Brutus 10 frame questions

[dudasaj]

I'm sketching up my brutus 10ish plans. I have seen build threads where they used 1.5x1.5 inch square tubing and i have also seen threads where they used .065 pipe wall tubing.

Does anyone have arguments against 1.5" tubing or using .065 or .083 wall thickness. I want a safe sturdy stand but .120 seems heavy.

 

[FreebootersBrewing]

I used the .065" wall thickness tubing for my frame. I'm still working on my system and haven't had full kettles on it yet. But from what I've been told the .065" is plenty.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I'm sketching up my brutus 10ish plans. I have seen build threads where they used 1.5x1.5 inch square tubing and i have also seen threads where they used .065 pipe wall tubing.

Does anyone have arguments against 1.5" tubing or using .065 or .083 wall thickness. I want a safe sturdy stand but .120 seems heavy.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to use .120 wall steel square tube. Out of curiousity I just took a look at the price difference between .083 wall and .120 wall 1.5" steel square tube. I used a 6' length as an example. At Metalsdepot.com the .120 wall tubing is actually cheaper by $0.66. For a 6' length, they are getting $15.18 for .120 wall and $15.18 for .083 wall. If .065 will do ya, it is $12.54 for a 6' length. I guess it depends what size batches you will be brewing in terms of weight.

 

[dudasaj]

I'm sketching up my brutus 10ish plans. I have seen build threads where they used 1.5x1.5 inch square tubing and i have also seen threads where they used .065 pipe wall tubing.

Does anyone have arguments against 1.5" tubing or using .065 or .083 wall thickness. I want a safe sturdy stand but .120 seems heavy.

Bump.... Anyone else with input

 

[pickles]

if you brace it well to break up the spans you'll be fine with that.

 

[Cede]

.065 is enough.
I had one stand made with .065 and I could jump on it and it will never bend.

It was from some "recycled" steel from an old frame and mig soldered.

 

[sigmund]

I'm sketching up my brutus 10ish plans. I have seen build threads where they used 1.5x1.5 inch square tubing and i have also seen threads where they used .065 pipe wall tubing.

Does anyone have arguments against 1.5" tubing or using .065 or .083 wall thickness. I want a safe sturdy stand but .120 seems heavy.

Build it with the lighter gauge steel, you should be fine. If you get done and don't feel the span is supported as you would like, add an additional set of legs mid-span.

 

[Randar]

Build it with the lighter gauge steel, you should be fine. If you get done and don't feel the span is supported as you would like, add an additional set of legs mid-span.

+1

Talked to Lonnie directly about the 2x2x0.12 and his feelings on the stability of using lighter steel or smaller diameter tubing. Definitely felt you can get away with something lighter. I am trying to cut some weight out of the thing so I can more easily transport/move/store the thing.

I would feel fine with even using a smaller dimensioned steel tubing (1.5x1.5x14ga), but it is all up to the builder.


At my local metal tube supplier I get the following quotes per 20 foot section:

1.5"x1.5"x14ga = $32
1.5"x1.5"x1/8" = $45
2"x2"x14ga = $43
2"x2"x1/8" = $61

So, you can see that materials cost for the steel (in my local case) would be about half the cost to go with the smallest listed of these 4 options compared to the original Brutus plans (keep in mind these prices are not for stainless steel, duh).

In my case, I may mix and match to use heavier duty on the main structure but to go with the smaller diameter on cross braces and supports. Have not yet finalized, though.

 

[dudasaj]

If anything, you could get away with thinner pipe walls on the vertical pieces. The thicker pipe walls would be more important in the horizontal pieces for supporting weight when heated.

I am probably going to use 1.5x1.5x.065 or 1.5x1.5x.083. Then powder coat it.

I'm even toying around with the idea of attaching a cabinet on the one end. I'd use it to store the propane tank, hoses, lids, false bottom, ect.

 

[dudasaj]

I also need some inline propane regulators. I'd like to run 10inch (210,000btu) banjo burners on the HLT and boil kettle, and a 10psi (50000btu) burner on the MLT. It looks like the banjos run 20-30psi.

 

[sigmund]

Then powder coat it.

You realize that you will probably burn the powder coating off around the burners.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I have a pipe rack built on my truck out of 1 x 1 x 1/8" square tubing. I can put a house on it. I've had 1,250# on it and had no issues. I have no idea why everyone makes their brutus stands out of such over kill material.

 

[Cede]

I have no idea why everyone makes their brutus stands out of such over kill material.

May be because brutus means brutal, heavy who knows :rockin:

 

[dudasaj]

You realize that you will probably burn the powder coating off around the burners.

The 1.5 or 2 inch square pipe is for surface area. I want a safe stable surface. 1/8" is .125 which is heavier pipe wall than i am planning.

I'm also planning a collar that will double as mounting bracket for the burner and a partial heat shield.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I have no idea why everyone makes their brutus stands out of such over kill material.

Me neither. The Brutus is the most over-engineered (and over-hyped) design out there. I also don't really understand the infatuation with using ALL stainless. It's just not worth the extra cost. You can paint/powder coat mild steel and have a fine stand for far less money. If you're worried about burning the paint/powder coat, then use stainless sparingly where heat will be a factor. I'm using 0.065" wall 1-1/2" mild steel square tube for my rig build (all electric). I can jump up and down on any of the cross-members without any bending, breaking, cracking, etc. Regardless of the stainless vs mild steel debate, 1/8" wall tubing is bigtime overkill and just makes for a really heavy, expensive stand.

 

[dudasaj]

Which size burner should i use?

I'm torn between the 20 jet and the 88 jet burner

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I literally laughed out loud.... haven't used any of them. I have a feeling more is better right?

Go with the 88. That way if you ever need to travel into space you can flip your stand over and use it as a rocket.

 

[Randar]

that was my reaction as well. 88 Jet burner must be about 400k BTU! LOL!

Edit: Looked it up and it is 880k BTU! BWAAAHAHA!

 

[dudasaj]

the 88 tip is 880,000 BTU

 

[humann_brewing]

the 88 tip is 880,000 BTU

holy bat turds. I think that would heat your garage to beyond comfortable levels :cross:

 

[Dog House Brew]

Me neither. The Brutus is the most over-engineered (and over-hyped) design out there. I also don't really understand the infatuation with using ALL stainless. It's just not worth the extra cost. You can paint/powder coat mild steel and have a fine stand for far less money. If you're worried about burning the paint/powder coat, then use stainless sparingly where heat will be a factor. I'm using 0.065" wall 1-1/2" mild steel square tube for my rig build (all electric). I can jump up and down on any of the cross-members without any bending, breaking, cracking, etc. Regardless of the stainless vs mild steel debate, 1/8" wall tubing is bigtime overkill and just makes for a really heavy, expensive stand.

I totally agree. Do you have a thread showing your build? Love the all electric build and see it in the distance for me..........way in the distance

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I forgot to include the price of the tubing in my rig. I went to a local supplier and paid just over $50 for 72 linear feet of square tube. I used roughly half of it for the rig pictured.

The build is chronicled in the latter portion of this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/yuris-brew-yurt-hut-107502/

 

[Cede]

I'm torn between the 20 jet and the 88 jet burner

I falled of the chair when I read 88 means 880 000 Btus !!!
Did you stole it to the Nasa ?
With the 88 you could cook a giant chilli for 800 !

Well, I you can afford the tank and the refill of LPG to go with that, you should be able to vaporize your batch in a few seconds
And don't forget the ear plugs when you light up the giant rocket engine !

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Me neither. The Brutus is the most over-engineered (and over-hyped) design out there. I also don't really understand the infatuation with using ALL stainless. It's just not worth the extra cost. You can paint/powder coat mild steel and have a fine stand for far less money. If you're worried about burning the paint/powder coat, then use stainless sparingly where heat will be a factor. I'm using 0.065" wall 1-1/2" mild steel square tube for my rig build (all electric). I can jump up and down on any of the cross-members without any bending, breaking, cracking, etc. Regardless of the stainless vs mild steel debate, 1/8" wall tubing is bigtime overkill and just makes for a really heavy, expensive stand.

Wow. I don't hardly even post here and I feel like I have stole your thunder! Seems like Brutus is really getting under your skin lately my friend. Do you really need two motorcycles, or did you just do that by choice?

 

[Randar]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's over-engineered, but I think it is probably overly elegant for it's needed use and is certainly heavier duty than needed. Is stainless steel and 2x2x.120 really required? No, but it looks nice if you can afford it and don't mind the weight. Do you have to plumb it so the back cross brace is the gas line itself? No, but it sure looks like fun to try, IMO!

But in other areas you could certainly go bigger. You could go with more elaborate electronic automation, measurement, variable valve control, 88-tip jet burner , etc.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's over-engineered, but I think it is probably overly elegant for it's needed use and is certainly heavier duty than needed. Is stainless steel and 2x2x.120 really required? No, but it looks nice if you can afford it and don't mind the weight. Do you have to plumb it so the back cross brace is the gas line itself? No, but it sure looks like fun to try, IMO!

But in other areas you could certainly go bigger. You could go with more elaborate electronic automation, measurement, variable valve control, 88-tip jet burner , etc.

Ha! You would only need one burner!!

Sorry friends. I have explained my reasonings here before as to why "I" went with .120, and have expressed that it is not totally needed. Most recently, I expressed this directly to Yuri in another thread as to why I (me) used .120 stainless 2 X 2... So rather than he referencing the thread where I addressed this to the other "overkill" remarks here, seems more opportune to pile on the heap again. Cool...

I think just yesterday, a friend on this forum here explained that he talked to me directly, and I told him that .120 is not really necessary and the reasons that I went that route...

So it's all cool with me really... There are at least dang near a couple hundred Brutus type systems around the world now. A hundred of which I have pictures of on my website link below...

Most have taken this overkill frame WAY beyond what I did... Kudos to them...

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Let's hold on for just a sec. Here's that other thread Lonnie mentions:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/cost-build-brutus-10-a-140940/

I have nothing against Lonnie or the basic layout of the Brutus rig. As a matter of fact, I had completely forgotten about that other thread, and it took me a few minutes of searching to dig it up. I'm really not in the business of hurling insults, and I apologize if anyone took anything I said personally.

I applaud you guys for the great DIY work. I just don't want anyone to break the bank (or their back) thinking that they HAVE to use stainless or that they HAVE to use such thick stock.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Let's hold on for just a sec. Here's that other thread Lonnie mentions:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/cost-build-brutus-10-a-140940/

I have nothing against Lonnie or the basic layout of the Brutus rig. As a matter of fact, I had completely forgotten about that other thread, and it took me a few minutes of searching to dig it up. I'm really not in the business of hurling insults, and I apologize if anyone took anything I said personally.

I applaud you guys for the great DIY work. I just don't want anyone to break the bank (or their back) thinking that they HAVE to use stainless or that they HAVE to use such thick stock.

Thanks my friend... I think I had mentioned in my article, and I forgot to mention in that particular thread, all my stainless cost me less than 200 bucks at that time. 40' of 2 X 2 X .120 for 200 bucks cut. Good gawd those were the days! Unfortunately now, (if you even can get the stuff from China ) It will will cost you way big time. It may not be worth it.

Can't wait to see your build finished. It is going to be Bad A$$!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

If we were honestly engineering these frames for cost efficiency, we would be building them of of 1/2" square tube. However, if we were engineering our systems for cost efficiency, we would be buying Miller at the local grocer. Make what looks awesome to you, that's the name of the game.

btw, I was not kidding about the 1/2" stock, that would literally be fine for our three keggle systems.

 

[dudasaj]

Alright, so thanks for everyone's input. I've decided to use 1.5" square tubing, .065 pipe wall. Here is my plan. Did this on google sketchup. It's A Brutus single tier style. I'm planning on running flexible gas line through the lower-rear beam and up the vertical beam between the #2 and #3 burner. I'll also be running the ignition wire for the #2 burner through the same beams. The gas and ignition wire for #1 will come out of the cabinet directly to the burner. The pump power wires will run through the lower beams. The temperature probes will come out of the front corner of the cabinet. The solenoid valves, propane tank, regulator, and control box are all housed in the cabinet. The main power line will run out of the bottom of the cabinet. There is also a 5th wheel under the cabinet to support the weight of the cabinet. The frame will be finished by powder coating. Then the burners will be mounted in silver sleeves. This will make the burner assembly removable for cleaning, and hopefully act as a heat-shield to protect the powder coating if necessary.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Looks like a fine design. Why two pumps? With a little plumbing, you can save yourself some money and simply use one.

 

[dudasaj]

I designed it to hide as many gas lines and wires as possible. I'd prefer not to have a manifold or excessive exposed piping. I plan on coiling up my hoses in the upper part of the cabinet during storage. I plan on direct fire recirculation for step mashes or mash out, and fly sparging. I think it looks cleaner without installed piping.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm not exactly sure how more pumps equates to less need for plumbing, but if you feel it's worth it, who am I to say you're wrong?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Wow. I don't hardly even post here and I feel like I have stole your thunder! Seems like Brutus is really getting under your skin lately my friend. Do you really need two motorcycles, or did you just do that by choice?

What's wrong with owning just two bikes, I have nine with three more to add to my wish list collection, looking for one for over 25 years alone? And yes I will ride 'em, all street.

I find it totally crazy some of these brew stand builds JMO as I have no need to hold up 18 wheelers for maintenance or lube jobs in my back yard.
As far as thin wall material being too thin to tap into why not add a piece of thicker material in that area, weld it and thread thru it is all that's needed?
If the above frame building was applied how did general aviation small aircraft get off the ground and still be light but structually sound enough to fly?
Powder coating is perfect for an all electric brewing system just more of a PITA when building a gas fired system. I would use stainless boxed frames around the hot burner areas bolted to the powder coated iron frame stand, this for a rust free as well a lower cost stand.

 

[dudasaj]

That's what I designed, except the SS boxes are inserted in the frame and the kettle/keggle will sit on the SS flange.

 

[RonRock]

Just as an FYI for anyone that may want to thread a bolt into thin walled material.

There is a product just for that, I'm familiar with "NutSert" (as I recall the name) mine came from SnapOn or Mac, but I think they are available now at hardware stores. Basically a Pop Rivet with threads inside.

 

[lehr]

Mines made from inch and a half 1/8 wall with a gas beam so theres no black pipe for plumbing I also use nutserts where there are fasteners.
I'm also building an eRIMS addition and trying to hide the wiring.
Yes it's overkill but it's the custom car builder in me.
Like my father in law says make it ( pleasing to the eye ).

Pat