Budweiser Clone Recip Needed for an Experienced Brewer

[agslax]

Similar threads have been started, but most Budweiser clones are for new brewers who don't want to do a lager or people trying to impress a Budweiser fan who don't need it to actually taste like Budweiser.

My goal is to make a Budweiser clone that tastes as close to the real thing as possible. I know that sounds strange, but it is in tribute to my father in law whose favorite beer was "bud heavy" and he encouraged my brewing. I do realize this will be difficult as there is very little to mask any off flavors, but the challenge is half the fun.

If I could crack into the brewery in St. Louis and see the recipe, what would a scaled down recipe look like? I

Hope this covers it. And thanks in advance for the help with this special brew.


Edit: Changed to remove extract v. all grain preference from OP. I will work with whatever gives best results.

 

[beaksnbeer]

Never happen as an extract you will never get the correct color/malt profile as there is just to much inconsistencies in the extracts themselves. I believe that you can get very close AG. I have a Patersbier that is made with Pilsen malt that would be close in color and malt flavor. My bmc friends love it.

 

[grathan]

There is a St Louis strain of american lager yeast. Wyeast 2007.
Beechwood chips for the secondary.

I haven't tried to clone this, but it can't be too hard.
mash 145-148 3 hours
4.75# 2-row
4.75# pilsner

ahh extract, maybe 6# of the lightest extract you can find.

1 oz Liberty %4 60 min
rice syrup solids 1# (10 minutes)
table sugar 0.75 (10 minutes)
0.5 oz Liberty 1 min

 

[The_Doctor]

I'd do something along the lines of what grathan said.

Lightest extract you can find.
Rice syrup solids
liberty or other high AA german hop at 60 minutes to 20-25 ibu, no other additions.

I would also strongly encourage a mini cereal mash with corn and 6-row, then add this wort at the start of your 90 min boil.

If you've got the time to let it lager you can skip the beechwood chips, they're not for flavor but to increase surface area for yeast flocculation and faster cleanup.

 

[BigEd]

Similar threads have been started, but most Budweiser clones are for new brewers who don't want to do a lager or people trying to impress a Budweiser fan who don't need it to actually taste like Budweiser.

My goal is to make a Budweiser clone that tastes as close to the real thing as possible. I know that sounds strange, but it is in tribute to my father in law whose favorite beer was "bud heavy" and he encouraged my brewing. I do realize this will be difficult as there is very little to mask any off flavors, but the challenge is half the fun. I would prefer to do an extract recipe and have no problems with refrigeration to reach lagering temps.

If I could crack into the brewery in St. Louis and see the recipe, what would a scaled down recipe look like? I

Hope this covers it. And thanks in advance for the help with this special brew.

The recipe is actually pretty simple although I have to agree with beaksnbeer that using extract isn't going to get you close enough. If you go the all grain route you will be much more likely to get closer to the target in terms of color and flavor (or lack of it depending on your viewpoint). Bud is roughly 55% lager malt and 45% rice with IBUs clocking in at about 12. I might sneak in a few percent of dextrine malt to help with body. The hops would be a blend of traditional lager varieties. As was mentioned above you can buy the AB yeast as the 2007 Wyeast. Mash fairly low and long to mimic the extended mash/sparge AB uses to wring every possible sugar molecule out of the grain, maybe 148F for 60 minutes and 20 minutes @ 155F followed with a 168F mashout.


This should get you pretty close:

5 lbs domestic 2-row brewer's malt
1/2 lb CaraPils/Dextrin malt
4 lbs rice, prepared for mashing

1/4 oz Saaz + 1/4 oz Hallertau @ 60 minutes
1/8 oz Hallertau @ 15 minutes

 

[agslax]

Great responses! It looks like "not" was left off my OP when regarding extract, so good news. I will certainly use an all grain recipe.

Should I take any other steps to clarify the beer (Irish moss, gelatin, etc)?

Thanks for the help!!

 

[jammin]

Im stoked to view this thread and not see a bunch of ridiculous haters. Good luck on the brew

 

[agslax]

Yes, I am very encouraged by the positive responses. Once more question:

Since I have never used rice before, I do not know the differences in what you buy. Whey you say 4 lbs rice, are you referring to that much flaked rice or rice syrup?

 

[grathan]

If you've got the time to let it lager you can skip the beechwood chips, they're not for flavor but to increase surface area for yeast flocculation and faster cleanup.

I'm not convinced that the beechwood isn't imparting a flavor. I've never seen beechwood nor have I used lager yeast before, but I detect a unique flavor in Budweiser.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

I've been at this 'clone Budweiser' quest for some time.

First, Budweiser has to be defined (obviously somewhat subjective):

BU:GU: ~0.3
IBU: 12 - 13
ABV: 5.0
SRM: 3
Minimum 30% Rice (Flaked or Syrup Solids)
A mixture of American 2 - row and 6 - row barley
O.G. ~ 1.050
F.G. ~ 1.010
(I'm thinking O.G. should really be 1.048 and F.G. perhaps 1.008)

My latest attempt (7.5g boil -> 5.5g final):

3 lbs American 2 - Row Pale
3 lbs American 6 - Row Pale
3 lbs Rice Syrup Solids - 10 min (boil)
.2 oz Magnum [15AA] - 60 min (boil) (must use an IBU calculator or beer recipe software along with the IBU listed on your hops package)

90 min mash @ 149F
90 min boil

Wyeast 2007 -> 2L 1.040 Pilsner DME starter -> 2L 1.040 Pilsner DME starter (Be sure to decant before pitching)

Fermentation is generally 48F for 10 days -> 58F for 4 days. Lager for 2 weeks @ 34F. Bottle or keg.

The tricky part is the fermentation schedule and attenuation. 1/4 teaspoon Amylase enzyme can be added right before the diacetyl rest.

You also don't want to overpitch or underpitch this - so best to use a yeast calculator.

I've done a decoction mash on this (just the barley not the rice) and it seems to help get the SRM up to 3.

I should add that the HopShots seem to work well in lieu of actual hops.

My water is fairly soft surface water but I still cut it 70% with distilled and add salts back to get the sulfate/chloride to 1.3 ratio such that it gives a malty impression.

pH is also important in this recipe, I try to keep the mash, sparge and boil @ ~5.2.

The goal for final pH (after fermentation) is usually in the 4.0 to 4.2 range which should be ok for this high adjunct beer.

 

[peterj]

Yes, I am very encouraged by the positive responses. Once more question:

Since I have never used rice before, I do not know the differences in what you buy. Whey you say 4 lbs rice, are you referring to that much flaked rice or rice syrup?

I would go with flaked rice if you're going all grain. Also, I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that AB uses 6-row malt in their beers. This might be a good idea if you go with flaked rice to make sure you have enough enzymes to convert it well.

 

[agslax]

I've been at this 'clone Budweiser' quest for some time.

First, Budweiser has to be defined (obviously somewhat subjective):

BU:GU: ~0.3
IBU: 12 - 13
ABV: 5.0
SRM: 3
Minimum 30% Rice (Flaked or Syrup Solids)
A mixture of American 2 - row and 6 - row barley
O.G. ~ 1.050
F.G. ~ 1.010
(I'm thinking O.G. should really be 1.048 and F.G. perhaps 1.008)

My latest attempt (7.5g boil -> 5.5g final):

3 lbs American 2 - Row Pale
3 lbs American 6 - Row Pale
3 lbs Rice Syrup Solids - 10 min (boil)
.2 oz Magnum [15AA] - 60 min (boil) (must use an IBU calculator or beer recipe software along with the IBU listed on your hops package)

90 min mash @ 149F
90 min boil

Wyeast 2007 -> 2L 1.040 Pilsner DME starter -> 2L 1.040 Pilsner DME starter (Be sure to decant before pitching)

Fermentation is generally 48F for 10 days -> 58F for 4 days. Lager for 2 weeks @ 34F. Bottle or keg.

The tricky part is the fermentation schedule and attenuation. 1/4 teaspoon Amylase enzyme can be added right before the diacetyl rest.

You also don't want to overpitch or underpitch this - so best to use a yeast calculator.

I've done a decoction mash on this (just the barley not the rice) and it seems to help get the SRM up to 3.

I should add that the HopShots seem to work well in lieu of actual hops.

My water is fairly soft surface water but I still cut it 70% with distilled and add salts back to get the sulfate/chloride to 1.3 ratio such that it gives a malty impression.

pH is also important in this recipe, I try to keep the mash, sparge and boil @ ~5.2.

The goal for final pH (after fermentation) is usually in the 4.0 to 4.2 range which should be ok for this high adjunct beer.

Thanks for the details! Good to know someone else has tried this. Are 3 lbs of rice syrup solids the equivalent of DME in regards to converting from grain? If so, this would make it about 5lb rice flake if I prefer to use that, right? It seems about right to hit 33% rice.

Have you tried hops other than magnum? I do not have a good memory what Saaz, Hallertau, or liberty taste like, but I do not think of Budweiser when I use Magnum. Maybe it is just the low quantity in bud.

 

[beaksnbeer]

I would use a pilsen malt as it is lighter in lovibond then the pale will be pic of my Patersbier

 

[BigEd]

I'm not convinced that the beechwood isn't imparting a flavor. I've never seen beechwood nor have I used lager yeast before, but I detect a unique flavor in Budweiser.

Well then let me convince you. The beechwood "chips", which are actually maybe 18-24" long, are polished and coated so there is no wood to beer contact. They are there merely to provide more surface area for the flocculating yeast to accumulate. It wouldn't matter if they were made out of stainless steel or polyethylene. As for the unique flavor you sense in Budweiser, and other AB products, it may the the green-apple of acetlyaldehyde whhich their yeast strain is noted for producing.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

Thanks for the details! Good to know someone else has tried this. Are 3 lbs of rice syrup solids the equivalent of DME in regards to converting from grain? If so, this would make it about 5lb rice flake if I prefer to use that, right? It seems about right to hit 33% rice.

Have you tried hops other than magnum? I do not have a good memory what Saaz, Hallertau, or liberty taste like, but I do not think of Budweiser when I use Magnum. Maybe it is just the low quantity in bud.

Budweiser uses many different varieties of hops. I have used Saaz, Hallertau, Northern Brewer, Brewers Gold, Liberty, Goldings and now Magnum. The low IBUs make it difficult to tell by aroma or flavor exactly which hops are used. Instead the purpose of the hops seems more for bittering.

The deal with the rice is that you need enough grain to have a slight maltiness cut with dryness imposed by the rice. The generally accepted ratio is 70% grain and 30% rice. I've gone 80% grain and 20% rice. IMO it's closer to 30% rice.

Pilsner malt vs Pale... I don't know, I think Pilsner was too grainy when used at 100% of the grain portion. Perhaps 50% of the grain.

Flaked Rice substituted in the recipe above would still be 3lbs but you would need to up the grain by 1lb. Be sure to use lots of Rice Hulls.

 

[TangoHotel]

I have a buddy who was a brewers for the BW in Colorado. I'll ask his input and report back. This is for a 5 gallon batch correct?

 

[agslax]

I have a buddy who was a brewers for the BW in Colorado. I'll ask his input and report back. This is for a 5 gallon batch correct?

Yes, just 5 gallons right now. But I done mind scaling a big batch down.

 

[agslax]

Budweiser uses many different varieties of hops. I have used Saaz, Hallertau, Northern Brewer, Brewers Gold, Liberty, Goldings and now Magnum. The low IBUs make it difficult to tell by aroma or flavor exactly which hops are used. Instead the purpose of the hops seems more for bittering.

The deal with the rice is that you need enough grain to have a slight maltiness cut with dryness imposed by the rice. The generally accepted ratio is 70% grain and 30% rice. I've gone 80% grain and 20% rice. IMO it's closer to 30% rice.

Pilsner malt vs Pale... I don't know, I think Pilsner was too grainy when used at 100% of the grain portion. Perhaps 50% of the grain.

Flaked Rice substituted in the recipe above would still be 3lbs but you would need to up the grain by 1lb. Be sure to use lots of Rice Hulls.

Great! Thanks again for the info! I will report back and let you know how it goes.

 

[gbarron]

Agree with the earlier post that the unique Budweiser flavor is acetaldehyde which is a natural byproduct of their yeast strain, not beechwood. The yeast character is what sets Bud apart from other standard American lagers IMO. Using their yeast would be critical in trying to make a real clone.

 

[ShootsNRoots]

The yeast character is what sets Bud apart from other standard American lagers IMO. Using their yeast would be critical in trying to make a real clone.

Absolutely agree. However, without the ability to culture or acquire their yeast, one of the readily available strains are a good second choice.

I haven't researched where the original strain was captured but perhaps, if one was feeling really lucky, some wild yeast similar to that of the Budweiser strain could be captured and cultured.

 

[gbarron]

The information I have seen suggests that WLP840 and WY2007 are the Budweiser strain, so I think you should be able to get the right yeast pretty easily.. I'm not sure what ferm temp A-B uses to help that acetaldehyde formation, though.

 

[beaksnbeer]

Budweiser uses many different varieties of hops. I have used Saaz, Hallertau, Northern Brewer, Brewers Gold, Liberty, Goldings and now Magnum. The low IBUs make it difficult to tell by aroma or flavor exactly which hops are used. Instead the purpose of the hops seems more for bittering.

The deal with the rice is that you need enough grain to have a slight maltiness cut with dryness imposed by the rice. The generally accepted ratio is 70% grain and 30% rice. I've gone 80% grain and 20% rice. IMO it's closer to 30% rice.

Pilsner malt vs Pale... I don't know, I think Pilsner was too grainy when used at 100% of the grain portion. Perhaps 50% of the grain.

Flaked Rice substituted in the recipe above would still be 3lbs but you would need to up the grain by 1lb. Be sure to use lots of Rice Hulls.

I believe with the rice this would dry out any leftover malt/grain flavor

 

[ShootsNRoots]

The information I have seen suggests that WLP840 and WY2007 are the Budweiser strain, so I think you should be able to get the right yeast pretty easily.. I'm not sure what ferm temp A-B uses to help that acetaldehyde formation, though.

They are rumored to be the Budweiser strain, but I haven't seen (or searched for) anything to confirm it.

In addition to temperature and other variables, acetaldehyde can come from taking the beer off the yeast too quick. With Budweiser going from grain to glass in 28 days it's possible it may be just a byproduct of their fermentation process.

To be honest though, I don't detect much if any acetaldehyde in Budweiser. That doesn't mean it's not there, it just mean I don't detect it.

 

[roastquake]

Here's a clone recipe from Drew Beechum's Everything Homebrewing:


Budweiser clone, recipe formulated by Doug King. Why make a homebrew that tastes like Budweiser you ask? Valid question my frend and heres the answer. The challenge. This beer is difficult to make because of the double mash going on at the same time. (the rice and the grain) Pain in the arse! Keg's of this beer go quick.

Recipe Stats



Brewed By:
Rick Burnside



Brew Date:
01/01/2011



Classic Style:
Standard American lager



Original Gravity:
1.048 O.G.



Final Gravity:
1.008 F.G.



Batch Size:
22.0 gallons



IBUs:
19.0 IBUs



SRM:
2.3 SRM



ABV:
5.00% ABV



Boil Time:
60 minutes
Pre-Boil

Malt/Grain/Sugar/Extract:



11# Domistic two-row
10# Domistic six-row
10# Long grain rice
2# Cara-pils (dextrine malt)
1.5 oz. Nugget 13aa 60min


Mashing Instructions:



let grain rest at 120 before working with rice, rice should be milled to resemble malt-o-meal. Bring 5 gal. to boil, add rice, stir until thick, turn off heat, lower temp of rice with cold water to 150 and add 2# milled two-row, let set 20 minuets, turn heat back on and bring rice to boil, stiring constantly, do not let rice scorch, this is very important and also very labor intensive, once rice has boiled for 5 minuets turn heat off and add rice to main mash, use gloves, once rice has been stired in to main mash temp should be very close to 148, mash one hour,


Hops:



The hops for this beer are brewers preference, since IBU's are very low in this brew 8-15, flavor and aroma hops are not needed.


Extra Ingredients:



Dilute carbon filterd tap water with 50-50 mix distilled water.


Yeast:



I prefer wyeast #2007 Pilsen lager yeast

 

[mooshimanx]

Nevermind. Answered already.

 

[agslax]

Here's a clone recipe from Drew Beechum's Everything Homebrewing:


Budweiser clone, recipe formulated by Doug King. Why make a homebrew that tastes like Budweiser you ask? Valid question my frend and heres the answer. The challenge. This beer is difficult to make because of the double mash going on at the same time. (the rice and the grain) Pain in the arse! Keg's of this beer go quick.

A few questions on this:

IBUs:
19.0 IBUs

I have always seen closer to 12 IBU, is this right?

10# Long grain rice

As in grocery store rice?

Mashing Instructions:



let grain rest at 120 before working with rice, rice should be milled to resemble malt-o-meal. Bring 5 gal. to boil, add rice, stir until thick, turn off heat, lower temp of rice with cold water to 150 and add 2# milled two-row, let set 20 minuets, turn heat back on and bring rice to boil, stiring constantly, do not let rice scorch, this is very important and also very labor intensive, once rice has boiled for 5 minuets turn heat off and add rice to main mash, use gloves, once rice has been stired in to main mash temp should be very close to 148, mash one hour,

Can anyone share references to double mash brewing? I am confused as it sounds like you are boiling the 2-row.

 

[BigEd]

A few questions on this:





I have always seen closer to 12 IBU, is this right?

10-12 IBU is what Budweiser actually is. For personal taste or to perhaps make the beer standout more in a judging increasing the IBU is common.

As in grocery store rice?

Yes, just plain old rice. Buying from an ethnic market or warehouse club rather than a chain supermarket can save you a few bucks here.

Can anyone share references to double mash brewing? I am confused as it sounds like you are boiling the 2-row.

The second mash is a cereal mash to cook and gelatinize the rice. In this case the cereal mash if finished with a decotion boil to add temperature to the main mash.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

10-12 IBU is what Budweiser actually is. For personal taste or to perhaps make the beer standout more in a judging increasing the IBU is common.

Yes, just plain old rice. Buying from an ethnic market or warehouse club rather than a chain supermarket can save you a few bucks here.

The second mash is a cereal mash to cook and gelatinize the rice. In this case the cereal mash if finished with a decotion boil to add temperature to the main mash.

Would Minute Rice be useable here to about having to do the cereal mash (like done in Cream of Three Crops)

 

[BigEd]

Would Minute Rice be useable here to about having to do the cereal mash (like done in Cream of Three Crops)

Yes.

 

[roastquake]

You dont have to do a cereal mash on instant/minute rice, it can be added to straight in with a single infusion

 

[agslax]

What about with rice flakes or rice syrup solids?

 

[roastquake]

The idea behind any flaked cereal gain is that they are pre-cooked so no special mashing is required save maybe a protein rest. Instant rice is no different it's just pre-cooked so you can just add it to hot water, let it sit, and eat it. I think the syrup solids can go right in the boil, I've never used it because rice is so much cheaper.

 

[Fuzzymittenbrewing]

You dont have to do a cereal mash on instant/minute rice, it can be added to straight in with a single infusion

That's what I meant but stupid auto correct changed it to about instead of avoid. Ugh

 

[agslax]

let grain rest at 120 before working with rice, rice should be milled to resemble malt-o-meal. Bring 5 gal. to boil, add rice, stir until thick, turn off heat, lower temp of rice with cold water to 150 and add 2# milled two-row, let set 20 minuets, turn heat back on and bring rice to boil, stiring constantly, do not let rice scorch, this is very important and also very labor intensive, once rice has boiled for 5 minuets turn heat off and add rice to main mash, use gloves, once rice has been stired in to main mash temp should be very close to 148, mash one hour,

Getting time to brew and I want to clarify in case this is the route I go.

While all but 2 pounds of the two-row is resting in 120 degree water, add milled rice to 5 gallons of boiling water in a separate pot.

Stir, turn off heat, and lower temp to 150.

Add 2 pounds of two-row in a grain bag to the rice/water and let sit for 20 minutes.

Remove grain, turn heat back on, and bring rice and water back to a boil. After 5 minutes, turn off heat and add rice and all liquid to the main mash that has been sitting near 120. Let all this sit for one more hour before lautering.

Is this correct? I am mostly concerned with the 2 lbs of two-row in the rice and what that is supposed to do.

 

[roastquake]

Hmm I should have reviewed that before posting, It's different from what I read in the book, sorry. Here's exactly how I do a cereal mash with rice, it's different still, but easier and works the same without having two mashes going:

1. I boil the rice in my mash water for about 10 minutes, stirring to avoid scorching

2. bring the temp down to 120 and add 6-row, allow for a protein rest, raise temp to 150 to allow the highly-enzymatic 6-row to start working on the rice for about 30 minutes.

3. add the rest on the malt (2-row and whatever specialty grains) and mash as usual

It makes for a long brew-day

you may want to use some rice hulls to avoid a stuck lauter/sparge.

Or you could avoid this altogether by using flaked or intstant rice. That's what I've done for last two cream ales (which where VERY close to Bud). Just do a single infusion, you can add the processed rice right in... so easy compared to a cereal mash, and it tastes the same in the end.

Again, sorry for causing confusion

 

[roastquake]

The five gallons was throwing me off, looks like that was an 10 gallon recipe given

 

[progmac]

cry havoc (white labs 862) is also rumored to be the budweiser strain

 

[agslax]

Hmm I should have reviewed that before posting, It's different from what I read in the book, sorry. Here's exactly how I do a cereal mash with rice, it's different still, but easier and works the same without having two mashes going:

1. I boil the rice in my mash water for about 10 minutes, stirring to avoid scorching

2. bring the temp down to 120 and add 6-row, allow for a protein rest, raise temp to 150 to allow the highly-enzymatic 6-row to start working on the rice for about 30 minutes.

3. add the rest on the malt (2-row and whatever specialty grains) and mash as usual

It makes for a long brew-day

you may want to use some rice hulls to avoid a stuck lauter/sparge.

Or you could avoid this altogether by using flaked or intstant rice. That's what I've done for last two cream ales (which where VERY close to Bud). Just do a single infusion, you can add the processed rice right in... so easy compared to a cereal mash, and it tastes the same in the end.

Again, sorry for causing confusion

Not a problem! I will probably go the flaked rice or syrup route, but I wanted to know just in case I couldn't get me hands on them tonight or if I was up to the challenge. Thanks again for your time!