ll agree to diagree then. You must like cloudy beer

it doesn’t have to be cloudy just because you do a hop stand. And no hop stands are not just for NEIPA. That was your opinion not a fact. I’ve done many WCIPA all with hop stands that were super clear. In fact here’s a perfect example

 

[benoj]

I just made one at 89ibu That is smooth and delish. Cold crash and a few days in the keg will do wonders. I’d say too much Dex and need and touch of roast to get a nice deep copper color.

Interesting - would have thought 89 would be super bitter - I'm still a bit afraid to go beyond the "Style guides" that brewfather shows - perhaps I need to be more adventurous

 

[WesBrew]

Interesting - would have thought 89 would be super bitter - I'm still a bit afraid to go beyond the "Style guides" that brewfather shows - perhaps I need to be more adventurous

It was at first, but after a week in the keg it smoothed out and the citrus flavors were more noticable.