bubblegum in 2nd AG batch

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ilikeguns

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My 2nd AG batch has some off flavors (bubblegum) and I could use some input.

The background:
An IPA that started off with a 3L starter of 1056
OG 1.070
FG 1.010 (my lowest FG ever?)
Fermented at 65-68 degrees

I sampled it right before kegging tonight and it definitely has an off flavor that i've never experienced before. The bubble gum flavor

Where I think I went wrong...
I did a full boil and did not do any aeration on my wort. My ferm temps were inline so I have to think that the yeast were stressed.

So now I ask the experts for some feedback. I kegged this batch and put it on a few pounds of CO2. Should I have racked to a secondary and let the yeast possibly clean up? Any chances of these flavors fading away? I had my last batch have a "nutty" flavor which i attributed to the aciduated malt and that flavor mellowed out but is still present. Perhaps the bubble gum will subside? any thoughts while i relax and enjoy a homebrew?
 

daksin

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Bubblegum is a yeast product. What yeast did you use, and how did you treat it?

Did you pitch the correct number of yeast cells, give them enough oxygen, and control your fermentation temperatures in any way? Any yeast related flavors won't age out once the beer is packaged- you need to let the beer clean up in primary before doing anything else, for future knowledge. It may mellow a bit, but probably won't disappear.
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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@slakwhere: I've read that thread, definitely something to be learned. (below is where i'm at now.. i might be too late to follow in revvy's steps)

yeast was 1056.. sanitation was good. Starter was a 3L which i then decanted. I really think that the aeration was to blame.

Anything I can do from here? I kegged it and purged the headspace in the keg with CO2 and stuck it in the fridge. Should I open it up again to get a little 02 in there and let it sit at 66 degrees for a while or is it a lost cause?

I have another batch in the fermenter that needs another week or two, so this batch isn't mission critical. Would just like to learn something from it.

Thanks all!
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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k.. it sat in the fridge for about 24 hours, but now it's sitting in the keg where it will be for a few weeks to a month. We'll see what happens.
 

Yooper

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Esters don't tend to age out. My guess is that fermentation did get over 68 degrees, probably at least 75 degrees inside the fermenter, and produced "bubblegum" flavors. Not much you can do about it now, but next time keep an eye on a "stick on" thermometer on the fermenter and make sure it doesn't get above 72 degrees with 1056, and lower is better!
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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Esters don't tend to age out. My guess is that fermentation did get over 68 degrees, probably at least 75 degrees inside the fermenter, and produced "bubblegum" flavors. Not much you can do about it now, but next time keep an eye on a "stick on" thermometer on the fermenter and make sure it doesn't get above 72 degrees with 1056, and lower is better!
The one thing I can be sure about was that the main batch was not fermented at too high of a temperature. 1056 is my primary yeast and I have had batches that have gone to the low 70's (for a short time) w/o any off flavors.

Now that I think about it though, I never monitored the starter temperature, which is in my kitchen and a few degrees warmer than the room I ferment in. Even though I decanted my starter, could that have caused the bubblegum flavor?

One other thing to note, is that on every other batch I've ever done, I've needed a blowoff tube where as this problem batch, the krausen never even made it to the top of the bucket. I can't help but feel that the improper aeration stressed the yeast to and that is where the off flavors come from.
 

InLimbo

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The one thing I can be sure about was that the main batch was not fermented at too high of a temperature. 1056 is my primary yeast and I have had batches that have gone to the low 70's (for a short time) w/o any off flavors.

Now that I think about it though, I never monitored the starter temperature, which is in my kitchen and a few degrees warmer than the room I ferment in. Even though I decanted my starter, could that have caused the bubblegum flavor?
I'm not so sure it's temperature related. Like was previously stated, you would have had to ferment pretty dang high and it sounds like you have a good control over your process.

The first thing I thought of with bubble gum was pitching rate, and I'm thinking you possibly over pitched. Can you describe your starter procedure? Is it on a stir plate? Is it aerated? If yes to either of these, you definitely over pitched because you over propagated. A 3L starter that was aerated has roughly twice the amount of cells as the same 3L starter that was just left alone. Heck, intermittent shaking alone can drastically increase the cell count.

The last thing I was thinking is that you made a starter with 1056, which is a smack pack, right? Maybe you got accelerated growth prior to putting it into the starter. These are all possibilities, and who knows which one it is. But my money is on the fact that it was over pitched.

One other thing to note, is that on every other batch I've ever done, I've needed a blowoff tube where as this problem batch, the krausen never even made it to the top of the bucket. I can't help but feel that the improper aeration stressed the yeast to and that is where the off flavors come from.
You're on the right track, but diacetly or butter/butterscotch is the flavor for stressed yeast. Bubblegum is a flavor associated with pitching rate.

As you have also stated you should really aerate a beer that high in gravity, although I don't know if that was the smoking gun culprit of what happened here. Maybe under aeration in conjunction with (slight) over-pitching was what happened here. Hope this helped :mug:
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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overpitching? hmm.. truthfully, I didn't even know that was a risk? In the past (according to most yeast calculators) I have always underpitched. For most of my 5 gallon batches (probably only 10 or so), about 7 of those were only a single smack pack and I never had any off flavors. All of my extract/partial mash batches never had even a hint of an off flavor. Last batch had a nutty flavor but that was probably the acid malt i used. This one had the bubblegum flavor. I'm going to dry hop my most recent batch and take a reading.. hopefully it's clean.

For this problem batch, I did a full 3L starter from a fresh 1056 smack pack in a 1 gallon growler and did stir it occasionally (no stir plate). The batch before used washed yeast from a previous batch although i'll never know how much of the yeast was viable. Temps may have gotten a bit higher than normal, but nothing out of the normal.

I really appreciate all the help
 

ISUBrew79

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I don't think you overpitched. I ran the numbers for your batch in Jamil's Pitching Rate Calculator. Even though you shook the starter occasionally, I would still tend to consider it a "Simple Starter". The calculator says you need a 3.08 L starter for 5 gallons of 1.070 wort with one smack pack of yeast (assuming the yeast vial was manufactured today and at 96% viability.)

How do you control your fermentation temperatures? Are the temperatures you mention the ambient temperatures or the actual temperatures of the fermenting beer?
 

HungerJack

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Call it a Belgian IPA? (I'm currently drinking a Victory Golden Monkey, which has some bubblegum notes)
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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okay.. so just tested the most recent batch in my primary from the hydrometer reading.. no off tastes or flavors. Aside from the hop schedule, the only difference was the aeration. Temps have been steady.

Gonna chalk this up to aeration. I'll update this thread in a few weeks after I carb and sample the problem batch. Thanks everyone for your help.
 
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ilikeguns

ilikeguns

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k.. it sat in the fridge for about 24 hours, but now it's sitting in the keg where it will be for a few weeks to a month. We'll see what happens.
Okay.. patience isn't my strong suit. I drew a sample and it's gone. Nothing. Nada. Wasn't sure so I had my wife sample it to confirm (she also tasted the bubblegum flavor in the previous one).

So strange but I'm psyched!
 

kpr121

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This is good news because I just tasted my Pliny Clone (brewed on xmas eve) and got some bubblegum aroma and flavor. Hoping it goes away in a little while.
 
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