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cwi

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With John Guest push-in fittings, you would need to make sure alignment is correct, which would be made more difficult in cases where the tubing is stressed, as in the previous posters situation. Foaming issues could arise otherwise.

Aussies use that style of fitting as standard equipment on shanks in the bev world, at least from what I have seen. Their shanks have one threaded in the end. It does make connections much quicker. They do add a few more places to clean. I would rather just snip off the barb every so often (1 year?), and refit.

For the previous posters issue of the tubing pushing the door open, I don't see why just securing a loop of the hose to an appropriate location, coiling the hose into a bundle, or maybe a single zip tie wouldn't solve his issue.

There are also 90 deg tailpiece fittings if a 90 is the only solution.
 

smakudwn

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I do both, I have the big coils of tubing zip tied together, but there are spots that i need a tight turn that I use the elbow. Its so much easier to just pop the line out and back in then trying to put a barb in this type of line.
 

cwi

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I do both, I have the big coils of tubing zip tied together, but there are spots that i need a tight turn that I use the elbow. Its so much easier to just pop the line out and back in then trying to put a barb in this type of line.
I was pointing out that using John Guest fittings is not free of drawbacks- potential foaming, additional cleaning, AND you still have to put a barb on somewhere for direct use with shanks (unless you use Aussie style, or MFL adapter). Those need to be weighed against ease of use.

I personally don't find installing the barbs to be that difficult using boiling water, and the spring-back of the tubing forms an almost crevice free seal on the barb. Maybe some work on increasing grip strength should be listed as one the tips for using this tubing. The internet has tons of stuff to exercise to.
 

smakudwn

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I do use what I think you are referring to as "Aussie style" adapters to my shanks (I have no barbs). I have no issues with foaming or leaking. I run 3 taps, 2 corney kegs and a sanke keg. But like you said, it wasn't like it was THAT hard to put the barbs on. Its just easier for me now with this set up.
 

cwi

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I do use what I think you are referring to as "Aussie style" adapters to my shanks (I have no barbs).
Aussie style shanks have female threads with John Guest push-in fittings screwed into them. The adapter common in the US are the stainless MFL to Sankey flange for use with beer nuts and washers.

The US style adapter does cause foaming, but may not depending how close your system is to foaming. I have run the exact same setup with and without the US Sankey-MFL adapter, and only the addition of the adapter caused foaming. It was with highly carbed cider and soda, and I tried everything to make each connection as perfectly as possible when using the adapter- nothing worked, except using a straight barb fitting.

I have no issues with foaming or leaking. I run 3 taps, 2 corney kegs and a sanke keg. But like you said, it wasn't like it was THAT hard to put the barbs on. Its just easier for me now with this set up.
You may have had no issues with foaming, but the nature of the John guest 'push-in' connections can cause foaming, which is all I said. Unless you can prove that there can't be any issues with foaming due to the 'push-in' fittings, your experience with no foaming issues is simply anecdotal, and won't be of any help the guy who can't get rid of a foaming issue caused by a 'push-in' fitting alignment problem.

You sound like you might like a link to my Uncle Billy's "Lightnin' Stoppin' Sticks" he sells. He's used them for years during thunder storms, and has yet to be struck. They're pretty simple really, and I don't think he even bothered with a patent, so you can make one yourself. It's just a sharpened 8 foot metal rod you carry around. Just make sure to point it up, Uncle Billy thinks that's the secret to them.
 

smakudwn

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You may have had no issues with foaming, but the nature of the John guest 'push-in' connections can cause foaming,

why is the nature of the fittings that they can cause foaming?

...push-in' fitting alignment problem

I have pulled these apart dozens of times and I have no idea how I could put the tubing back in and have "alignment problems". Maybe I am missing something?
 

cwi

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why is the nature of the fittings that they can cause foaming?

I have pulled these apart dozens of times and I have no idea how I could put the tubing back in and have "alignment problems". Maybe I am missing something?

If you read my earlier post, I stated there could be issues when the tubing is stressed/flexed, as in the poster's case with the fridge issue. If the tubing is not aligned with the internal orifice, or with the other tube when using unions (depending on fitting design), it can a create a cavitation/nucleation site.

If you've never experienced a foaming issue, you don't know how difficult some can be to track down. Sometimes very small defects cause significant issues. Usually the system needs to be on the verge of foaming anyway, but with higher pressures, small issues can lead to big problems.

Are you using true Aussie style push-in shanks, or the US style MFL-Beer Nut adapters with a female flare barb (like to fit a standard corny QD) in the beer line?
 

smakudwn

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cwi

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Here is what I'm using. http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2502-female-adapter-bspp-516-x-58-bspp.aspx These thread onto my shanks. And I use http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2574-female-adapter-flare-516-x-14-flare.aspx on the MFL ball lock disconnects and the MLF tailpiece I have on the Sanke coupler.

Its good to know that these could be an issue if I ever start kegging soda.
The Aussie shanks look like the fittings screw into, not over, the shank using a flare or something.

I think I have seen those before when searching for other 5/8 fittings. Strange they carry BSPP in 5/8. I haven't even seen that stuff on UK sites or US industrial fitting sites that have almost every type of fitting. I wonder if they have them solely for beer fittings. That's the only instance I could find where 5/8 BSPP is used, but I didn't look that hard.

I may have to get a set to play with, but I generally like to deal with plastic parts as little as possible. Those could come in handy for various non-standard uses of Sankey fittings/couplers.

RE:Soda- Have fun with that. Some have no issues, but most do. Too long can be an issue, since the carb starts coming out of solution if the line is too long- it helps to look at the lines to see where the foaming starts. I like to carb it up pretty high, otherwise what's the point. 25psi is difficult. I use that at ~34F, but don't remember consulting any carb charts, so maybe I am overcarbing. The warmer your keezer, the higher you have to have it, and also the worse the water holds onto it in the line turbulence, so it gets worse

I may try a built-in barbed stainless shank to get rid of as many joints as possible. Another source of foaming can be the gap between the flange and the shank end. Not sure why the normal washers are so thick there, but I'm going to try thinner ones with only slightly oversized holes next time.
Your corny dip tube Orings need to be perfect as well. Gas wants to escape into the liquid flow from around that area- instant foam.

The set and forget tactic is even more important with soda. You can cheat the last part, but using the same reg for the last bit is key. A big cause of foaming is the beer (or soda) being carbed to a higher level than the current pressure. Best to set a pressure for that keg, and never touch it.
 

fosaisu

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...

The US style adapter does cause foaming, but may not depending how close your system is to foaming. I have run the exact same setup with and without the US Sankey-MFL adapter, and only the addition of the adapter caused foaming. It was with highly carbed cider and soda, and I tried everything to make each connection as perfectly as possible when using the adapter- nothing worked, except using a straight barb fitting.


You may have had no issues with foaming, but the nature of the John guest 'push-in' connections can cause foaming, which is all I said. Unless you can prove that there can't be any issues with foaming due to the 'push-in' fittings, your experience with no foaming issues is simply anecdotal, and won't be of any help the guy who can't get rid of a foaming issue caused by a 'push-in' fitting alignment problem.

...

I'm still setting up my kegging system so I have neither data nor experience myself, but I have read lots of threads about swivel nut and john guest connectors and don’t remember seeing anyone complaining about excess foaming. Is this common knowledge that I missed out on? I would be surprised if there is a serious failing with swivel nut tailpieces that is not widely known and discussed on the forum given how popular MFL fittings are here, but then I’ve been surprised before.

Anyway, I’m hoping your experiences are just as anecdotal as smakudwn’s (i.e. that the swivel nut tailpieces you used in the experiment you describe above were from a bad batch/mfr), since I’ve already purchased push connectors and swivel nut tailpieces for my setup, which I plan on using mainly for beer but also for the occasional cider or soda. Guess I’ll find out soon enough, and if nothing else it's another thing to try tweaking if I have foaming problems with my more highly carbonated product!
 

kincade

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I use the guest fittings as well. No foaming with either beer or cider. No experience with soda though.
 

craigevo

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I am planning to get 90 degree shank tails. But I am wondering how to fix the tubing to the fridge so that it will allow an inch or two of pull when I open the fridge door. the tap furthest from the hinge will be about a foot from the hinge so at the moment it has to pull out a foot of tubing from within the fridge when I open the door. I have the tubing coiled and zip tied.

so when I open the door the whole coil has to move out by a foot, this itself can get caught on QD or the gas regulator/guages. Normally it doesnt, but then when I close the door, the whole coil has to move back in a foot and then it hits a shelf or another keg, or again the guages etc.

If I fix the coil to the shelf then the coil doesnt move - ok. But then I have to have a foot of extra loose (ie not zip tied in the coil) tubing so I can open the door. This then is the problem because when I close the door that foot wants to press out and open the door.

with elbow tails I can route the line to the hinge side of the fridge, thus the pull is reduced to only an inch or two I guess. And then the push back force and angle will hopefully not be sufficient to open the door.

Sounds like no one else has had this problem, so I will order the elbow tails and play around, maybe screw in a hook in the wall near the hinge to keep the lines in place, but allow a bit of movement. Even if the hook thing doesnt work out, just having the lines pushing parallel to the door may prevent the door opening accidentally.

I don't know if the John Guest recommendations were for me or not, but I have a friend who tried them and said they worked fine except for when the tubing flexed at a certain angle and then it leaked a bit. If kept straight it was OK. For my scenario I dont feel comfortable using them for that reason. But I wont need to I hope.
 

cwi

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I am planning to get 90 degree shank tails. But I am wondering how to fix the tubing to the fridge so that it will allow an inch or two of pull when I open the fridge door. the tap furthest from the hinge will be about a foot from the hinge so at the moment it has to pull out a foot of tubing from within the fridge when I open the door. I have the tubing coiled and zip tied.

with elbow tails I can route the line to the hinge side of the fridge, thus the pull is reduced to only an inch or two I guess. And then the push back force and angle will hopefully not be sufficient to open the door.
You might be able to do this without the elbows, but not sure what your clearance is like for the bent hose.
The keezer guys who hinge their collar (why, IDK), run all their lines to the hinge point like you are describing. I think your own ingenuity may be the only solution- or maybe a keezer. Just don't hinge the collar.

Sounds like no one else has had this problem, so I will order the elbow tails and play around, maybe screw in a hook in the wall near the hinge to keep the lines in place, but allow a bit of movement. Even if the hook thing doesnt work out, just having the lines pushing parallel to the door may prevent the door opening accidentally.
I just remembered that I have seen more than a few fridges/kegerators with contraptions to keep the door closed- latches, velcro, bungee, etc. Not sure if this same type of issue was part of the impetus. It would be kind of a pain to have to deal with a latch/catch everytime you want to get into the fridge.

I don't know if the John Guest recommendations were for me or not, but I have a friend who tried them and said they worked fine except for when the tubing flexed at a certain angle and then it leaked a bit. If kept straight it was OK. For my scenario I dont feel comfortable using them for that reason. But I wont need to I hope.
I believe your friend might be lying. Have you not seen the overwhelming evidence in this thread of their infallibility? Had he said they caused foaming issues, I would have been sure he was lying.
Also, the 90s you would need are likely the push-in fittings with the worst foaming potential, even if installed correctly- turbulence.
 

fosaisu

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So cwi, how about posting the link to the group buy for your uncle's lightning stopping sticks? Sounds like I'm going to need a few of those to complete my kegerator.

Seriously though, I genuinely haven't seen anyone else on the site comment that MFL or john guest connectors gave them foaming problems (a separate issue from foaming in general, I think) -- if there are other threads out there then I must have missed them. Though I haven't set my kegging system up yet I am certainly interested in avoiding wasting money, so if it turns out that MFL and john guest are unsuitable for serving sodas and ciders, I will be surprised and disappointed not to have run across that information in all of my reading here the past few months.
 

zachattack

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I think someone needs to RDWHAHB. This is a hobby, not academia. We can debate about theory all day, but on this forum anecdotal experience is worth a lot. If I'd known about the John Guest fittings when I set up my keezer, I would be using them.

I check in very regularly in the bottling/kegging subforum where many people complain about foamy pours and many people help them solve the problem. I've never seen any posts about foaming problems with the fittings. If they cause such problems, those problems are rare.

I do think that 99% of the "help I have foam" posts are made by those new to kegging, and the problem is almost always line length, overcarbonation or temperature stratification. Occasionally something more fun like a bad o-ring, debris in a faucet or a bum Sanke coupler. It seems that barrier tubing and fancy fittings are mostly used by the more experienced keggers, who have already learned how to solve or avoid foaming problems.
 

cwi

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I think someone needs to RDWHAHB.
Oh man, I hope I didn't miss a good hot headed response before it got deleted?

This is a hobby, not academia. We can debate about theory all day, but on this forum anecdotal experience is worth a lot.
Just that when people use anecdotal evidence to reject something theorectical, that is a bit much, and should be pointed out. I can promise that I could set up a system with push-ins, correctly; make it foam; and then correct it with standard fittings. Especially if I used a push-in 90 somewhere. Dealing with cider and soda is a different ball game.
Also, some of this was after the OP already posted that his buddy had leaking issues with the push-ins, and didn't want to use them.

And while we're on anecdotes, since you're a big believer in them, does that mean you want in on the group buy for my Uncle Billy's "Lightnin' Stoppin' Sticks", too?

If I'd known about the John Guest fittings when I set up my keezer, I would be using them.
Even if you knew about the leaking and cleaning?
If these were listed, just like the barrier tubing being a bitch (for some people) to get onto barbs is every time the tubing is brought up, that would be fair. These are being touted as the great white plastic hope. I even see guys trying to use these for CO2, which should definitely be avoided, or at least properly warned against.

I check in very regularly in the bottling/kegging subforum where many people complain about foamy pours and many people help them solve the problem. I've never seen any posts about foaming problems with the fittings. If they cause such problems, those problems are rare.
The penetration isn't that great for these yet. Plus, many people 'resolve' their problems by carbing lower next time. Plenty of people give up when that works.

The original guy to mention push-ins recommended a union 90. Those have one of the highest risks of causing foaming, especially at higher pressures or with marginally balanced systems. They are a 'hard' 90, and add 2 additional joints.

I do think that 99% of the "help I have foam" posts are made by those new to kegging, and the problem is almost always line length, overcarbonation or temperature stratification. Occasionally something more fun like a bad o-ring, debris in a faucet or a bum Sanke coupler. It seems that barrier tubing and fancy fittings are mostly used by the more experienced keggers, who have already learned how to solve or avoid foaming problems.
Things change once you step up to soda pressures. Most of those threads don't have a happy ending. I actually think that vinyl might work better for soda pressure, because of the shorter length. There is the plastic taste, though.

Being this thread is about getting barbs into barrier tubing, coming in and talking about push-ins, and especially merely repeating your own anecdotal experience in support of them, would be like someone going in to a push-ins thread and telling them to quit being pansies and learn how to use tools like a man. Or, maybe going in to a barrier tubing thread and saying you don't taste any plastic in your beers, so quit bitching.

Also, there are many newbies who want to be like the cagey veterans, as in this thread by the kegging rookie who is planning on push-ins and barrier tubing.
 

drksky

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Thanks for the tips everyone, I have tried so many techniques and have found one that works very well for me

You will need the following items
heat (heat gun)
heat proof gloves
flared stretching device
washer (large enough to fit on your stretching device but small enough to catch on the hose)
large bucket of cold water
vegetable oil (cold oil is fine for lubing the hose)

Stretching of the hose is best done in three stages. First just a flare on the tip, then a bit more each time (Do not try to stretch it all in one shot this will lead to cracking and kinking)

  • Evenly heat up your flared stretching device with your heat gun on high(I found 60 seconds heating all sides of your stretching device works best)
  • Dip just the tip of your hose into the oil, and apply controlled pressure onto the stretcher. the oil makes it easier to slide hose on and off of the stretcher
  • After each stage of stretching I take the hose with stretcher inside and dip it into the bucket of cold water (this helps set the hose and allows you to stretch a small amount in each stage)
  • I also use a washer to push the hose off the stretcher after it cools (if you try to remove the hose by pulling it actually tightens like a Chinese finger trap)
  • After you have stretched the hose in 3 stages it should be able to almost slide onto your barb or fitting when cold, if you have not gotten to this stage do another cycle of heat and cold setting
  • Now heat up your barb fitting for 60 seconds and insert your hose into its final position and hold it in place for 30 seconds prior to dipping it in the cold water bucket.
  • I finished the job by soaking in PBW, hot water rinse, Starsan, then installed to my keezer.

Hope this helps some one, and if you do not have a heat gun and choose to use the oven heated jar of oil, be very careful hot oil can make a mess and hurt if you are clumsy.
I did not feel comfortable with any plastic fittings going into the oil, I only used this method on my raw SS barbs. But the heat gun worked just great heated oil is not needed.

Zombie thread, but this worked great for me. Heat gun and a large nail set used to stretch the hose gently. The 1/4" barbs almost, but not quite, slid into the hose with no more heat.

I ended up just heating the barb just a bit to coax it in.
 

danielcole

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I'm a processes engineer at accuflex just use 1/4" tube if u crack the liner in the bev seal ultra will get b ettween layers and will scrap tube very good product but if u kink or do what ur doing u may as well just get cheap poly tube
 

fifelee

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Just ordered one of these. Will see how it works.

image_16029.jpg


http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-1-swaging-tool-66750.html#.UxI2weNdU7A
 

centex99

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I'll chime in on this thread... I originally bought bevseal ultra and failed with fittings and sold it for regular beer line... I've since replaced the beer line and went with bevseal ultra this time... haven't had it long enough to comment on any off flavors/cleanliness/etc... but it seems just fine. I went with the john guest fittings and they work great... seem to seal great and no leaks... I had MFL's on my ball lock taps and used those JG fittings plus the JG fittings that went directly onto the shank... My only gripe is the beer line isn't very flexible so takes up more space in my keezer... but as long as I can get all of them to fit, even if they're not organized, I'm not really sure I care.
 

drksky

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I have to admit, after my last post I still had trouble with leaking and bought the guest fittings. Well worth the cost of alleviating the aggravation of tying to fit that hose over barbs.

Had all four of my taps converted in about 10 minutes.
 

Beezer94

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I spent 3 hours yesterday beating my head against the wall trying both just heat gun and screwdriver and boiling methods and the stuff kinked inside the tubing every flippin time!

Tried the Swaging tool and it worked very well. Put it in a vice and pointed a heat gun at the tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfDSiY0_7RE&list=UUXjsJKp3LilGnPgxKhvhRzA&feature=share

6-In-1 Swaging Tool
http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-1-swaging-tool-66750.html?hftref=cj#.UyjTGahdU7B

Thank you so much this method was so much easier! Well worth the trip to harbor freight just for it. Took 10 minutes to get right compared to yesterdays debacle.

Now I just need to move my taps to the side of the fridge since this ridiculously stiff tubing is not going to work on my door even zip-tied.

[RANT=ON]Really hope this is the greatest tubing of all times because I've never been so angry at a little piece of plastic in my life. If this doesn't work out I'll use regular beverage tubing and just replace it every time I change kegs. I could replace regular tubing every week for the next year and spend less time than I did just getting one of my 'ultra' tubes on.[/RANT=OFF]
 

FuzzeWuzze

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Its weird some people have so many problems, i wonder if its the same tubing sometimes.

It wasnt easy by any means but i did 10 connections(5 taps) in probably 2-3 hours just boiling water, stretching with some needle nose pliers and shoving it in, reheat, push on another few mm, repeat 3-4 times and move onto the next one.
 

Beezer94

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I got the one to the ball-lock end with just 2 tries of the heatgun and screwdriver, it was getting it on the shank end that just wouldn't happen. It was mostly the inner layer jamming in on itself causing a partial blockage, which just wasn't acceptable to me as it'll cause problems. The fact that I got one side on without too much work is why it was so aggravating not to get the other as easily.
 

tg123

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ahhh!!! i got it in after 30min using the water method but now the other piece won't pass through! heading over to Harbor Freight to pick up that swaging tool now.

IMG_20140702_192446.jpg
 

MicroBrewMaster

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I got on a roll and did 8 taps in a snap using screw driver with heat gun, my only big thing was after heating and getting screw driver in was to let it sit for a few mins to cool down then pull screw driver out and bam it would fit


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 

YoKramer

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Another very satisfied John Guest user here. Great to see that Birdman brewing has started carrying them!

They have a great price on them, the line and the Perlicks with shanks. Bought my whole tap setup through them and couldnt have been ahppier.
 

tg123

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They have a great price on them, the line and the Perlicks with shanks. Bought my whole tap setup through them and couldnt have been ahppier.

Bought most of my keezer setup with them as well. Pretty good prices compared to others. Wish I'd added those connectors though. Don't want to pay $8 for shipping just for those.
 

insanim8er

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ahhh!!! i got it in after 30min using the water method but now the other piece won't pass through! heading over to Harbor Freight to pick up that swaging tool now.

It's so much easier if you attach that swivle barb to a coupler before jamming it into the hose with the nut on the other side.

Bought most of my keezer setup with them as well. Pretty good prices compared to others. Wish I'd added those connectors though. Don't want to pay $8 for shipping just for those.

Ya... They added them after I bought my hose. A guy I know got some and said they're great.
 

BiggerE

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Thanks for all the help in this thread.

My method is to heat a kettle to boiling. Turn off the heat put the tubing in for 5 seconds, twist the swaging tool in as far as it will go. Repeat two more times. Put the beer nut and tail piece on the end of the swaging tool and push it in, goes about a third of the way. But the tube and hardware back in the water, maybe a 1/4 inch deeper than where the tail piece is for 5 seconds. Pull it out and push it the rest the way in with the swaging tool. Takes about a minute for each in. Pro tip once it is in put it all in the warm water for about 10 seconds. It kind of forms a seal around the tail piece.

I've done 30 of them following that method. My grip is incredible right now!

DONT'S
1) Do not use pliers or anything that compromises the outer tubing
2) Do not use anything that can tear the inner tubing. If it tears you got to clip it and start over.
3) Do not expose too much tubing to a heat source. It will kink and be worthless.
4) Cut the tubing straight.

DO'S
1) Get a swaging tool. Harbor Freight is cheapest, but Home Depot might be more convenient even at twice the cost.

2) Go to Goodwill and get a water kettle if you don't have one. They have tons for like $5.

3) Get some gloves to protect your hands from the heat.

4) Take your time and get it right.
 

Devin

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Looking to upgrade my keg lines from vinyl to accuflex and have been looking over these threads showing the method for putting the tubes onto the barbs. One thing that I don't understand is why people are heating the barbs? That is counter intuitive to me. I can understand heating the hose to get it more flexible and pliable. But heating the barb just makes the barb bigger (thermal expansion). If anything, it seems that you would want to cool the barb (although the direct contact with cold metal against the tubing might defeat the purpose of making the tubing more pliable). Why heat the barb? Just to maintain the softness of the tube during the pressing process?
 

JuanMoore

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Looking to upgrade my keg lines from vinyl to accuflex and have been looking over these threads showing the method for putting the tubes onto the barbs. One thing that I don't understand is why people are heating the barbs? That is counter intuitive to me. I can understand heating the hose to get it more flexible and pliable. But heating the barb just makes the barb bigger (thermal expansion). If anything, it seems that you would want to cool the barb (although the direct contact with cold metal against the tubing might defeat the purpose of making the tubing more pliable). Why heat the barb? Just to maintain the softness of the tube during the pressing process?
Because the expansion of the steel from heating is minimal, and since the thermal mass of the barb is way higher than the tubing, a cold barb will cool and harden the tubing immediately. Getting the barb hot ensures that the tubing stays warm and flexible in the area that's most crucial: the part touching the barb.
 

Devin

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Looking at material properties, the CTE of the steel, while less than PVC, is still in the "ball park" of the PVC (i.e. less than an order of magnitude). My guess is that as you stated, the thermal mass of the steel would make it such that the contact between the two materials would suck the heat quickly away from the tubing, making it less flexible, which must be more important than the slight size difference.

Thanks for the response. Looking forward to this upgrade - I have been noticing the vinyl taste in my pours lately if the beer has been sitting in the lines for a while.
 

ubermick

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Question about those John Guest fittings (threadjacking alert!). Have them on the way, but was wondering if the shank connectors (PI451015FS) require the use of ye olde beer washer? (Am assuming not, but the ones I have are ratty having swapped all my lines out, so wondering if I should snag a few)
 

cyberbackpacker

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Not to be that guy, but the John Guest fittings do not have self sealing threads-- at least none that I have seen. That said, they do come with a black "washer" preinstalled in the fitting that creates the seal against the shank.
 

day_trippr

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You're correct, and I keep forgetting there's a rubber gasket deep inside the BSP female ends. My bad...

Cheers! :mug:
 
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