Can Vienna be steeped?

[IowaStateFan]

Okay, I'm a little confused. I've read that some specialty grains must be mashed. Grains like Vienna and Munich. Exactly what does this mean? I'm not looking for an explanation of the difference between mashing and steeping, unless there is some magic that happens to those grains in the mash. What I want to know is what's different about those grains that must be mashed vs. those that can be steeped. If I steep Vienna what happens? I've seen extract recipes that call for steeping Munich, yet it is one of the grains that must be mashed. I'm trying to convert one of my AG recipes that uses Vienna and Victory into an extract recipe. Someone please enlighten me.

Thanks.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

I dont see why- I would steep them cant think of an explination why not

 

[Poindexter]

You may steep Vienna. You will get more sugar out of it if you mash it.

This is why I constantly encourage people in the n00b section to try to steep at mash temperatures.

EDIT: Your beer will be more better sooner if you learn to steep your steeping grains at mash temperatures. Like 145-155° F. Just keep shooting at it. When you start hitting it regular, try a PM recipe.

 

[Kai]

Wait - doesn't Vienna have starches that need diastatic conversion to fermentable sugars?
IOW, won't it give starch haze if it's not mashed? Or at least steeped awesomely enough that it converts? I imagine it wouldn't affect the taste, but it would affect appearance.

I think there are Vienna extracts available, aren't there? That might be a good bet, to use them for the same % of the gravity.

EDIT: I was thinking of Munich extracts. Oops.

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

You will get a bit of flavor out of steeping them but not much sugar extraction. Even at 145F to 155F you will get limited sugar by steeping instead of mashing. In steeping, you are bringing your full boil volume of water up in temperature and maybe soaking a pound or two of grain. In mashing, you are soaking grains in a water/grain mixture that has a ratio of roughly 1.25 quarts per pound of grain. That thick mixture keeps the enzymes needed for starch conversion in close proximity so that they can do their work. In steeped grains, the mixture is too dilute to get full conversion, although you will get some.

Mashing - 1.25 qts / pound
Steeping (example of 6 gallons water preboil and 2 pounds of grain) - 12 qts / pound

 

[Poindexter]

You were right Kai. Looking at my 3rd ed Papazian, Vienna and Munich are kinda similar. For the Vienna, Charlie lists three varieties with diastatic power (Lintner)/ potential extract in points per pound gallon as:

USA 130L/35points
German 95L/37 points
English 50L/36 points

For comparison, American Crystal malt at 40, 60 and 80 Lovibond (color) come in at zero Lintner and 34 gravity points.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

I seriously have no idea what you guys are talking about

 

[IowaStateFan]

I seriously have no idea what you guys are talking about

The good news is I understand what they're talking about, but I still don't understand what's different about Vienna or Munich compared to the other specialty grains that can be steeped. I understand that mashing is about getting fermentables and steeping is just for flavor and color. So is all the flavor in the fermentables for these grains?

 

[FlyGuy]

Hey guys -- let me throw my 2 cents in here in case it helps to clarify things a bit.

Many specialty grains, like crystal or chocolate, have been kilned at a temperature that is high enough to transform the starch in the grains into sugars by caramelizing them.

Vienna and Munich are kilned at somewhat lower temperatures, so their starches are not all caramelized and are retained inside the grain. To convert them to sugars, they must be mashed to allow the diastatic enzymes in the grains to perform the conversion. If you steep these grains at temperatures that the enzymes will not tolerate (e.g., above 170 degrees or at very cool temperatures), little or no conversion will occur and starches may end up in your beer, potentially causing a haze.

Munich and Vienna are very similar in that they are malts that have been kilned at a moderately high temperature, giving them a toasty, bready character compared to a lower-kilned base malt. Vienna is kilned at a slightly lower temperature, so it is a bit lighter in color and flavour than Munich.

 

[Brewsmith]

Munich and Vienna malts have some enzymes in them and can convert themselves. By steeping them, you really are mashing. Just make sure you hold them around 153 for at least a half hour.

The only difference between steeping and mashing is the enzymes. The confusion comes because you can't see the difference with your eyeballs. Steeping just releases sugars and color out of grain. Mashing uses enzymes to break apart starches. They just both look the same on the stove top.

 

[CBBaron]

Munich, Vienna, and other base grains have a significant amount of starches and very little sugars contained in the kernel. They also have active enzymes. When mashing these enzymes convert the starches to sugars that make your sweet wort. When steeping the ratio of water to grain and temps do not allow for efficient use of the enzymes so most of the starches are left. These starches will be present in the wort an can cause haze and spoilage issues.
With crystal and roasted grains the heat from the toasting caramelizes the starch into different sugars that can be used to flavor the beer. These grains contain very few starches. Therefore these grains can be steeped without issues.

So you can steep Munich or Vienna but if you use much of these grains you will end up with a large amount of starches in your wort which causes problems.

http://howtobrew.com describes mashing and steeping as well as the other steps in brewing.
Craig

 

[RoaringBrewer]

The only difference between steeping and mashing is the enzymes. The confusion comes because you can't see the difference with your eyeballs. Steeping just releases sugars and color out of grain. Mashing uses enzymes to break apart starches. They just both look the same on the stove top.

Well, almost... As noted prior to mash effectively you need to use a mixture of .75-1.50qt per lb of grain, while steeping is much more diluted, watery, whatever you want to term it.

Also, as noted by someone above, some grains just do not have the diastatic power to convert themselves, so if you steep, or even mash them, alone not much is going to happen in the way of starch to sugar conversion. You'd need a basemalt in addition to that type of grain in order to convert anything.

FWIW, if you are just starting, following the steeping grain instructions for your first couple batches. However, partial mashing is a good way to increase the quality of beer you brew and isn't much harder than steeping at all. Just requires you hold a steady mash temp for 60 minutes as opposed to steeping (sometimes only done for 30 and sometimes just done from 0-170 degrees) and requires a different water to grain ratio. You can do it on the stovetop in a kettle, but it helps to have a cooler mash/lauter tun which can be built for cheap - see the DIY section.

 

[Chriso]

So if keeping the enzymes in close contact with each other is important, wouldn't it be best for the OP to steep their Vienna in a smaller amount of water (1.25 q/lb) at mash temps , and then add that liquor to the main kettle with the remainder (corrected amount = TotalWater -- MashWater) of the water and any other non-mash steeping grains?

I know 0 about PM or steep, that's why I'm trying to understand + error check what I'm learning.

 

[CBBaron]

So if keeping the enzymes in close contact with each other is important, wouldn't it be best for the OP to steep their Vienna in a smaller amount of water (1.25 q/lb) at mash temps , and then add that liquor to the main kettle with the remainder (corrected amount = TotalWater -- MashWater) of the water and any other non-mash steeping grains?

I know 0 about PM or steep, that's why I'm trying to understand + error check what I'm learning.

If you keep the temp to between 145F and 160F for 30min to an hour then you just described a partial mash. So yes you are correct the best solution for base grains or adjuncts is a partial mash.

Craig

 

[Got Trub?]

So if keeping the enzymes in close contact with each other is important, wouldn't it be best for the OP to steep their Vienna in a smaller amount of water (1.25 q/lb) at mash temps , and then add that liquor to the main kettle with the remainder (corrected amount = TotalWater -- MashWater) of the water and any other non-mash steeping grains?

I know 0 about PM or steep, that's why I'm trying to understand + error check what I'm learning.

You are correct. That would be a partial mash.

GT

 

[IowaStateFan]

Thanks everyone, I'm starting to get a better picture. FWIW, I've got a handful of AG batches under my belt, so I do have the equipment, understanding and skills to mash. The problem is that right now I can't dedicate a block of time to properly brew an AG batch, and if I don't get something in the fermentor soon, I'll have a serious beer crisis. I can brew an extract batch in the evening after work, so what I'm trying to do is convert one of my AG recipes over to extract. Here's the grain bill:

9 lbs US 2-row
1 lb crystal 60L
.5 lb vienna
.5 lb victory

Basically, I was just going to convert the 2-row into something like 6.5 lbs of LME and steep the specialty grains, but didn't really understand why everything I've read said that vienna and victory must be mashed, especially since I've brewed some extract recipes that steeped munich malt - which also must be mashed.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, if I steep the vienna and victory in this recipe I run the risk of hazy beer due to unconverted starches, and I'm not likely to get much of the toasty, bread-like qualities from the grains. In other words, I'm wasting my time and good ingredients trying to convert this AG recipe to an extract and steep recipe.

Edit to ask: Maybe a PM with this recipe? Is it much quicker than doing AG? If I PM how much 2-row should I use? Somewhere I recall reading I need at least as much base grain as I have specialty grains, so that would be about 2 lbs, right?

 

[Chriso]

Is it still a PM if it's in a steeping bag, though? Am I being overconcerned? After all, whoever said that mashes have to be lautered was just making a decision, not a rule --> hence the development of Brew In A Bag popularity down in Austrailia. Right?
In other words, steeped grains can still count as a mash even without truly "doughing" (instead "bagging") in?

As for ISF's second question, "how much 2-row", the answer is...... none, right? Since Vienna has enough diastatic power to convert itself, and theoretically to convert the victory too. Enough for the Crystal though? Probably, methinks? Maybe add 1 lb 2-row to help convert the crystal?

 

[Poindexter]

Here's the grain bill:

9 lbs US 2-row
1 lb crystal 60L
.5 lb vienna
.5 lb victory

Edit to ask: Maybe a PM with this recipe? Is it much quicker than doing AG? If I PM how much 2-row should I use? Somewhere I recall reading I need at least as much base grain as I have specialty grains, so that would be about 2 lbs, right?

Indoors on my kitchen stove that will only handle a three gallon boil, my biggest kettle is 5 gallons, here is what I would do for PM:

I can boil 3.5 to 3.75 gallons, and end up with 3 gallons for the fermenter. 3.5 gallons, I would not go over (on my system) about 3-4# of grain.

EDIT: My system would leave about 2 qts water in the grain, so I would use 4-4.5 gallons of water out of a HLT somewhere on this grain bill. /edit

So the Vienna, the victory, the Crystal and maybe 1 pound of 2 row. "steep/ PM" at 155° F for one hour. I would do this in my five gallon SS kettle, direct heat as needed to maintian temp.

Then separate grains from wort with a mesh bag and bottling bucket.

Boil, add (60) hops, etc, cut flame with 15 minutes left in boil, mix in *ME for final gravity - allowing for 2 gallons of cold water coming later- return to heat, return to boil, add (15) hops...

Time consuming, but not difficult and quite tasty.

Just M2c

 

[Poindexter]

Is it still a PM if it's in a steeping bag, though?

No.

PM means you are using enzymes to convert starch to sugar. Steep means you are using hot water to diffuse "stuff" out of the grains.

The equipment used does not change a steep into a PM or vice versa.

The amount of water used does not change a PM onto a steep or vice versa.

If you use enzymes to covert starch to sugar you are mashing, doesn't matter if you are mashing All of your grain bill or partial grain bill.

Better?

 

[Chriso]

If you use enzymes to covert starch to sugar you are mashing, doesn't matter if you are mashing All of your grain bill or partial grain bill.

OK, getting close - but.... the fact that Vienna (especially US vienna, as noted in one of the first posts) has such a high diastatic power, ALMOST of that of 2-row, means........ that any steeping with Vienna in it is technically partial mashing, because enzymes are involved?

Man, this stuff makes so much more sense when i'm not A) sober and B) at work!

Is this kinda like the Matrix - the spoon isn't real unless you want it to be real?

 

[IowaStateFan]

After all this discussion I'm still wondering what my best option is with this recipe. I really like my all-grain version and would like to brew it, but only have time to do an extract brew.

Does a PM take about the same time as an extract + steeped grains brew? In other words can I get it done in about 4 hours one evening? I can normally do an extract brew in 3.5 to 4 hrs from start to cleanup, AG takes me 6+.

If the answer to that is no, is it even worth bothering to steep vienna and victory or should I just find different extract recipe?

Thanks

 

[DeathBrewer]

The amount of water used does not change a PM onto a steep or vice versa.

I thought the amount of water used made a huge difference. You can steep grains to extract flavor and color in 5 gallons of water. when mashing, you want to use the correct ratio (I use ~1.25qt/lb)

basically, the ONLY difference between steeping and mashing is:
1. The amount of water you use is more important
2. The temperature is more imporant
2. You must have grains with the enzymes to convert the sugars in your mash

PMing does not take much longer than extract at all. I follow almost the same process with steeping as I do with mashing.

Here's my method:
1 - heat 1.25 qts of water per pound of grain to ~155 F in a small pot
2 - stir and maintain temperature for 30 minutes
3 - pour into boiling stockpot through a colander, leaving the grains in the colander (using grain bags can help, too)
4 - sparge by pouring 170 F water over the grains in the colander (1.50+ quarts / pound)
5 - top off to whatever you'd like to boil
6 - start your boil

 

[Kaiser]

AG takes me 6+.

I don't want to brag here, but I can easily do AG in roughly 4 hrs. It used to be much longer when I started brewing. Because of that I have been brewing a few batches after work during the summer. Here is the time-line for a standard pale Ale:

crush grains and prepare water the night before:

0:00 - start heating strike water
0:20 - mix strike water and grains, heat sparge water
1:20 - start batch sparging and heat wort during sparge
1:40 - the first run-off boils and gives me a nice hotbreak already
2:00 - the 2nd run-off is in the pot and boiling
3:00 - finish boil, and start chilling
3:30 - chilling done, start whirlpool, clean equipment with hot water from chilling.
4:00 - rack to fermenter and pitch
4:15 - done. The brepot usually stays dirty until I get around cleaning it. Mostly this takes way to long and it gets really nasty inside.

To me that is only an additional hour as compared to extract batches and definately worth the money savings that you get by brewing all grain.

Kai

 

[Poindexter]

I thought the amount of water used made a huge difference.

I do not have enough experience to presume to answer that question correctly. After reading a bunch of nylon mesh grain bag threads here I gave it a shot and - partly through beginner's luck - got 83% brewhouse the second time through, with no sparge water.

I doughed into all the water, no sparge, just like they said to try, and it worked. FWIW I doughed 5# of grain in to ~3.75 gallons of water. The first time I did 57% percent brewhosue, and I have no idea what I will get the third time. I am not getting consistent results yet, but it can be done.

M2c. YMMV. DLYDMBITT. RDWHAHB.

 

[DeathBrewer]

interesting...and pretty impressive. i'll read into that...i don't pretend to be an expert myself. i've only done 2 AG batches (and the first was about 55% eff.) I've just read a bunch of junk and done quite a few PMs

 

[Poindexter]

i'll read into that...

chriso stuck "The Link" in post number ten, this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=48285

 

[DeathBrewer]

nice. thanks...good read. i'm bookmarking that...may have to try it for my PM sometime, it would be much easier than my small f'in colander

 

[IowaStateFan]

I don't want to brag here, but I can easily do AG in roughly 4 hrs. It used to be much longer when I started brewing. Because of that I have been brewing a few batches after work during the summer. Here is the time-line for a standard pale Ale:

crush grains and prepare water the night before:

0:00 - start heating strike water
0:20 - mix strike water and grains, heat sparge water
1:20 - start batch sparging and heat wort during sparge
1:40 - the first run-off boils and gives me a nice hotbreak already
2:00 - the 2nd run-off is in the pot and boiling
3:00 - finish boil, and start chilling
3:30 - chilling done, start whirlpool, clean equipment with hot water from chilling.
4:00 - rack to fermenter and pitch
4:15 - done. The brepot usually stays dirty until I get around cleaning it. Mostly this takes way to long and it gets really nasty inside.

To me that is only an additional hour as compared to extract batches and definately worth the money savings that you get by brewing all grain.

Kai

Kai,

That's great for you and all, but it really doesn't help me and my problem. I've only got 4 or 5 AGs under my belt and I don't have your experience. Someday I hope to, and I agree that AG is definately worth the time and savings, but right now I don't have the time. So back to my original (I think) question. What's the best way to handle the vienna and victory given my constraints?

1. PM will take about the same time as an extract and steep so go ahead and do a PM.
2. PM will take longer than that so go ahead steep the vienna and victory.
3. steeping vienna and victory will lead to haze problems and you won't get any of the goodness anyway, so I should just find a different recipe until I have time to mash it properly.

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

Kai,

That's great for you and all, but it really doesn't help me and my problem. I've only got 4 or 5 AGs under my belt and I don't have your experience. Someday I hope to, and I agree that AG is definately worth the time and savings, but right now I don't have the time. So back to my original (I think) question. What's the best way to handle the vienna and victory given my constraints?

1. PM will take about the same time as an extract and steep so go ahead and do a PM.
2. PM will take longer than that so go ahead steep the vienna and victory.
3. steeping vienna and victory will lead to haze problems and you won't get any of the goodness anyway, so I should just find a different recipe until I have time to mash it properly.

Somewhere between 1 and 2. It may take 15 minutes more than steeping. In steeping, you are going to bring your full amount of water from cold temperatures, warm it, then pull your grains at 170F. In a PM, you can start with a smaller volume of warmer water, heat it to your strike temperature, then let the grains sit for 30 minutes. While they are sitting, you can heat the rest of your water. Strain through colander with 170F water and collect all wort in pot.

The 30 minutes and rinse of the PM is probably half offset by the fact that you can start with a smaller volume of warmer water than steeping.

I would definitely do the PM. You really need a mash (1.25 qts/lb), not hope to get lucky with steeping at 152F in a ton of water where your enzymes that need to do the conversion are diluted. Sure you can get conversion at a gallon per pound, but since the enzymes are so diluted, it would take a few hours to get full conversion.

 

[DeathBrewer]

1


234567890

 

[Chriso]

Echo Bearcat. Option 1, it's not going to be much more than 15-30 minutes total difference. Plus it lets you control the amount of "flour" going into your water - with my nylon mesh bag, steeping in the full volume, I get TONS of flour leaking out of the bag.

With a PM you get all of that in a smaller qty of water, and especially if you're using the grain bag to strain on its way into the main kettle, then it should stop at least some of it from transferring.

I really dig the BIAB thread. I've gone back and read it like 8 times this month. I'm very, very tempted to try to get my extract brewing coworker to switch to the dar- er, I mean, light side through that technique.

 

[Kaiser]

That's great for you and all, but it really doesn't help me and my problem.

Sorry for missing the point so badly.

As Bearcat said, do not just steep vienna. That doesn't work. He is correct that a lot of the PM time can be hidden in the time it takes to heat the water. If you don't have much wort from your PM you could also add it after you started the main boil. But not to late since you need a hot break and kill all the bacteria in it.

Another option is to do the PM ahead of time (I used to do it the night before). Boil the run-off for 10 min and then put the lid on and boil it covered for another 5 min (this will sanitize the lid). Watch for boil-overs. You will have to turn down the heat. Now don't open the lid and let it cool down. If it's cold outside, you can also put it outside for the night. Add this to your brew water the next day.

Kai

 

[IowaStateFan]

Thanks guys. I'm generally in the AG camp. It really isn't that much more difficult, and you get much more control over the final product. I expect that once I get some more experience I'll be able to streamline my procedures, however for now it looks like this brew will get a partial mash.

 

[CBBaron]

Thanks guys. I'm generally in the AG camp. It really isn't that much more difficult, and you get much more control over the final product. I expect that once I get some more experience I'll be able to streamline my procedures, however for now it looks like this brew will get a partial mash.

I'm sure you can streamline to get your AG times reasonable. I've got mine down to about 4.5 hours including cleanup. However most of that time I am fairly busy as my brew stuff is stored in the basement. I mash in the kitchen and I boil and cool in the detached garage. This often involves alot of running around as I have to get tools and ingredients from various locations. Starting real early or doing the brewing real late in the day often allows me to fit it in to my schedule. I guessing my 08.08.08 will have to start about 6am
Craig