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Can you Brew It recipe for Fuller's ESB

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EricCSU

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This was deemed "not cloned."

All recipes are (unless otherwise specified): 6 gallons post-boil, 70% efficiency, Morey for color, 15% evaporation, 7.27 gallons preboil, Rager IBU, and most hops are in grams not ounces. Most, if not all recipes are primary only (no secondary).

If you brew this, please reply with your results for discussion.

OG 1060
SRM 10.4
34.7 IBU

90 minute boil

5.83kg Marris Otter
310g British Crystal Malt*

19g Target 11%AA at 60min
15g Challenger 7.5%AA at 3min
15g Northdown 8.5%AA at 3min
3g Goldings 4.75%AA at 3min
21g Goldings dry hop

WLP002

Water is burtonized with gypsum.

The fermentation schedule given by the brewer was quite convoluted, but Jamil recommended to ferment at 17C, raise to 20C over the course of fermentation.

Mash at 148F for 60min

*Jamil clarified that he recommended Simpson's British Dark Crystal which is available from Northern Brewer.

Discussion notes:
Recommended changes include: use a no sparge mash, use the Simpson's Dark Crystal, and ferment at 17C to 20C.
 

poe

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...but there seems to be too litle bittering hop. If you want to reach the IBU you need 35,3g of target (according to Brew Smith).

In the rebrew (wich was deemed: Cloned) they only refer to the "original recipe". So I will re-listen the first show to figure it out.

/Preben
 
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EricCSU

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I get 33.3 IBU when I plugged it into beersmith. Are you using the parameters listed at the beginning of the recipe?

Eric
 

poe

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I thought so - but if you can get the numbers right, and I can't, it seems I haven't.
I'm not able to attach my recipe, but if you would mail me yours I'd be gratefull.

rgds

Preben

preben_h(at)hotmail.com
 

poe

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It helped, but I'm still about 10 IBU's short of your 33,3.

/Preben
 
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EricCSU

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For the successful rebrew, Chad used a partigyle brew of 12 gallons of the above recipe and used the first runnings for the ESB. He ran off 5.5 gallons, diluted to the appropriate amount to get the correct SG to get 6 gallons at a 1060 OG. He did not change the hop schedule. He used the second runnings for London Pride.
 

BeernuT100

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That above recipe isn't the recipe he used to brew the first beer. Where did you get it?

The recipe that he brewed first had none of those hops and included 005 instead of 002 yeast. The 2nd try he stayed to the recipe that was given to him by the Fullers brewer. I don't know if they ever went over the recipe of the 2nd try.

-bn
 

jeffjm

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I finally got around to brewing this, eight months after the successful re-brew aired. It definitely makes for a long brew day!

To start off, I created a recipe in beersmith that would produce enough wort for a double-size batch at an OG of 1054 (figuring that's what I'd get if I blended equal amounts of the 1060 ESB and the 1048 London Pride). I adjusted the original grain bill for my own batch size, efficiency, and boiloff rate. Usually I want about 6.75 gallons into my boil, and I end up with about 5.5 gallons or a little less in the carboy after evaporation and trub left in the kettle. My malt bill was 20 pounds of Maris Otter and 1 pound, 1 ounce of the British crystal 80.

I doubt if it matters much, but I noticed on listening again that Fuller's targets an evaporation rate of 7-8%, while mine is usually somewhere around 12%.

Then I created two other recipes in beersmith, with proportionate amounts of the Maris Otter and crystal malt relative to the first recipe, one to give me the 1060 of the ESB and one for the 1048 of the London Pride. Those two recipes gave me the pre-boil gravities I should target. Based on the podcasts and the reading I've done on partigyles (Randy Mosher has an article on the net about them, and there's also Tom's Partigyle Cipherin' sheet), I knew I was going to have to do some blending to get my pre-boil gravities.

The only real problem I encountered was at mash-in. Both beersmith and the calculator at rackers.org told me I would have about half a gallon of space left in my 10G mash tun with a thickness of 1.5 quarts/pound, but I wound up not quite being able to fit all eight gallons or so of strike water in the tun. (Fortunately I do things backwards from most people and add grain first, then stir in water). I figure I got about seven gallons in, or maybe a bit more. Regardless, I still hit my mash temp of 149. The only downside was that I needed to sparge a bit more than I had planned.

The water in the recipe is described as 'Burtonized', which is nice and vague. John Palmer's spreadsheet suggested that about a gram or so of gypsum would be appropriate for my water, so in it went. In the interview, the Fuller's person said they treat their water in varying ways until they get the profile they want, but didn't give any specifics. My mash pH was 5.3 all the way through the first half of the runnings, and wound up at about 5.8 when I got to the end.

My hope was to get almost all of the ESB runnings before sparging. Even if I had gotten that last gallon into the tun, I would have had to sparge, because the grains absorbed more water than expected.

I did have a bit of an equipment snag - the only vessels I have capable of holding 6.75 gallons are my kettle and mash tun. I had to run the later runnings off into a bucket and a smaller pot to hold all the liquid I needed.

After the initial run-off of 6.75 gallons, I had a 1068 wort, so I blended with the later runnings until I got down to my pre-boil gravity. I boiled the ESB wort and hopped as the recipe indicated. I was a little concerned about hopping, because beersmith indicated that the IBUs were a little low. However, the interview with the guy from Fuller's didn't actually give IBUs, and if I switched my options from Tinseth to Rager they looked a lot better. I wound up just adjusting quantities for the alphas in the hops I had bought online and not worrying about IBUs at all.

OG out of the kettle for the ESB was 1061. I chilled as far as is easy in St. Louis in July and put the carboy in the fermentation fridge to come down the rest of the way to the 64F pitching temp.

When I combined the later runnings from my multiple small vessels in the brew kettle, my pre-boil gravity was about six points low. I'd also managed to run off more than my ideal 6.75 gallons. I'd talked about partigyles with someone from the LHBS recently, and he said it would be good to be prepared to be low on the second beer. I made up the difference with DME, boiled, and hopped as indicated, except I added a couple more grams of bittering hops, since I had a slightly larger amount of wort than normal.

OG out of the kettle for the London Pride was 1047. Once again, I chilled as far as easy and let the fridge make up the difference.

When both worts hit 64F, I pitched a one-liter starter of 1968 harvested on Monday from a brown ale into each. I plan on following the unusual fermentation schedule as described on the show.

One concern I'd had before today was color. I didn't get a good sense from the pictures Beersmith generated that the SRM from either beer was going to be right. However, the colors of each wort match my recollection of the real thing perfectly, as the first runnings are substantially darker than the later runnings used for the London Pride.

If I were to do this again, I'd want to be able to do two boils at once. There's a long time spent running off wort and blending before the ESB gets to the burner, and the London Pride sat even longer. Both had an opportunity to cool quite a bit compared to a non-partigyle wort, so they took longer to come to a boil. Overall, it was about a ten-hour brew day.

There's a pub not far from me that serves both ESB and London Pride on cask. I am looking forward to going there and having a pint of each, and then comparing against mine when I get home - I doubt they're liberal enough to let me bring mine in for a triangle test. :mug:
 

zadams14

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Great rundown jeffjm. I'm thinking about taking a crack at this myself. How was the final result? Would you still advise basing your malt calculations on a double-batch @ 1054 or would you nudge that OG up having gone through it?
 

jeffjm

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I still haven't gotten to the pub to try the real thing. Unfortunately fermentation temps got away from me due to many 100-degree-plus days, and I had a bit of diacetyl, which is finally starting to get consumed by the yeast. That's more in the ESB than the London Pride. However, both are perfectly drinkable by now.
 

jeffjm

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And to answer the original question, I would not change my gravity calcs at all.
 

a_potter

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I brewed the same recipes from CYBI. I followed the Fullers fermentation regimen almost exactly due to the rebrew show going on about how important it was. I also made my starter size based on Mr. Malty calcs. I'm a little bummed that the Pride is very cidery at this point. Its only been kegged for a week so no need for me to panic yet but its REALLY cidery.
 

rockfish42

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How would one no sparge mash this recipe as recommended?
AFAIK No sparging just requires adjusting for the loss in efficiency. the recipe as written is for 70% you can guess that the efficiency is going to drop by 10-20% based on your setup.
 

hunmojo

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Hello i would like to try this clone based on the second CLONED version. but i didnt understand weather they added sugar or anything to carbonate this beer.

I would be bottling or mini party kegs, but not sure if I need to add sugar at any point or is there enough left after fermentation since they say cut it off at 1//4 gravity....... can anyone send me some feed back.
 

gbx

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I so want to brew this but I haven't been able to round up the hops. I'm pretty sure they force carbed the beer in kegs.

and notes/suggestions on partigyling: When you add the 2 recipe's together, assume you will get at least 5% worse efficiency than normal. If you just collect 1st runnings and start boiling, your second runnings will likely come in very low. Have at least 2 extra buckets handy to collect the runnings in and blend to get your expected OG's for both beers BEFORE you start boiling. If running out all the wort before starting is going to take too long, the proper way to do this is to boil the runnings first and then blend worts together in the fermenters. If you listen to the original episode this is what the brewer described but was missed by Jamil. The brewer describes how to split up the hops between gyles. This could also be why the IBU numbers aren't working out - the second runnings would probably be around 1.020 and have much higher utilization.
 

flabyboy

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Just took a stab at this. I used 11 lbs of Fawcetts Optic malt with 11 oz of Simpsons dark crystal. I also added 0.6 oz of carafa III during mashout to add a bit more color. I mashed at 150 for 75 mins. Hops: 0.65 oz target for bittering at 60 min, 0.2 Kent Goldings, 0.6 challenger, and 0.6 northdown all went in with 5 mins left in boil. I did about a 10 min whirlpool to get the most of those late addition hops.

1.056 OG
11.6 SRM
34 IBU

fermented at 67 degrees and let it get all the way up to 72-74 after 3 days of vigorous fermentation at 67. The Krausen had dropped so I warmed it up for diacetyl rest. Took a sample this morning out of fermenter and it taste awesome already. Plan on putting 0.5 kent goldings in to dry hop for a week. Cold crash and keg
 

FLJohnson

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The first problem I see with the specifications described by the Fuller's brewer for this beer is the discrepancy between the quoted ABV and the beginning and ending gravities. The brewer described the beer as 5.9% alcohol by volume, but an original gravity of "59.8" and a final gravity of "ten eleven" (translated to 1.0598 and 1.011, respectively) would produce a beer of 6.5% alcohol by volume by my calculations.

Also I calculate the color of this beer would be closer to 14-15 EBC, in contrast to the 32 EBC reported by the brewer. I suppose the beer may darken during the process that could account for the difference between the calculation and the actual, final color, but that would mean that the formula is pretty much worthless.

Would someone please point out if my calculations are off, or am I missing something?
 

gbx

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If you listen to interviews with british brewers, they always downplay any colour adjustments and use of american hops. In the fuller's interview, he gives the recipe as 95% pale, 5% crystal and then some chocolate malt for colour. I don't really understand why it was omitted in the CYBI recipe, its not like it was an adjustment using the typical caramel colourant.
 

FLJohnson

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Many thanks, gbx! Somehow I missed the chocolate addition entirely. I'll go back and listen again.

Upate: I just listened to the interview again. There was no mention of an addition of chocolate malt for color. Undoubtedly, that is why it was not included in the CYBI recipe. However, I don't really doubt what gbx says. It is the only way I can reconcile the color discrepancy.

Any thoughts on the ABV discrepancy?
 

gbx

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Many thanks, gbx! Somehow I missed the chocolate addition entirely. I'll go back and listen again.

Upate: I just listened to the interview again. There was no mention of an addition of chocolate malt for color. Undoubtedly, that is why it was not included in the CYBI recipe. However, I don't really doubt what gbx says. It is the only way I can reconcile the color discrepancy.

Any thoughts on the ABV discrepancy?
I just relistened, too. Its actually in the London Pride episode at 17:45. The interviewer said the colour adjustment was mentioned off the record.
 

14thstreet

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It's quite possible that the discrepancy lies with reporting alcohol by weight instead (which would be lower), or how they calculate ABV. But yes, that's quite a difference.

As for the chocolate malt, keep in mind that Fullers probably uses different suppliers for base malt which may then affect overall color. The dark malt addition is probably done to correct for such variations without changing the flavor profile much and may or may not be used on every batch. They must either keep to their standards or the standards of those who purchase and consume their product. We all drink with our eyes!
 

FarmerTed

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I think you're confusing srm with ebc: one of them is approximately 2x larger than the other. If they use chocolate malt or some caramel coloring to get a consistent color, it's probably a tiny amount that won't affect the flavor. I brewed the London Pride recipe a year+ ago, and it looked exactly like the real thing in a side by side (tasted great as well).
 

menisale

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I'm looking to brew this next Thursday. Any updates on your successes and failures?
 

huckbof

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For the successful rebrew, Chad used a partigyle brew of 12 gallons of the above recipe and used the first runnings for the ESB. He ran off 5.5 gallons, diluted to the appropriate amount to get the correct SG to get 6 gallons at a 1060 OG. He did not change the hop schedule. He used the second runnings for London Pride.
Yes, but he didn't double the recipe in post1 from 13.53lbs to 27.06 lbs grain and the numbers he gave indicate that he didn't get 70% efficiency.

In the podcast he said he mashed 8 gals at 1.3 qts/lb, so he only used (32/1.3)=24.62 lbs grain, which is 9% less than doubling. He collected 5.5 gal first runnings at 1063 and 7 gals of sparge at 1038, for a total of 12.5 gals that would average 1049 (5.5*63+7*38)/12.5. Mash efficiency calculates to 65.9%.

We owe a debt of thanks to jeffjm for his observations and insights on the ESB/LP partigyle

My malt bill was 20 pounds of Maris Otter and 1 pound, 1 ounce of the British crystal 80
Jeffjm used 21.1 lbs grain and needed to add DME to hit the OG for the London Pride, even though he seemed to have over 80% efficiency.

...my pre-boil gravity was about six points low...I made up the difference with DME
Rather than add DME I am going to use Chad's grain amounts and then (like Chad), dilute with water to hit the pre-boil SGs and then just go with the hop amounts in post1 in both kettles.

The only real problem I encountered was at mash-in. Both beersmith and the calculator at rackers.org told me I would have about half a gallon of space left in my 10G mash tun with a thickness of 1.5 quarts/pound, but I wound up not quite being able to fit all eight gallons or so of strike water in the tun.
On-line calculator says Chad's mash volume calculates to 9.97 gals. So, like jeffjm, I will definitely be adding water to the grain on this one. Jeff only had 21.1 lbs grain at 1.5 qts/lb calculating to 9.6 gals and it did not fit in a 10 gal MLT.

After we do this I will post some data for the partigyle, but I just wanted to inform people doing the partigyle that doubling the recipe in post 1 will likely give you more wort than you need and will not fit in a 10 gal mash tun.

jeffjm, how did your brews turn out?
 

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having quaffed many a pint of "real ale" in fullers tied houses in my trips to london, it is my favorite english ale and i have tried to replicate it over the years. a few things come to mind for me.

1 - natural carbonation is a must. something around 2.1 volumes of co2 seems about right. i use corn sugar in the corny with a 5 psi blanket to seal the lid. after that dissipates i run a very low charge the rest of the keg.

2 - about 5.2 abv. OG 1050, FG 1010 is what i aim for

3 - 90% MO, 5% carapils, 5% 60l crystal and a touch of chocolate for color. 2 oz in 5 gallons for me. i steep the crystal and chocolate in a separate tea and add that to the boil.

4 - EKG for about 32 IBU. i usually do 60 and 5 minute adds but the last batch i did a combo of ekg fwh and 20 min instead of the 60 min and i just tried it at 5 days and it seems it may be even better. a bit more mellow.

5 - 1098 or even 1056 yeast. i have used both and don't see a lot of difference. 3 week primary and straight to keg

my version at 2 weeks is as close to fullers esb as i have ever had and i usually drink most of it around 52 degrees. it dries out with age though but for the first month, its perfect. i am not overly careful about getting some particulates into the keg either and i think this somewhat simulates sitting on the lees that a real ale does. it makes for a bit of a cloudy pour for a few pints but adds character. in my experience, fullers esb is a delicate balance of malt and ekg character with a very smooth mouth feel. the hops are present in the aroma but not dominate. same with the flavor. i get ekg in the front with a mellow bitterness in the back tamed somewhat by a subtle caramel note.
 

huckbof

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my version at 2 weeks is as close to fullers esb as i have ever had and i usually drink most of it around 52 degrees. it dries out with age though but for the first month, its perfect. i am not overly careful about getting some particulates into the keg either and i think this somewhat simulates sitting on the lees that a real ale does. it makes for a bit of a cloudy pour for a few pints but adds character. in my experience, fullers esb is a delicate balance of malt and ekg character with a very smooth mouth feel. the hops are present in the aroma but not dominate. same with the flavor. i get ekg in the front with a mellow bitterness in the back tamed somewhat by a subtle caramel note.
have you ever tried the partigyle?

how much gypsum do you use in how much water?
 

blackbeer

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i did a partygyle for the first time last weekend. however, i did not get the gravity on the 2nd runnings that i needed for an esb and did not have enough ekg so i ended up with a lite ale with ekg and magnums. its still perking.

as for the water, i am blessed with good well water that makes english ales very nicely but i have never had it tested to see what is in it.
 

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I am very intrigued with the whole CYBI podcasts on the Fullers ESB/London Pride. I just listened to both podcasts & then stumbled upon this particular thread. It amazes me that this thread was started about 5 years ago, and that it is still active ! I've never done a party-gyle mash, and the fermentation temperature regimen per both Fullers & Chad's 2nd attempt seems very challenging to me.

Hey Blackbeer, you seem pretty experienced with British Ales. I'd like to brew a No-Sparge/BIAB ESB & also do a simple fermentation at about 68* F. I'd go 93% Maris Otter, then add British Crystal & a touch of both British pale chocolate & carapils/dextrine. I don't need to make an exact clone of Fullers ESB - but I'd like to have a respectable premium english style bitter.

I'd like to go 100% EKG hops & definitely use a British Ale Yeast. Jamil highly recommends Wyeast Yorkshire Ale Yeast if available - otherwise I'll probably go wlp 002-005 or 007 - not sure yet.

Any thought and/or suggestions ?

Thanks in advance ! :mug:
 

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we made the Fuller partigyle rebrew yesterday using Crisp 70 and Crisp M.O. and the first runnings were 1090 vs Chad's 1063 in the CYBI rebrew...hmmmmmmmm?

we targeted a mash of 8 gals with 3t gypsum and 1.3 qts/lb grain, we added water on top of the grain and it all fit in the 10 gal MLT except the last quart.

we hit all of the targets and ended up with 1 gallon of 50 pt wort leftover for the freezer

b/c our first runnings were so high @ 1090 we could not use it all in the ESB, otherwise the gravity would have been too high for our target pre-boil volume.

The sparge SG was low 1039 vs 1041 target so we used a small amount of first runnings to boost the gravity to hit the preboil SG and volume targets

we ended up with 81% overall mash efficiency when we averaged the first runnings and sparge

we skimmed all hot break, about 1 qt total from both batches and ended up with 5.5 gals in each carboy

we used IM and adjusted all hop additions for %AA differences

after cooling there was no cold or hot break trub in either brew, only 2.5 qts of hop trub that we used for OG measurements and then discarded.

we pitched 6 million WLP002 cells per mL at 63F in each fermentor and by morning (12-15 hrs later) there were thick krausens on both beers
 

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OK - this is my next brew. Can you help with my water - I see you added Gypsum to your water; here is my h2O profile:
Sodium, Na 8
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 12
Magnesium, Mg 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 34
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.3 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 8
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 29
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 24

WHat additions to my water should I make to brew this ESB?
Stewart
 

ShiftOne

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Brewed this today using a Robobrew.

Changes:
I added 5g Northdown and 5g of Goldings @ 25 minutes.
Using Safale S04 yeast (rehydrated for ~2 hours, added chilled wort about 45 minutes before pitching)

I ended up with ~23L post boil and had an OG of 1066! (Did I get some crazy efficiency or did the shop stuff up the grain bill...)

Will let you know how it goes.
 
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