Brutus 10 Wiring

[fighteroffoo03]

I just completed the wiring on my Brutus 10 clone today and everything works perfectly. All the wiring has been integrated into the frame . I am concerned about the integrity of the wires' insulation near the intersection of the front right leg and the control arm. During testing, the metal got extremely hot (duh!) as well as the wires inside I would imagine. Does anyone have any suggestion as to how to keep the insulation from melting?

 

[CodeRage]

what kind of wire did you use? MTW, THHN, and TFFN are rated to 194 deg f. So, you'll need to figure out how it the frame is getting.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

I just completed the wiring on my Brutus 10 clone today and everything works perfectly. All the wiring has been integrated into the frame . I am concerned about the integrity of the wires' insulation near the intersection of the front right leg and the control arm. During testing, the metal got extremely hot (duh!) as well as the wires inside I would imagine. Does anyone have any suggestion as to how to keep the insulation from melting?

Do you have any pics? Cus I didn't bring my wiring out at the top of that leg. I brought it out about 5" below the top frame on that leg, kinda directly behind the control panel on the side. The top frame gets WAY too hot for wiring... I'd love to see some pics!

 

[CodeRage]

You know, the best person to ask would be brew beamer. He is uber knowledgeable about what type of wire/insulator and jacketing is needed for what app.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Wrap your wiring in this heat dissipative sleeve (This is good to 1000* F):

McMaster-Carr

 

[BrewBeemer]

Wrap your wiring in this heat dissipative sleeve (This is good to 1000* F):

McMaster-Carr

Sorry I was in the hospital the past 37 hours back pain problems went beyond regular pain medication control.

Unless the above "dissipative sleeve" has a pressurized cooling system with the opposite end of the sleeves temperature still within the wires insulation maximum rating it is a useless sleeve. Time and heat will build up. On the good side this is a gas heated brewing system hence all control wires of #18 to #14 AWG zone not AWG in the #10 to #6 AWG. This alone allows for many more selections in wire insulation properties.
Fluorinated ethylene propylene (FEPB) 200*C /392*F avilable from 14 to 2 AWG. Outer covering of glass braid. This was required in a the foundries I have been stuck working on, yes you will itch from the glass fibers if working in 120*F plus temps with open sweat pores on your arms.

Mineral Insulation (metal sheathed) 250*C / 482*F, 9-4, 3-500MCM rather way out there for your control use plus a copper or alloy steel outer covering.
This would be not an option.
Perfluoroalkoxy (PFAH) 250*C / 482*F, 14 AAG to 4/0. Not cheap.

Modified ethylene tetrafluoroethylene ( Z) or (ZW) 150*C, 302*F, 14 AWG to 4/0 and #2 AWG.

Bottom line the insulation inside a conduit run or any other protected chamber, splice box or control panel you must be at or below the wires maximum insulation temperature. Besides that if your under a load you must derate the amperage of the wires rating as the temperature rises until you have peaked the AWG of that conductor.

Check for aviation surplus stores as they may have high temp insulated wire as a source for your needs.

The lowest cost would be fiber glass insulated wire that's operated within it's maximum insulation rating besides it is available in smaller AWG sizes for your control needs, this includes (TFFN) fixture wire. All the above will cost you, the best and lowest cost would be to go with glass fiber insulated wiring. It sounds like your operating at a temperature of not if but when the insulation of the wire your using will melt going to ground or cross feeding causing controller or other damage to your equipment. Hey i've been out of the trade since 10-2002 fighting for my SSD award, down to the legal paperwork now as "Award Approved". Again sorry for the delay reply.
inera

 

[Sawdustguy]

Sorry I was in the hospital the past 37 hours back pain problems went beyond regular pain medication control.

Unless the above "dissipative sleeve" has a pressurized cooling system with the opposite end of the sleeves temperature still within the wires insulation maximum rating it is a useless sleeve. Time and heat will build up. On the good side this is a gas heated brewing system hence all control wires of #18 to #14 AWG zone not AWG in the #10 to #6 AWG. This alone allows for many more selections in wire insulation properties.
Fluorinated ethylene propylene (FEPB) 200*C /392*F avilable from 14 to 2 AWG. Outer covering of glass braid. This was required in a the foundries I have been stuck working on, yes you will itch from the glass fibers if working in 120*F plus temps with open sweat pores on your arms.

Mineral Insulation (metal sheathed) 250*C / 482*F, 9-4, 3-500MCM rather way out there for your control use plus a copper or alloy steel outer covering.
This would be not an option.
Perfluoroalkoxy (PFAH) 250*C / 482*F, 14 AAG to 4/0. Not cheap.

Modified ethylene tetrafluoroethylene ( Z) or (ZW) 150*C, 302*F, 14 AWG to 4/0 and #2 AWG.

Bottom line the insulation inside a conduit run or any other protected chamber, splice box or control panel you must be at or below the wires maximum insulation temperature. Besides that if your under a load you must derate the amperage of the wires rating as the temperature rises until you have peaked the AWG of that conductor.

Check for aviation surplus stores as they may have high temp insulated wire as a source for your needs.

The lowest cost would be fiber glass insulated wire that's operated within it's maximum insulation rating besides it is available in smaller AWG sizes for your control needs, this includes (TFFN) fixture wire. All the above will cost you, the best and lowest cost would be to go with glass fiber insulated wiring. It sounds like your operating at a temperature of not if but when the insulation of the wire your using will melt going to ground or cross feeding causing controller or other damage to your equipment. Hey i've been out of the trade since 10-2002 fighting for my SSD award, down to the legal paperwork now as "Award Approved". Again sorry for the delay reply.
inera

I dissagree with you BrewBeemer about this product. It is designed as a heat insulator for the cable inside from heat without pressurized cooling. Here are the characteristics below

Type Heat Dissipating
Material Fiberglass
Fiberglass Type Standard
Flame Retardant? No
Construction Braided
Wall Thickness .23"
Length Cut-to-Length
Low Temperature Range -75° to -51° F
Low Temperature (-75° to -51° F) -60° F
High Temperature Range 500° to 999° F
High Temperature (500° to 999° F) 600° F
Color Blue

 

[BrewBeemer]

I dissagree with you BrewBeemer about this product. It is designed as a heat insulator for the cable inside from heat without pressurized cooling. Here are the characteristics below

Type Heat Dissipating
Material Fiberglass
Fiberglass Type Standard
Flame Retardant? No
Construction Braided
Wall Thickness .23"
Length Cut-to-Length
Low Temperature Range -75° to -51° F
Low Temperature (-75° to -51° F) -60° F
High Temperature Range 500° to 999° F
High Temperature (500° to 999° F) 600° F
Color Blue

I find it hard to believe "Heat Dissipating" made of "Fiberglass" material that can have a long time period of exposure to external heat without transfering it to the internal area of this tubing without reaching a heat soak or saturation point. This will bring the wires insulation beyond its maximum rated temperature rating. I sure as hell have run thousands of feet of fiberglass insulated wire in conduit in hot sections like glass bottling plants without an inch of this "heat dissipating" tubing material. I bet you can guess which system of wiring around a hot section would be the most practical cost wise especially for a home brewer not alone a Industrial Foundry or Bottle Manufacturing Plant with deep pockets? The specs we went by at bottling glass plant hot sections was only fiberglass insulated wiring. I would still go with fiberglass unless I had too much money for that "heat Dissipating" tubing as well the connectors at each end. Price it out against fiberglass insulated wire by the foot. Not to start a pissing war just what I have used in the trade as a wireman in the past. JMO on what's practical in cost as well risk as I can see that tubing protecting the wiring during a short time period not a long time like a boil. Again JMO's. One stainless tube inside another with the two sealed with a space between each and a vacuum pulled down then sealed would prevent a long term heat soak transfer, cost of this would be a wow. One less worry with a fully electric heated brewing system. Same as 10 ways to pipe a building, all meet the final result just some ways are better.
I can see it now, EE's vs those that install electrical equipment AKA wiremen, the on going battle between the two. hats off to bull 8042 being both and understanding the practical part of the electrical trade. As I said before i'm not looking for a pissing war just a practical way to correct a problem by the OP in my replies. Cheers.

 

[bull8042]

Ok Carl, you called me out so I guess I am going to have to offer up an opinion.
The ratings shown for the sleeve mean that the sleeve itself will definitely handle the heat without any problems. They do not however, indicate how much heat is conducted or prevented from conducting into the wiring contained inside. This may possibly make it adequate for the OP's application however, but I don't think it will keep the conductors themselves cool by any means. It will keep the wires from coming in direct contact with the hot frame. But there will still be a lot of heat inside the sleeve in my opinion.
The reason I say this, as the sleeve is exposed to extreme heat on its exterior, "some" will be transferred through the material itself, thereby heating the air contained inside. With no air flow through the sleeve, the air will rise in temp until it reaches some equilibrium. What that temp would be, I don't know. But it will not keep the conductors completely cool. I think the final outcome would be positive though if for no other reason than to prevent direct contact of the wiring with the frame.
As long as the OP used wiring that is insulated like THHN and not something with a lower temp rating (MTW i.e), I would think it should provide adequate protection.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Good morning bull; about time I got your attention. First off you doing ok on your recovery from that accident? Remember what I said about not taking a quick close or settlement, this is always preached by an attorney on KGO radio 810 AM in San francisco. His practice is elderly and injury law. Soft tissue injury takes time and will later become a arthritic starting point. Trust me my injuries have later become these starting arthritis locations 12 years up the road and over 21 year ago now. This plus my shoulders shot from 4" conduit bending now has it's rewards. This all added to my SSD case battle.

Back to topic here, Sawdustguy called the manufacture and has PM'ed me.
He stated that the tubing manufacture stated this tubing would not work in this application. This from the heat shield tubing manufacture. So we now have two members with a hot frame rail sections with wires inside for controls and pump power. The cheapest way out would be to just run fiberglass insulated wire and be done with it. First I would use a IR gun after running the burner at full output and read the frame leg temp to verify that fiberglass insulated wire is within it's safe temp limit range.
With 3.5 gallon Blue Rino in my area with a bottle exchange only at $29.99. The electric heating I used in the past even on starter contactors plus the next unit with BCS 460 control i'll stay full electric again.