Can I use this brand quick grits in place of Flaked Corn?

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rtstrider

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Hey all! I've done tons of reading and I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. But I did have a concern with all brands I'm finding being "enriched". So my question is could I indeed sub this for Flaked Corn?


Also from reading it sounds like a cereal mash would not be needed since these are quick grits. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 
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rtstrider

rtstrider

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Well after doing much more digging think I found the answer. Yes it can be used and without a cereal mash. I'll go ahead and provide the link for anyone else that may end up having the same question

 

d40dave

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I put the grits in a mesh bag and cook at 180F with about half the water I'm going to use for mashing. for an hour. I'm sure I could cook them for less time. I stir the grits every once in a while or else they get very clumpy.
 
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rtstrider

rtstrider

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I put the grits in a mesh bag and cook at 180F with about half the water I'm going to use for mashing. for an hour. I'm sure I could cook them for less time. I stir the grits every once in a while or else they get very clumpy.
So use grits only and essentially mash at 180F for 5 minutes? Aka base malt is not needed to aid in conversion when the grits are cooking?
 

d40dave

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I don't know the typical temperature and times just that I cook at 180F for 1 hour. No you don't use a base malt when you gelatinize the grits but you do once you start mash them at your mashing temperature.
 

IslandLizard

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From the description in the attached link:
"Made from white corn, Jim Dandy Quick Grits cook up hot and creamy in just five minutes."

Looks like they were steamed beforehand, and thus should be (fully) pre-gelatinized. Especially when they're creamy and ready to eat in 5 minutes...

As @d40dave said, just to be sure, I'd probably boil them for 15-30 minutes in plenty of water making a thin polenta. Then use that gummy, starchy liquid as (part of) your strike water (for the mash), brought to the right temp.

That's similar to what I do with the yellow flaked corn from the homebrew shop. I boil that for an hour, add enough cold water to it, and transfer it to my mash tun, where it becomes my strike water. I get tremendous high efficiency from it that way, much better than without the pre-boil.
 
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Miraculix

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From the description in the attached link:
"Made from white corn, Jim Dandy Quick Grits cook up hot and creamy in just five minutes."

Looks like they were steamed beforehand, and thus should be (fully) pre-gelatinized. Especially when they're creamy and ready to eat in 5 minutes...

As @d40dave said, just to be sure, I'd probably boil them for 15-30 minutes in plenty of water making a thin polenta. Then use that gummy, starchy liquid as (part of) your strike water (for the mash), brought to the right temp.

That's similar to what I do with the yellow flaked corn from the homebrew shop. I boil that for an hour, add enough cold water to it, and transfer it to my mash tun, where it becomes my strike water. I get tremendous high efficiency from it that way, much better than without the pre-boil.
Probably the best way to get the best efficiency.

But for lazy guys like me, it goes straight into the grist. If the efficiency suffers, I just use a bit more....
 

day_trippr

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So use grits only and essentially mash at 180F for 5 minutes? Aka base malt is not needed to aid in conversion when the grits are cooking?
The cooking at 180°F is just to make the starches available to the mash enzymes later on.
You definitely do need to mash the grits with enough base malt to bring the net Lintner up to at least ~45°...

Cheers!
 

d40dave

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I noticed that that cream ale recipe also used instant rice, this does not need to be precooked if you what good efficiency, other types of rice do. You can use instant rice without precooking but they are 5x more expensive and I think the same thing applies to grits. A while ago I did an experiment. I did a 1 gallon batch with 1.25 lbs of grain, 20% being either rice or corn, 80% 2-Row. I did this experiment because I was making Cream of Three Crops and ran out of a bag of flaked corn I got for free, at the time I was using parboiled rice. It turns out I shouldn't have used parboiled rice. Here are my efficiency results:

parboiled rice 68.9%
instant rice 80.0%
flaked corn 86.1%
flaked rice 80.0%
quick grits 65.1%

From this it seems like using quick grits or parboiled rice without precooking doesn't add much at all the the gravity of the wort. I used a kludgy setup for this experiment so I'm sure the result are flawed but do show the trend. I used a crock pot with a temperature controller rather than my normal setup

BTW, as another experiment I used this masa and got good efficiency but the beer tasted like a taco, I drank it anyway:).
 
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rtstrider

rtstrider

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I noticed that that cream ale recipe also used instant rice, this does not need to be precooked if you what good efficiency, other types of rice do. You can use instant rice without precooking but they are 5x more expensive and I think the same thing applies to grits. A while ago I did an experiment. I did a 1 gallon batch with 1.25 lbs of grain, 20% being either rice or corn, 80% 2-Row. I did this experiment because I was making Cream of Three Crops and ran out of a bag of flaked corn I got for free, at the time I was using parboiled rice. It turns out I shouldn't have used parboiled rice. Here are my efficiency results:

parboiled rice 68.9%
instant rice 80.0%
flaked corn 86.1%
flaked rice 80.0%
quick grits 65.1%

From this it seems like using quick grits or parboiled rice without precooking doesn't add much at all the the gravity of the wort. I used a kludgy setup for this experiment so I'm sure the result are flawed but do show the trend. I used a crock pot with a temperature controller rather than my normal setup

BTW, as another experiment I used this masa and got good efficiency but the beer tasted like a taco, I drank it anyway:).
That's actually really good stuff! Thanks so much for the numbers. Thinking I'll go by your numbers and use flaked corn. Cream of Three Crops is on the rebrew list too. Wanted to try quick grits but going flaked corn there also due to the above. Will go with Instant Rice or Flaked Rice (whichever is cheaper).
 

d40dave

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For Cream of Three Crops I now use these:
It ends up saving me about $4 a batch, it's more readily available and except for a few minutes of stirring and transferring I really don't do any extra work. It does take more time overall but is simple for my setup.
 

IslandLizard

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Thinking I'll go by your numbers and use flaked corn.
If you can get that 5# bag of Jim Dandy corn grits for $2.98 (59.6 ¢/lb) you're getting yourself a really good deal. Get a few of them. Flaked corn runs at least triple that, likely more, if you can get it at all, it's not always stocked at a typical LHBS.
Sadly it shows OOS on Wally's website...

Will go with Instant Rice or Flaked Rice (whichever is cheaper).
For a couple pounds it may not matter that much, but if you need 5 or 10 pounds or more it starts to add up.
Flaked rice is also pricey as heck, just use any ordinary cheap rice you can get, you're not buying it for flavor. ;)
Grocery store generics, Aldi's, or oriental stores come to mind. Yes, you'll also have to pre-cook it, thoroughly.

Word of caution:
Don't mill (un-flaked) rice on your grain mill, it may cause damage or break it, it's much too hard to mill. Same for dried corn/maize kernels, even groats or grits (cracked corn).

as another experiment I used this masa and got good efficiency but the beer tasted like a taco
Hmm, I wonder why that is.
Perhaps due to it being field corn/maize, or because it's hominy, corn pre-treated with lye?
 

d40dave

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If you can get that 5# bag of Jim Dandy corn grits for $2.98 (59.6 ¢/lb) you're getting yourself a really good deal. Get a few of them. Flaked corn runs at least triple that, likely more, if you can get it at all, it's not always stocked at a typical LHBS.
Sadly it shows OOS on Wally's website...


For a couple pounds it may not matter that much, but if you need 5 or 10 pounds or more it starts to add up.
Flaked rice is also pricey as heck, just use any ordinary cheap rice you can get, you're not buying it for flavor. ;)
Grocery store generics, Aldi's, or oriental stores come to mind. Yes, you'll also have to pre-cook it, thoroughly.

Word of caution:
Don't mill (un-flaked) rice on your grain mill, it may cause damage or break it, it's much too hard to mill. Same for dried corn/maize kernels, even groats or grits (cracked corn).


Hmm, I wonder why that is.
Perhaps due to it being field corn/maize, or because it's hominy, corn pre-treated with lye?
I don't know but I suspect pre-treated with lye.
 
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dwhite60

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I

I don't know but I suspect pre-treated with lye.
Most all grits are treated with lye. Lime (calcium oxide) can be used too but isn't as fast or effective. The vast majority of lye ends up rinsed out of the grits in processing.

Your old-fashioed, traditional, soft-pretzel is par-boiled in water with lye before baking.

Drink enough alcohol and it will kill you too 😬!
 

madscientist451

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I just boil the grits and then chuck it in the mash. Sure, you can do a "cereal mash" with some barley malt and a step mash to a boil, but on the homebrew scale, I don't see much advantage.
 

dwhite60

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I've done a cereal mash with corn meal a couple of times. It's great for flavor but it's a lot of work. If I can get close to the flavor with grits I'll be using grits.
 

Miraculix

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I noticed that that cream ale recipe also used instant rice, this does not need to be precooked if you what good efficiency, other types of rice do. You can use instant rice without precooking but they are 5x more expensive and I think the same thing applies to grits. A while ago I did an experiment. I did a 1 gallon batch with 1.25 lbs of grain, 20% being either rice or corn, 80% 2-Row. I did this experiment because I was making Cream of Three Crops and ran out of a bag of flaked corn I got for free, at the time I was using parboiled rice. It turns out I shouldn't have used parboiled rice. Here are my efficiency results:

parboiled rice 68.9%
instant rice 80.0%
flaked corn 86.1%
flaked rice 80.0%
quick grits 65.1%

From this it seems like using quick grits or parboiled rice without precooking doesn't add much at all the the gravity of the wort. I used a kludgy setup for this experiment so I'm sure the result are flawed but do show the trend. I used a crock pot with a temperature controller rather than my normal setup

BTW, as another experiment I used this masa and got good efficiency but the beer tasted like a taco, I drank it anyway:).
This might explain why I get no corn flavour in my beers, when throwing the grits directly into the mash...
 

hottpeper13

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I do a cereal mash with my rice and corn brews,mainly because I think I get more flavor from a step mash and these are highly attenuated ,so dough in at 143* while cereal mash is boiling then add to main mash for a step to 158*.
 
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I've made a cream ale that has won a 2nd best of show, a while back. I used plain yellow grits (not quick or fast). I boiled them gently with 10% 6-row (by weight vs the corn weight) in water for about 20 minutes. The extra 6-row prevents them from becoming a big-ole-glob of jellied grits. Then I did a normal two-step mash.

I bought a 25-lb bag of grits at the US Chef's food store. I want to say it was around $20, looks to be $25 now, so about $1/lb.
 
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d40dave

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I don't understand cereal mashes. This link explains what to do and is similar to other links:
It's really step 2 that I don't understand. With rice, for instance, it's calling for 20% of malted barely to be added to the rice and mashed at 172F (gelatinization temperature) for 20 minutes. What's the purpose of the malted barely, 172F is to high for mashing barely, it's like a mash out temperature? In step 1 it says "malted barley will provide the enzymes needed to aid in converting and breaking down the sugars ". But if you just gelatinize the rice and add it to the your mash and let the barely in there aren't you saving the malted barely in the cereal mash?
 

hottpeper13

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Actually 172 is a little low for rice gelatinazation.

Here's my solution ,1- soak rice overnite at the same ratio you would cook it, ie 1 cup rice , 2 cups water.
Put the spurs to it stirring often but not constant ,until 185-189. kill heat wrap in a blanket or put in warm oven for 20 min.
Chill with ice or cold water(amount needed for barley malt) add 5-10% high DP malt (I use pilsner) to hit 148-152
Rest 30 min. The liquid should be clear on top which means the starch is converted. Bring to a boil and boil 20 min.
while this is happening you need to time your main mash so you can use the cereal mash as a step like when doing a decoction.

This is basically taken from Technology Brewing and Malting by Kunce.
 

Miraculix

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Why is everybody overcomplicating this to the maximum? It is about getting the starch gelatinized this needs temperature and time. Meaning, add water, boil for some time, done.

If it's too gooy, add more water.

Alter that, cool it to mash temperature and put it into the mash. You want to have it in the mash from start, as otherwise, mainly alpha amylase gets the starches to play with as the beta is already mostly denatured later on (depending on temperature and time).

In other words boil it, let it cool a bit, throw it into the mash, Mash it, done.
 
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Why is everybody overcomplicating this to the maximum? It is about getting the starch gelatinized this needs temperature and time. Meaning, add water, boil for some time, done.

If it's too gooy, add more water.

Alter that, cool it to mash temperature and put it into the mash. You want to have it in the mash from start, as otherwise, mainly alpha amylase gets the starches to play with as the beta is already mostly denatured later on (depending on temperature and time).

In other words boil it, let it cool a bit, throw it into the mash, Mash it, done.
Have you ever seen that 5 lbs of cooked and cooled grits (or even rice, for that matter) look like in a 5-gallon stock pot? A huge unwildy cylinder of gel. Dang near impossibe to break down. Using 10-20% of the base malt (barley) in the cereal mash will prevent that.
 
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I don't understand cereal mashes. This link explains what to do and is similar to other links:
It's really step 2 that I don't understand. With rice, for instance, it's calling for 20% of malted barely to be added to the rice and mashed at 172F (gelatinization temperature) for 20 minutes. What's the purpose of the malted barely, 172F is to high for mashing barely, it's like a mash out temperature? In step 1 it says "malted barley will provide the enzymes needed to aid in converting and breaking down the sugars ". But if you just gelatinize the rice and add it to the your mash and let the barely in there aren't you saving the malted barely in the cereal mash?
In step one, they say this:
Mill or grind your cereal adjuncts down into a fine grist – ideally smaller than your milled barley grains. Add about 20% of your total malted barley grains (i.e. Pale or Pilsner malt) to the cereal adjuncts. This malted barley (I believe they mean the REMAINING malted barley, the 80%) will provide the enzymes needed to aid in converting and breaking down the sugars, as many cereal adjuncts don’t have sufficient enzymes by themselves.
 

Miraculix

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Have you ever seen that 5 lbs of cooked and cooled grits (or even rice, for that matter) look like in a 5-gallon stock pot? A huge unwildy cylinder of gel. Dang near impossibe to break down. Using 10-20% of the base malt (barley) in the cereal mash will prevent that.
Why let you cool it? Keep it at mash temp, throw it into the mash, all good!
 

lablover

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I have used them directly and they worked fine.
 

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