Can I make a vienna ale?

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cadarnell

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I was enjoying some negra modelo last night and I want to make something like that, but I am not able to lager .... I can ferment at about 60 ambient though...

could I just use a good clone recipe for the modelo and maybe use some notty fermeneted at a pretty low ale temp? .. would I get anything close to the negra modelo flavor? ... thoughts?
 
You could totally do this. I won't be exactly the same, but it will be a good beer. You might consider a kolsch strain or the white labs San francisco lager yeast.
 
You could totally do this. I won't be exactly the same, but it will be a good beer. You might consider a kolsch strain or the white labs San francisco lager yeast.

is that san fran lager yeast one that will work at a low ale temp?

if I went with an ale yeast, you think a kolsh over notty?

and thanks for the thoughts :)
 
I was thinking about this and I went out anf got a 3 gal better bottle fermenter that fits in my fridge. I can lager now.
 
I was thinking about this and I went out anf got a 3 gal better bottle fermenter that fits in my fridge. I can lager now.

i have a 3 gallon carboy that I could fit in my fridge, but then my wife would probably see how well I would fit in there with it ... lol
 
A local brewery here makes a 'Vienna Cream Ale' which is just like what you're suggesting. I think they use california ale yeast to ferment it. It's one of my favorite beers. It's a little fruitier than a negra modelo or dos equis amber but in a good way.
 
Try deathbrewer's vienna/northern brewer smash. I made it using S-05 fermented at 64. Tastes like a more flavorful negra modello, to my mind. Very drinkable! Off the to o f my head it's something like:

10# vienna
1 oz NB @ 60
1 oz NB @ 15
1 oz NB @ 5
 
Try deathbrewer's vienna/northern brewer smash. I made it using S-05 fermented at 64. Tastes like a more flavorful negra modello, to my mind. Very drinkable! Off the to o f my head it's something like:

10# vienna
1 oz NB @ 60
1 oz NB @ 15
1 oz NB @ 5

that sounds pretty good, but I did want to make a darker beer ... maybe just add some black malt for color? ... and the IBUs are in the high 50s with DBs recipe ... negra modelo is in the high 20s I think ... so I think I'd want to lower those too ... i think ??? ... thoughts ??
 
Fermentis Saflager S 23 is supposed to work well at 60F, I usually use it much colder, but I have heard it does well
 
that sounds pretty good, but I did want to make a darker beer ... maybe just add some black malt for color? ... and the IBUs are in the high 50s with DBs recipe ... negra modelo is in the high 20s I think ... so I think I'd want to lower those too ... i think ??? ... thoughts ??

Black might be too roasty, maybe some chocolate malt? It would help make the beer taste a little drier too. Subbing out a couple pounds of the vienna for some dark munich could be good too.

If it were me making the beer I'd aim for 25-30 IBUs. Actually, if it were me, I'd probably up the gravity to like 1.065 or so and aim for 35. Now I'm starting to wish I had open fermenter.
 
Black might be too roasty, maybe some chocolate malt? It would help make the beer taste a little drier too. Subbing out a couple pounds of the vienna for some dark munich could be good too.

If it were me making the beer I'd aim for 25-30 IBUs. Actually, if it were me, I'd probably up the gravity to like 1.065 or so and aim for 35. Now I'm starting to wish I had open fermenter.

all good stuff ... I'll report back with a recipe .. thanks all :mug:
 
I would say your original plan is fine. Just get a recipe for a decent clone and maybe just use the cleanest ale yeast you can find. Pacman is pretty clean and does well at 60.
 
You could add a little chocolate for color, though I wouldn't add more than 0.25#, or it would taste too much like a brown ale (though a brown ale with an all-vienna base might be interesting).

I will say, on the version I brewed (the recipe above), it doesn't actually taste very hoppy. I'm not quite sure why (maybe the hops, which I ordered from morebeer, were older than I imagined?), but I actually got less of the Northern Brewer minty-ness than I was hoping for. So you could drop the hops. Maybe 0.75oz at 60 and 0.5oz at 15 and 5? But I wouldn't change up the base - 10#'s of Vienna provides a lot of flavor.

Yeast-wise, and clean yeast would be fine. I used S-05 because that's what I had around, and I'm generally not a fan of the Notty "twang," but Pacman or Notty fermented low would both probably work well.

That will get you really close. And I'll bet you like your clone better than the original! :)
 
I'm drinking a vienna lager right now which I say definitely has a little chocolate in it. I would go with a very simple grain bill: vienna to the gravity you are looking for and .25 chocolate like Palefire suggested (no more). Personally I like kolsch yeast for a clean ale, but chose whatever clean ale yeast you prefer and ferment at the bottom of its range. You'll definitely end up with something VERY close to a vienna lager, and a mighty fine beer.
 
I was thinking about this and I went out anf got a 3 gal better bottle fermenter that fits in my fridge. I can lager now.

Yes and no. You're still going to need to raise the temperature inside the fridge to 50*F or so. Not all fridges will do this without an outside controller (as 50 is above food-safe temperatures).
 
Some kolsches (I have no idea how to pluralize kolsch) are lagered. He could ferment with an ale yeast at a low temp, then lager in the fridge in the mid-low 30's with the better bottle.
 
cadarnell said:
is that san fran lager yeast one that will work at a low ale temp?

if I went with an ale yeast, you think a kolsh over notty?

and thanks for the thoughts :)

Yes, the San Fran lager works at low ale temps. I used it to make a Sam Adams Boston Lager clone and it worked great.

Honestly, any clean ale yeast would work. I suggested the kolsch because it works well at re low end of ale temps and gives an almost lager like profile.

Again, you won't get negra modelo but you'll have something good.
 
I went with

95% vienna
4% caramunich
1% chocolate

hallertauer to bitter up to 23 IBUs

white labs kolsch yeast

going to ferment at 60 f. for three weeks and bottle @70 for two more weeks and then try and store for two more weeks in the fridge.

I'll give a report after all that .... Thanks again all !!
 
I went with

95% vienna
4% caramunich
1% chocolate

hallertauer to bitter up to 23 IBUs

white labs kolsch yeast

going to ferment at 60 f. for three weeks and bottle @70 for two more weeks and then try and store for two more weeks in the fridge.

I'll give a report after all that .... Thanks again all !!

Looks good. I might have to try something similar myself! :mug:
 
Looks good. I might have to try something similar myself! :mug:

thanks ... the brew session went really well ... i hit my mash temp @152 and i hit my OG right on @1.050 ....

it's amazing how you get dialed in on your numbers after you do this 20 or so times ...

cheers :mug:
 
just a small report ... I bottled last night after a 3 week primary @ 55-60 F ... OG was 1.051 and FG 1.012 ... it tasted pretty danged good to me ... I wasn't really getting much of a vienna lager flavor though ... but it did still seem pretty green and who knows what another month will bring .. I'll report back ... here is the hopville link again if anyone is interested ... cheers !!

Hopville . "vienna ale .. I think?" Vienna Lager Recipe
 
Try deathbrewer's vienna/northern brewer smash. I made it using S-05 fermented at 64. Tastes like a more flavorful negra modello, to my mind. Very drinkable! Off the to o f my head it's something like:

10# vienna
1 oz NB @ 60
1 oz NB @ 15
1 oz NB @ 5

That's interesting. I've got 10 #s of vienna and a pack of 05, and I love Negra Modelo. No chocalate or darker malt, eh? I don't have NB hops, but I've got a pretty good assortment otherwise - what else do you think would work there?
 
That's interesting. I've got 10 #s of vienna and a pack of 05, and I love Negra Modelo. No chocalate or darker malt, eh? I don't have NB hops, but I've got a pretty good assortment otherwise - what else do you think would work there?

I clicked this thread because I was contemplating trying a pale ale SMaSH recipe with ~10lb vienna and a few oz of nugget hops. No clue how it's going to taste though, so feedback is welcome if anyone's done something similar.

Looking forward to hearing how the OP's recipe turns out. :mug:
 
ok ... I made sure I had my favorite salsa and some chips on hand for my official tasting of this beer ...

first the bad ... this beer is cloudy ... and not really a very pretty color ... it is nothing at all to look at ... that's probably my fault, but i do think that kolch yeast is part of it too ... also the head retention is just ok .... by the end of the glass there was a thin layer of foam around the glass, but pretty much just beer in the middle of that to look at ...

now for the good ... the beer taste like a real vienna lager to me ... not quite as crisp, but still very crisp for an ale ... the hallertauer hops are perfect for the beer IMO, and the amount is perfect for my taste ...... and the malt flavor is just spot on for the style ... really really just yum !!!

when I brew it again I might try to add something for head rentention, but other than that, I think the recipe is solid ...

any thoughts on changes I might make given the problems I have with the beer would be appreciated ... cheers all !!!
 
ok ... I made sure I had my favorite salsa and some chips on hand for my official tasting of this beer ...

first the bad ... this beer is cloudy ... and not really a very pretty color ... it is nothing at all to look at ... that's probably my fault, but i do think that kolch yeast is part of it too ... also the head retention is just ok .... by the end of the glass there was a thin layer of foam around the glass, but pretty much just beer in the middle of that to look at ...

now for the good ... the beer taste like a real vienna lager to me ... not quite as crisp, but still very crisp for an ale ... the hallertauer hops are perfect for the beer IMO, and the amount is perfect for my taste ...... and the malt flavor is just spot on for the style ... really really just yum !!!

when I brew it again I might try to add something for head rentention, but other than that, I think the recipe is solid ...

any thoughts on changes I might make given the problems I have with the beer would be appreciated ... cheers all !!!

You could add some wheat malt to help with the head retention.

Do you know if the haze is yeast or chill derived? If yeast, you could cold condition/crash the beer before bottling - did you lager this batch at all? This would help with chill haze too. Of course, you could use finings of some sort.

Curious too what you mean by the color not being pretty - is it just because it is cloudy?

Glad this turned out well. Obviously, the important piece is that it tastes good!
 
You could add some wheat malt to help with the head retention.

Do you know if the haze is yeast or chill derived? If yeast, you could cold condition/crash the beer before bottling - did you lager this batch at all? This would help with chill haze too. Of course, you could use finings of some sort.

Curious too what you mean by the color not being pretty - is it just because it is cloudy?

Glad this turned out well. Obviously, the important piece is that it tastes good!

well ... the color thing is probably because I wanted a beauty to look at and this beer right now is cloudy ... the srm is supposed to be 10 and i do like that color ... I'm just being weird about that probably ..

I didn't really lager it no ... I just fermented it at 60 ish for three weeks and bottled now for almost three ... the bottle that i tried and was really cloudy had only been in the fridge one full day ... so I am sure it will clear up some more in the fridge ... hopefully a lot more

I have 12 beers in my garage at about 50* and I am going to try and keep my hands off those for a while ... so I guess thats sort of like lagering ??? ... not sure about how to lager really ... I have a lot to learn.

but as i said ... I really think the recipe is solid as long as I get something in there for the head retention ... I will brew it again this winter while I have cool temps in my garage ... if you brew something similar, please post about it here ... or put a link to it here .. thanks for all your help :mug:
 
just another quick report on this bew ... it is clearing up some after being in the fridge for a few more days ... like I have done a lot with this hobby, I am probably rushing it.

and i really think this is the best beer I have brewed to date to have with food ... I had one with a ruben last night and it just really clicked ... can't wait to try one with some of my favorite fajitas ... i will soon ... cheers all ... this is good beer :)
 
Picture of your next pour would be appreciated.

I do have a pic of the last pour and it cleared up a lot ... still a little murky but much better than the floaties in some of the first ones I had ... I'll try to post it soon on a differnt site and put a link here.

this beer was really very very good with mexican food ... I am changing a couple things about it (mainly just adding some corn as many negra clones seem to have some) and brewing it again next brew day ... probably this comming monday ...

I have now have a johnson controller and a freezer so I can lager it for a few weeks this time :) :) ... here is the new recipe ... cheers all !!!





7.5 lb Vienna 78.9%

1 lb Flaked Corn 10.5%

0.5 lb CaraMunich 5.3%

0.25 lb Carafa II 2.6%

0.25 lb Flaked Barley 2.6%

Hops

0.75 oz

Domesic Hallertau 60 min

0.75 oz

Domesic Hallertau 30 min

Yeast

White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
 
I've started using the Saflager 34/70 at low ale temps...I love it.

thanks for that idea ... I think I am going to use the kolsch next go around, but I'll give that a try later on ... now that I have a way to control ferment temps, I have so much I want to try ... cheers !!
 
I was thinking about something similar, but adding corn sugar which is likely in negra modeling, and using wlp080, which is a ale/lager hybrid with room temp fermentation range.

Thoughts?
 
I know its been a while but I wanted to update this recipe and let folks know its an awesome beer .... I now have a fermentation chamber and I can lager the kolsch yeast ... for this beer I do a 10 day primary and a 2 week lager at 36

Try this recipe if you like negra modello ... you will be happy ... cheers

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/13030/pass-the-fajitas-ale
 
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