Can I disable the pressure relief valve in my pinlock keg lids?

[262andbrew]

Background (and all of my experience) I got 4 old hand me down Coke kegs that had no valves in the lids. Replaced a couple of o-rings on posts and one lid o-ring and everything was good. I had to ramp up pressure on one of them for the lid to seat, but really everything was pretty easy.

I just doubled the size of my flock, adding 4 more pinlocks, but these lids are different. I tested the pressure when they arrived and everything was good.

I gave 2 of them a good cleaning, and sterilized in preparation for kegging 2 new batches tonight. I put pressure to them fussed with the lid o-rings, but eventually got that figured out BUT, and this is my the reason for my question, the pressure relieve valves in the lids are leaking at any more than just a few pounds of pressure. That is going to be a problem.

I tried the Keg lube, no dice.
I removed and cleaned, no dice.
I swapped valves from lid to lid, no dice.

I grabbed another one and cleaned up one of my old ones so I got my brews kegged, but I need to figure out my new problem children.

So, what do I do now?
Can I disable the valves?
Do I just need to buy new springythings? (it looks like the are 12 bucks a piece...not going to break me, but kind of sucks)
Why did they work when they showed up and not work when wet? Can they not get wet?

Let me know what you would do next for these problem lids. I am spent, what I thought was going to be a 2 hour clean->transfer->cleanup night end up being 4 hours of frustration and wasted co2. Good thing I had a few on tap and I have a forgiving wife .

Peace.

 

[Poindexter]

I don't have any coke kegs. If it was pepsi kegs (gotta be pretty similar) I would say new springy things at $12 each. Pepsi pressure reliefs work fine while wet.

In the mean time you have some really sharp five gallon SS fermenters you can put to work, just transferrign with CO2 is going to be an issue.

 

[Jmac00]

sounds like someone swapped the lids as most coke kegs don't have the pressure relief in the lid, pepsi does. Good luck with getting it figured out. Oh, if you have an air compressor, i use mine after i made a fitting to pressure test my kegs...saves on CO2.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

You could always just have the opening welded shut.

Personally, as the reliefs fail I am doing this. Fewer places for failure means less maintenance and fewer spare parts.

Pressure relief can be obtain elsewhere in the system.

 

[262andbrew]

sounds like someone swapped the lids as most coke kegs don't have the pressure relief in the lid, pepsi does. Good luck with getting it figured out. Oh, if you have an air compressor, i use mine after i made a fitting to pressure test my kegs...saves on CO2.

That is what I thought. I bet these babies have had long and interesting lives.

Good call on the compressor. It sits about 8 feet away from the Keezer. I will go ahead an make the connections.

 

[262andbrew]

You could always just have the opening welded shut.

Personally, as the reliefs fail I am doing this. Fewer places for failure means less maintenance and fewer spare parts.

Pressure relief can be obtain elsewhere in the system.

I like this solution. Do it once and be done.

 

[262andbrew]

Ha...well I ordered in new pressure relief valves, got them today and went to put them in...and all 3 of the 'bad' valves are holding pressure now. I guess at 90 degrees and 95% humidity everything is sticky. I will hold off on using the new springs and see if they work the next time I am ready to keg a new batch.
If they fail at that point I will throw in the new ones. If they fail then I will do a bunch of cussing and go find a welder.
At any rate, at this point I guess the stars are in line and life is good.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sometimes, it help them seat better by giving them some lube.

You can go with the high dollar keg lube or just use petroleum jelly.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Just my nitty opinion but it's not a good idea to remove/disable relief valves on pressure vessels. True that we homebrewers almost never get up to even half the relief pressure of 130 psig but it's still bad practice.

While you could install relief valves elsewhere in the system that's not really a good idea either...because it has to be connected to the system in order to have relief protection. The tank itself needs the relief valve.

I only have two Coke pin-locks and both have relief valves built into the lids...they just don't have the manual release lever/poppet. It's a different type of relief valve. No tank should be without a relief valve.

Just my opinion. 'No relief valve' works until it doesn't.

 

[MacBruver]

You could always drill them out and replace them with these:

http://stores.kegconnection.com/Detail.bok?no=454

 

[ekjohns]

does that also release pressure? I just had a pressure valve break, well i broke it out of anger after i could not get it to seal. I really think its the keg lid that is the problem where it seals to the bottom of the lid so this looks like it would bypass that correct?

 

[noiz2]

You could always just have the opening welded shut.

Personally, as the reliefs fail I am doing this. Fewer places for failure means less maintenance and fewer spare parts.

Pressure relief can be obtain elsewhere in the system.

I know this is an old thread but this post is really dangerous. Gas expands fast and furious so if say a regulator failed and you have no relief on the keg you could have a very big explosion on your hands.

People think "it's just air", but remember the horror stories of pressure cookers blowing up and taking out a wall of a house? They have a working pressure of 15 PSI... They were blowing at under 100 PSI. The keg won't go at 130 PSI, probably closer to 200 - 300 but a broken regulator could dump 860 PSI into your poor keg turning it into a deadly weapon.

And that is assuming that you have had a welder certified for pressure vessels do a proper weld.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I know this is an old thread but this post is really dangerous. Gas expands fast and furious so if say a regulator failed and you have no relief on the keg you could have a very big explosion on your hands.

People think "it's just air", but remember the horror stories of pressure cookers blowing up and taking out a wall of a house? They have a working pressure of 15 PSI... They were blowing at under 100 PSI. The keg won't go at 130 PSI, probably closer to 200 - 300 but a broken regulator could dump 860 PSI into your poor keg turning it into a deadly weapon.

And that is assuming that you have had a welder certified for pressure vessels do a proper weld.

I know this is an old post but did you even bother to read my entire post?

I mentioned that pressure relief can be obtained elsewhere. As in inline.

Same as you would do for kegs that do NOT have a relief in the lid.

 

[noiz2]

yes I did and elsewhere does not solve the issue. Or rather it might, but this is still a very dangerous gamble. If for no other reason that whoever gets the keg next, I'm assuming it will out live the owner, won't know that special precautions need to be taken. People die every year in the brewing world from failures in welding in pressure vessels. Much like the weight of water, generally grossly underestimated, the power of compressed gas is very underrated by folks who haven't experienced it. All conventional explosives are is a rapidly expanding gas. In say gun powder you create the gas very rapidly in the case of a pressure vessel you create it relatively slowly but release it rapidly. The result is the same, an explosion and lots of shrapnel.

The safety releases are there for a reason, generally someone at some point got killed or seriously injured. Industry doesn't spend money it doesn't have to.

 

[MaryB]

I put a quick disconnect on my air brush compressor. It has an oil and water filter so the air is clean plus I have it regulated at 15psi. I swap hoses and use it for faucet and keg cleaning. Fill a keg with BLC, attach the compressor to air in, put it on th efaucets and flush them collecting the BLC in a bucket. Refill the original keg and attach liquid out to liquid in and invert dirty keg over a bucket. The liquid tube sprays the walls down pretty dang good. Take what I collect in the bucket and repeat for the next keg(I usually wait until I have 2 to clean).

That is what I thought. I bet these babies have had long and interesting lives.

Good call on the compressor. It sits about 8 feet away from the Keezer. I will go ahead an make the connections.

 

[MaryB]

I saw a small garage type air compressor tank explode. It was at 45 PSI. It took out part of the exterior wall, broke the guys legs and filled him with shrapnel and the shrapnel shredded the inside of the garage. I got a piece in the arm as I dove out the door... I told him his tank was rusted when we drained water from it but he didn't listen so I stood my the door ready to bolt... Still have that scar and it was 40 years ago....

yes I did and elsewhere does not solve the issue. Or rather it might, but this is still a very dangerous gamble. If for no other reason that whoever gets the keg next, I'm assuming it will out live the owner, won't know that special precautions need to be taken. People die every year in the brewing world from failures in welding in pressure vessels. Much like the weight of water, generally grossly underestimated, the power of compressed gas is very underrated by folks who haven't experienced it. All conventional explosives are is a rapidly expanding gas. In say gun powder you create the gas very rapidly in the case of a pressure vessel you create it relatively slowly but release it rapidly. The result is the same, an explosion and lots of shrapnel.

The safety releases are there for a reason, generally someone at some point got killed or seriously injured. Industry doesn't spend money it doesn't have to.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

yes I did and elsewhere does not solve the issue. Or rather it might, but this is still a very dangerous gamble.

Actually, it does solve the issue and no it is not a dangerous gamble.

You apparently have no idea just how many of these kegs are out there that have no built in pressure relief.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I saw a small garage type air compressor tank explode. It was at 45 PSI. It took out part of the exterior wall, broke the guys legs and filled him with shrapnel and the shrapnel shredded the inside of the garage. I got a piece in the arm as I dove out the door... I told him his tank was rusted when we drained water from it but he didn't listen so I stood my the door ready to bolt... Still have that scar and it was 40 years ago....

Ayup. Have seen this happen. It is surprising just how few people know, or practice, bleeding off their compressors to remove the condensate. And/or recognize that compressor tanks do have a limit on life expectancy.

 

[noiz2]

Actually, it does solve the issue and no it is not a dangerous gamble.

You apparently have no idea just how many of these kegs are out there that have no built in pressure relief.

No, it creates a worse one, and yes it is a dangerous gamble. You apparently have no idea about safety or understanding of basic engineering.

I'll look forward to your episode on the Darwin Awards.

 

[MaryB]

THIS is why

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVP_A7eGYxw[/ame]

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

THIS is why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVP_A7eGYxw

"THIS is why" what?

Never suggested that pressure relief be eliminated. Only that it does not need be on the tank itself. Prior to in-lid pressure relief the valve was placed inline between the tanks (corny keg) and the CO2 bottle. This is how it was done with coke prior to in-lid PRV valves. In fact, current sanke system do not have PRV's on the keg. They are inline, on the tap itself, between the keg and the CO2 bottle. ASME had pushed for PRV's on the Sanke keg but backed off allowing it to be inline.

That is all. I am done.

 

[The_Bishop]

The pressure relief *ABSOLUTELY* needs to be on the pressure vessel. Every single keg, corny or sanke, that I have ever seen has an overpressure safety release. They are there for a reason! Saying that they're not necessary is providing dangerous advice that can get someone hurt or killed.

Sankey kegs definitely have an overpressure safety; there's a weak spot stamped/machined into the keg so it will vent instead of explode if over-pressurized. The old coke corny kegs have the same type of setup in the lid, a weak spot to fail and vent before explosion.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The pressure relief *ABSOLUTELY* needs to be on the pressure vessel. Every single keg, corny or sanke, that I have ever seen has an overpressure safety release. They are there for a reason! Saying that they're not necessary is providing dangerous advice that can get someone hurt or killed.

Where on a Sanke keg have you seen the relief valve?

You haven't. It's built into the coupler. In-line.

Never suggested they are unnecessary. They are absolutely necessary. Location on/off vessel has inherent hazards either way that require the end user to put some thought into the use of the system.

 

[The_Bishop]

I didn't say relief valve. I said overpressure relief.

You can see a pic of one here:
http://www.blefakegs.com/blefa-kegs/

You are saying it's OK to disable the pressure relief valve on a corny keg. That's wrong. It's not OK. It's there for a reason, that being that pressure vessels are dangerous when pressurized beyond their design.

Even the old corny kegs with no pressure relief 'valve' have the same kind of overpressure burst relief in the keg lid.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I didn't say relief valve. I said overpressure relief.

You can see a pic of one here:
http://www.blefakegs.com/blefa-kegs/

You are saying it's OK to disable the pressure relief valve on a corny keg. That's wrong. It's not OK. It's there for a reason, that being that pressure vessels are dangerous when pressurized beyond their design.

Even the old corny kegs with no pressure relief 'valve' have the same kind of overpressure burst relief in the keg lid.

So, apples to oranges and omissions.

 

[The_Bishop]

I've never seen anyone so staunchly defend an absolutely indefensible pile of nonsense.

Good luck.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I've never seen anyone so staunchly defend an absolutely indefensible pile of nonsense.

Good luck.

My supposed "pile of nonsense" is staunchly defended by ASME. A whole society of folks who's lives revolve around the safety and engineering of pressurized vessels.

I at least understand the difference between stamped burst/rupture disc and PSV/PRV, their intent, application, and general operational parameters. I've read relevant sections of code as relates to liquid containing vessels pressurized from a remote source. I know that coca-cola vessels (pin lock cornelius) went into production in the 1950's and burst disc was not code mandatory until the late 90's leaving over 40 years worth of kegs reliant on off-vessel pressure protection that is STILL deemed adequate by ASME regulations. And is STILL the primary means of pressure relief utilized in Sankey keg systems.

But you know what, go ahead, keep telling me I am wrong if it makes you feel better about yourself.

 

[The_Bishop]

I'll try to explain this one last time.

Someone asked if it's OK to disable the pressure relief valve on a keg. The safe answer is 'No' as then the keg has no overpressure protection. An 'off keg' overpressure relief is only doing anything when the keg is actually connected to it. That's why kegs have pressure relief valves on them, to prevent overpressure explosions. If the keg is not equipped with a pressure relief valve, then it has a machined 'burst' mechanism of some kind to prevent a catastrophic explosive failure. That's not my 'opinion', that's how the ASME codes work.

You also mentioned 'welding the relief valve opening shut'. That's wrong, too. You're not supposed to alter pressure vessels, which is what a keg is. Advising someone to 'weld' it closed is dangerous, as now the keg has no overpressure protection. Again, not my 'opinion'. Fact.

As far as what was done in the 50's? Well, they used to put lead in the gasoline and asbestos in everything then, too. Didn't make it right. Regulations change for a reason.

 

[MaryB]

Fill a keg and stash it with priming sugar OFF the co2 system, pickup a wild infection... oops no PRV, you now have a keg building to dangerous pressure levels... and when it destroys wherever you store kegs, or hurts someone when it lets go I hope you have lots of money to cover the lawsuit!

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

wow, nothin like arguing over a 7-year old thread.

 

[The_Bishop]

More like: Preventing someone from reading bad advice and hurting themselves.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

More like: Preventing someone from reading bad advice and hurting themselves.

.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Just my nitty opinion but it's not a good idea to remove/disable relief valves on pressure vessels. True that we homebrewers almost never get up to even half the relief pressure of 130 psig but it's still bad practice.

While you could install relief valves elsewhere in the system that's not really a good idea either...because it has to be connected to the system in order to have relief protection. The tank itself needs the relief valve.

I only have two Coke pin-locks and both have relief valves built into the lids...they just don't have the manual release lever/poppet. It's a different type of relief valve. No tank should be without a relief valve.

Just my opinion. 'No relief valve' works until it doesn't.

don't worry, if the keg doesn't have a PRV, it'll make its own

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...URVjVhabGuHZNPTZ_HwrhjQQ&ust=1506530432415515